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Mezzanine time

IPACA9

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ATTENTION! You'll have to read through the post and see the major changes from the initial design.

Getting ready to build a mezzanine into my new to me 30x40x14 garage. Have already done the floors with Rust Bullet and now time to add more room. Just looking for ideas from people how to go about it. With the framework extending away from the walls how would you do it? I'm going to build it in a U shape with 10 feet on the ends and 8 feet across the back joining it all.

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Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
 
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andymf

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Sounds a good idea. One of the things you need to watch is that window. There's not a lot of light in the garage as it is and if you build your floor where that window is your blocking another light source.
 

don long

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With all of those post on the ground floor you seem to be loosing the use of that space (IMHO)
Can you get by with less posts if you use bigger posts that extend to the roof?
 
OP
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IPACA9

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Oh I'll definitely be going a different way with less posts. That home depot program is kinda limited. I just wanted a visual idea of what it would look like. I'll be using plywood for flooring most likely as well with carpet over it. Or something.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
 
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IPACA9

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Well I finally started on my build. I got all the lumber and everything back in November but could never get to it.

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I've actually changed the design to have the stairway further back.

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First challenge was to cut the notches out of the 6x6 posts. I found it easier to just feed them into the band saw and then cross cut the notches out with the circular saw.

After getting four posts up I bolted the 2x10 beams to them using Thrulok fasteners which are awesome to use. It's nice building it in 10 foot sections.
f38e901b439d5b50e67808af2a7c4424.jpg
9aed21f79eebb73c73bee0f4e071a885.jpg

Next came the hangers and 2x8 joists.
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One section done.
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Tomorrow I should get more accomplished now that I've gotten the ball rolling.
 
OP
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IPACA9

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The 2x8 joists are 6' 9" long and 16" apart. I'm debating if I should put bracing between them. I'm going to have 3/4 plywood flooring on it and not really going to have anything very heavy up there. It's going to be and area for my boys and I to work on rc planes and other hobby stuff.
 

jimgood

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Just curious, why did you choose to have the stairway away from the wall? Seems like it would be better to put it along the wall.
 
OP
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IPACA9

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I'm still playing with ideas of stair location against the wall or on the outer edge. My thoughts was that anything larger that I wanted to take up there could be achieved if I made it where the handrail could be undone and swung out of the way. I still have a lot to build before I get to that side. Or just have a removable rail section and lift something to it like others have done.
 
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theoldwizard1

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Nice to see people using proper build techniques. Beam set into posts, proper joist hangers. Good stuff ! :thumbup:
 
OP
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IPACA9

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I initially had he 2x10s doubled up. I worked on a guys truck that builds decks and he looked at my design. He asked how wide my decks were and when I told him only seven feet wide he laughed and asked if I was trying to park a car on them. He advised to just go with one 2x10. The back row is going to have shelving storage so I went ahead and doubled them up for the hell of it.
 

tab2

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I like it! Using a band saw on lumber that big is an interesting sight.

If you bought 8 footers for your 2x8s you could use your cut-offs for blocking. I do think it benefit the overall structure.
 
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IPACA9

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I used these Simpson post bases. Which are F'N expensive! $20 a pop they were more than the damn 6x6 post.

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I just mounted them down with two larger tapcons. I didn't want the wood on the ground. My wife had fun drilling them out bigger for the larger screws.

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IPACA9

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I like it! Using a band saw on lumber that big is an interesting sight.

If you bought 8 footers for your 2x8s you could use your cut-offs for blocking. I do think it benefit the overall structure.
After I would cut into it 9 1/4" deep I'd have to hammer a wedge in to get the blade to back out.

I actually bought 16 footers to do just that but with just under a 7' span I'm not sure if I really need it. With only doing a 3/4" plywood top maybe it would be better to do so.
 
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bczygan

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Dammit, dammit dammit!!!!!!!

I HATE this!

You are proceeding with a horrible design.

I wish I could have caught this before you started.

It's not your fault. You had no way of knowing.

