Miller Thunderbolt 225 - STICK vs MIG?

[Vegaman_Dan]

I picked up this used and abused Miller Thunderbolt 225 stick welder at a local auction a couple of months ago. It had definitely seen better days. Case was bent up badly with a lot of dings and dents, leads were missing, power cord chopped off, and the entire interior caked in dirt and grime. The sliding core through the transformer that controls the power output was jammed with gunk and couldn't move.

You can see the deep crease in the case near the top left side of the unit, running front to back. It must have fallen onto something, or something heavy fell on it.



Cleaned up the case and interior, got rid of decades of dirt and grime. Cleaned out the sliding core mechanism, tightened the set screws for the center handle in the carriage assembly, got all the caked on gunk out and lubed with plastic safe grease. It now moves smoothly.

About 30 minutes worth of hammer and dolly on the case got rid of the crease and all the dings and dents. I am kinda tempted to paint it since the metal is in really good shape now.

New leads ($130!) made at Pacific Welding Supply with a good stinger, and a power cord added yielded this:




Okay! So now it is all cleaned up, repaired, and after a few tests, confirmed it's working correctly. Not much can go wrong with these old systems. Even the fan is strong and working well.

But what to DO with it? I prefer MIG with my Hobart. I have a gas setup as well if I ever need that. What uses are there for a stick welder that warrant keeping it versus just using the MIG? I'm not looking for a debate on why one is better than the other- each has its own merits, and that's what I want to find out. What does a stick welder really excel at? How do I justify keeping it?

STICK benefits?

 

[Warrenator]

Use the stick welder for heavy thick steel, stick can penetrate better than mig (unless you have a super huge mig that can do spray transfer welding instead of the usual short circuit kind) Also cast iron repairs go well with special stick electrodes.

Nice job bringing that baby back to life, good for another 50 years now.

 

[Provincial]

As Warrenator said, this machine will weld much thicker steel than anything other than a very large MIG. I have welded 1-1/2" steel plate with a similar-sized machine, using multiple passes. Unless you have a pretty stout MIG, you will need this for anything thicker than sheet metal.

With the right rod, you can weld practically any material. That machine will handle 1/8" 7018AC rod and 5/32" 6011 rod very well. Above those sizes you need to watch your duty cycle and allow plenty of cool-down time to avoid overheating the core.

Since that is an AC-only model, if you use 7018 rod, be sure to get 7018AC. Regular 7018 is designed to work on DC current, and doesn't work well (you can get a good weld with it in a pinch, but it will drive you batty trying to start an arc without sticking and holding a smooth arc) on AC. Some of the more exotic rod is DC only, so ask guidance from your welding supply when buying rod.

That particular model is handy in that you can mount it on the wall using a sturdy shelf, thereby freeing up floor space!

Good score!

 

[Big Pete]

If you weld outside, stick is your friend, migging in a breeze is a recipe for crowshit.

 

[RedneckWelder]

I prefer stick for thicker stuff. The 110v Migs are nice for sheetmetal and thin metal (say up to about 1/8"). The bigger 240v Migs are better with thicker metal but stick really shines on the thick stuff...and the bigger 240v migs tend to cost a pretty penny. Stick is also excellent in the windy conditions that play hell with other welding processes. And I like that it's easy to keep a selection of different rods on hand to handle different metals or situations.

In addition, if it's a DC one you can set it up as a simple scratch start DC tig.

 

[texasfiremedic]

The leads cost you $130 or the whole machine totaling $130?
Stick= better penetration and no worries about wind (up to a point i have been outside and wind was messing with the gas shield). Although you can buy a low penetrating rod that does well on thin metals but not as good as mig.
mig= lower penetration, able to weld thinner metal without blow out (if set correctly), wind not good with mig and will need bottle gas if not using flux