There is NO way you should have so many posts. They greatly decrease the usability of the spaces below the mezzanine.

I would be sorely tempted to stop right now, get a good design for the mezzanine, and then dismantle what is there and reuse the materials where I could.

50% of those posts should disappear.

Let's start over.

What use are you going to make of the mezzanine space and the space under it?

I've sent you an email. Please call me. I'll help.

Bill
 
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BaMaDuDe87

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How wide are the stairs going to be? Are you going with the movable handrail for larger objects?
 
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jabin

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Those railings didn't look safe on sketchup so I had to fix em...lol. aa12f4da32c80dc9f2143c0c78e008da.jpg

I was wondering about the location of the stairs. At its current locations it kills the top corner and wall space below the stairs. In an earlier drawing it was on the inside which left the wall for storage or usable and opened up the space below the stairs and valuable wall space, also. Just a thought.
 
OP
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IPACA9

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Stairs are 36" wide now but debating on 42". I kind of went with how wide my basement stairway is and figured I'm cool with that considering how much stuff I've taken up and down them. I'm going to have a removable sections on the left and right sides.
 
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IPACA9

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I was wondering about the location of the stairs. At its current locations it kills the top corner and wall space below the stairs. In an earlier drawing it was on the inside which left the wall for storage or usable and opened up the space below the stairs and valuable wall space, also. Just a thought.

I really beat myself up about where I wanted the stairs but the I was thinking I could build that in under it and maybe put a noisy compressor or other things to be out of sight.
 

matt_i

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I would put metal "X bracing" on the back of a few of the posts, against the back wall. The structure looks prone to racking, and I wouldn't want to rely solely on the building envelope to sturdy it.

Simpson Strong tie makes a roll of flat 16ga bracing that is simply rolled out flat and then nailed up carefully. Its segmented, I think its around 14'6" long between the segments that are designed to be snapped apart. Or, it could even be something like 1/8" x say 1-1/2" hot rolled flat bar.

If you can X-brace 2 of the back wall spaces and then put it on one of the 90 degree columns, this will help out a lot. As is, the mass is high up and while the posts are pinned at the bottom it is not a moment support (as if the post were buried in a sleeve of concrete in a post hole).
 

BaMaDuDe87

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I no expert, but I'd prob go with 42" wide stairs to the inside. Seems like that would give you more room for carrying up wider objects and more room to maneuver once you get to the top landing.

I guess it really depends on what you plan on doing on the garage floor. Storage or more working projects?
 
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IPACA9

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We've priced to have a 20' added to the building from Worldwide Steel Buildings. This would be keeping the existing wall and just having them add onto it. It's a little way in the near future but that new section will become my woodworking and other projects shop and then upstairs will be the mancave lounge. I've had a custom made Peter Vitalie pool table, video games and a bar I built that's been in storage for over 2 years from the old house.
 

bczygan

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Looking at your plan, I see opportunities to simplify the design and save money, while making it more flexible and adaptable to different uses. Mostly this can be done by removing columns and using LVL's instead of dimensional lumber, for longer beam spans. Also, the load capacity of the joists and beams needed to be balanced.

But to start off with, let's look at what you have right now. The first thing I noticed, was that the 2x8 floor joists were sized for a very large load, while the 2x10 beams weren't even adequate for a standard residential floor loading, much less the load that the floor joists could accommodate. And the columns are way over sized as well, although that can be a benefit, allowing for notching to support beams. In addition, there are a large quantity of columns which, besides adding cost and complexity, impinge on the use of free and open space below the mezzanine.

First, let's size the existing joists. I chose hem-fir, because that is the weakest that is generally sold at big box stores. And I'm using L/360 which means the will deflect 1/360th of their span, or 1/4". Be sure to install with the crown up to compensate for this. This deflection limit is a severe restriction of the allowable deflection that allows the installation of drywall ceilings without cracking from movement. You could also do the calculations at L/240 if no drywall ceilings.

Here is what you have:
2x8 #2 hem-fir joists at 16"o.c. will span 8'0" loaded with a 110#/SF uniform load and figuring 10#/SF dead load (The weight of the structure itself), based on a deflection of L/360.

You could have used these to get a 60# live load capability:
2x6 #2 hem-fir joists at 16"o.c. will span 7'11" loaded with a 60#/SF uniform load and figuring 10#/SF dead load (The weight of the structure itself), based on a deflection of L/360.
Remember that residential floors are 40#/SF live load, so 2x6's support half again as much.

I'm not sure how deep you were planning for the mezzanine at the back of the building (Bottom of the U) to be. I'm thinking it could be 10', to match the side wall column spacing. If so, I could calculate the load capacity for the 2x8's at 16"o.c. that you have, based on that span, just in case. But for now I will assume it is an 8' deep space, just like the sides. So in that case, the calculations above hold for the 2x8's your plan proposes, or 2x6's that could also be used.

And I'm figuring the columns that are out at the juncture of the LVL's to be at this point, so I will size the long ones for a worst case condition, as if this is only 8' deep. This means the beams on the side will have a maximum span of 22'. See those selections below.

Next, let's check the 2x10 dimensional lumber beams that go along the walls. On the side walls they span approx. 10'. The contributing area is 4SF/LF. If you use a LL (Live load) of 40#/SF (Typical residential living areas), and 10#/SF DL, then the total load on these beams is 200#/LF. A 2x10 with a Fb of 1300 spanning 10' will support 185#/LF, so a 2x10 is
inadequate. 2 2x8's or a 2x12 would suffice.

Along the back wall they span 12'. If the depth of the mezzanine here is 8', then the contributing area is 4SF/LF. And as above, a 200#/LF load would need support. 2 2x10's would be needed for this span.

The conclusion is that your 2x10 dimensional lumber beams are way undersized for the load your joist size and spacing will accommodate. They are also slightly undersized for the standard residential living space load of 40# live and 10# dead loads. So you can either up size your beams to match the joists, or downsize the joists for a lesser load capacity. You can also set your loads for the beams you have and just have over sized joists or you can size your beams for a particular load and let the joists be what they are. It all depends on your uses up there. From what you are saying, mostly it will be standard residential loading, which is 40#/SF, but you also mentioned liking the idea of putting a couple of quads up there. Perhaps one area can be designed to accommodate that, and the rest for a more standard
load capability. It's all up to you.

As you may be noticing, You can work things backwards and forwards. You can determine the loads your framing will support, or determine the framing you need for any particular loads that you have in mind. The whole idea of engineering is to not overbuild or under build, but to build what is most appropriate. There is nothing wrong with your design with lots of columns, if you don't mind lots of columns. But it is possible with the beams described
below, to eliminate most of the ones in the middle of the floor. In fact, it would be possible to eliminate some of the ones against the outer wall as well. That's what engineering and design can do, simplify and eliminate excess materials and costs. As it stands now, your dimensional lumber beams are the limiting factor for load capacity. By the way, any lumberyard should be able to check these sizes for you.

Now let's size the two 30' long side LVL's (also called Microllam beams). These beams are figured as 1.9E. They told me they can get in any length and would deliver them all for $150 flat rate in my area.
These 30' long beams have only a maximum effective span of 22' if you use the 6x6 columns under it where the other beam connects to them, and if the rear part of the mezzanine is only 8' deep, so I have sized them for that. For the sizing of these beams, see the beam below.


Now for the 24' long beam connecting between the side beams. By the way, if you are worried about the capacity of the LVL (Or microllam) hangers to support this beam, you could bolt a 2x6 to the side of the 6x6 columns, to serve as end supports for this beam.

Since this beam spans 24', I am picking an LVL for that span, and will use that same one for the beams above, since their effective span is 22'.

The contributing areas and loads for these beams is the same as for the existing dimensional lumber beams, which if based on the 40#/SF LL residential loading, is a total load of 200#/LF. A 1 3/4"x16" 1.9E LVL at L/360 will support 121#/LF at 24' span, so a doubled one will suffice for all three beams.

I will describe how to simplify the perimeter beams in a future post. If you use dimensional lumber, they should be sized as mentioned above for the 10' or 12' spans.

Bill
 
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bczygan

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For some examples of price comparisons, here are some prices in my area for the needed dimensional lumber and LVL beams for the 40#/SF LL.
12 2x8x10's at $8.00 = $96
4 2x10x12's at $12.50 = $50
Total of $150

4 30' LVL's at $178.00 = $71214" = $156.00 ea.
2 24' LVL's at $142.50 = $28514" = $125.00 ea.
Total of $997.00 11 7/8" = $112.00 ea.
Total as low as $848.00
So $700 opens up the floor so you can move vehicles 8' to either side, and 8' toward the front, under the mezzanine.

Additional savings can be had by exchanging the 2x8 joists for 2x6 ones which are adequate. 5 less columns.

Update! I made a mistake in the charts and a 14" deep LVL will do. Cross beams could 11 7/8". Prices will reduce.

Bill
 
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DBendr

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I like it right up to the point of plywood.I hate plywood for anything other than forming.
I'd have used expanded metal instead.More light, circulation, no dust trappage.Less weight(not that it matters).
 

bczygan

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One bay of metal X bracing, or plywood sheathing, might be good on each of the three exterior walls.

Edit: There is also some triangulation in the joint where the OP is using two bolts spaced apart and the beam is resting on a shoulder of the column.

Bill
 
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IPACA9

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Just wanted to clear up some measurements.
7d89725dd4a0f347a16519de11a8145d.jpg

I'll have to check local pricing on the LVL beams. My question is how tall are those? From ones I've seen they seem to be pretty tall but I don't know much about them. As it sits right now with the 2x10s my distance from floor up to the beams is roughly 7'3" with the post bases.
 

bczygan

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Just wanted to clear up some measurements.
7d89725dd4a0f347a16519de11a8145d.jpg

I'll have to check local pricing on the LVL beams. My question is how tall are those? From ones I've seen they seem to be pretty tall but I don't know much about them. As it sits right now with the 2x10s my distance from floor up to the beams is roughly 7'3" with the post bases.

16" deep.

I like to set them so that they end up above the finish floor level at least 4", and create a toe kick, so things can't be kicked over the edge. They could actually extend as high as you need, so depth wouldn't matter.

Bill
 

bczygan

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Anyone want to guess what Bill does (or did) for a living ? :thumbup:

I've been a slacker all my life! How did you know?

Actually, I forget that not everyone sees structures in three dimensions in their mind, or can walk through it mentally, thinking how to build it. Guess I picked up a couple dumb ideas while hanging off a drafting board, smoking and joking.

But I'm a ******* with just a little practical experience and no formal training. There are a lot of very knowledgeable degreed and registered guys on here who have depths of knowledge thousands of miles deeper than my scant little pouch full.

Bill
 

bczygan

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Actually, what I do, anyone can do. I use a couple of charts and a calculator on the internet.

First thing to remember is that you can open up spans and spaces larger than you can frame them with dimensional lumber, by going with engineered lumber. And the next step after that is steel.

One thing I like about this kind of steel building, is that it encloses space relatively inexpensively. The trouble with it, is that it isn't engineered to hang much of anything from it. I don't even like attaching a mezzanine like this to it. I'd rather they act independently. If you are building from scratch (The OP didn't), and wanted a substantial mezzanine, I would lean toward a structure that the mezzanine could be integral with, whether wood or steel framed, either stick built, pole barn or red steel or a combo.

Here's the calculator I use for joist sizing:
http://www.awc.org/codes-standards/calculators-software/spancalc

Work it this way. First size the joists for the load and span. Decide on the species and readily available quality level (Usually hem-fir #2 and better), pick the deflection limit (L/240 for no ceiling and L/360 for drywall ceiling), set a spacing (I like 16"o.c. for a 3/4" T&G plywood deck), use a live load you need (#40/SF is typical residential living area floor) and pick an appropriate dead load (10# or 15# for this kind of floor) and then try out different depths (sizes) of joists until you get the span you need. Easy peasy for the joists!

Next step is to size the beams. If a short span, then dimensional lumber will do. First figure the contributing area, which is half the span time one square foot. So if it's 10' between beams, then the contributing area is 5SF (Square feet). Multiply this by the total of live and dead load per square foot. If that's 40# and 10#, then 50# times 5SF of contributing area would be 250# of total load/LF (Lineal foot) of beam loading. You need the total load per lineal foot because the wood beam tables in WSDD list them that way. You go to the span in these tables, pick the column for Fb=1300 (which is a hem-fir value) and select the row next to small w (Which is pounds per lineal foot) that gives at least the capability you need. It can also be a combination of members to get the capacity, like 2 2x8's.

Be careful to look at every condition. Different joist spans mean different contributing areas and different beam spans mean different tables. Of course in any of the charts you need to define every variable including species and it's strength, deflection limit required etc. etc. Here's a link to the WSDD:
http://www.awc.org/pdf/codes-standards/publications/wsdd/AWC-WSDD1986-ViewOnly-0301.pdf


The LVL's are good for longer spans and eliminating columns and are good to use for clear spans, to a point. I use 1.9E for the sizing, as that is what Menards carries. Here, you also need to know the contributing area and loads. In this case you need both the live load and the total load and need to meet the requirements for both. Look up the member or combination of members that meet the needed loads for the span and deflection limit. In the thread above the LL was 160#/LF and the total was 200#/LF. It is easy to miss things in these charts, and I missed the total vs. live thing. Turns out a 14" deep beam will do. And cross beams could be 11 7/8". Here's the link:
http://parr.com/PDFs/LP%20LVL%201.9E.pdf

There's lots of other things to consider when designing connections and checking for other situations like point loads, shear etc. This is just simple uniformly loaded member sizing.

Bill
 
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bczygan

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OP asked about putting a 4wheel ATV up on the mezzanine.

Let's say it weighed 800 pounds.

Let's assume the plywood and joist spacing would adequately spread the weight in a 7'x7' area. That's 49SF x 40#/SF LL capability = 1960#.

Bill
 
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IPACA9

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For some examples of price comparisons, here are some prices in my area for the needed dimensional lumber and LVL beams for the 40#/SF LL.
12 2x8x10's at $8.00 = $96
4 2x10x12's at $12.50 = $50
Total of $150

4 30' LVL's at $178.00 = $71214" = $156.00 ea.
2 24' LVL's at $142.50 = $28514" = $125.00 ea.
Total of $997.00 11 7/8" = $112.00 ea.
Total as low as $848.00
So $700 opens up the floor so you can move vehicles 8' to either side, and 8' toward the front, under the mezzanine.

Additional savings can be had by exchanging the 2x8 joists for 2x6 ones which are adequate. 5 less columns.

Update! I made a mistake in the charts and a 14" deep LVL will do. Cross beams could 11 7/8". Prices will reduce.

Bill
Hey Bill.

Trying to get my head wrapped around the more open LVL concept. You list four of the 30' beams. Would these be all fastened together to form one large beam? If so what are the widths of these? I like the idea of the "toe kick" with mounting the joists lower to achieve a better bottom height considering these are much taller than the 9¼" of the original 2x10s.

If I'm correct in what you mean I'll whip something up with sketchup showing the new framing.
 

Big Daddy Chop Shop

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I am getting ready for a "redesign" of my mez, and this helps a bit for sure. I am cheating, but thats a whole different story

Is this a KY steel building? Looks like it.

I have tried to contact them, as I hav a 30*50*12 and was hoping they had a "kit". Not real impressed, they have never returned a message or email.

Good luck, and FWIW, i love the design. I am an overkill guy, the posts look about right to me, but I am no engineer
 
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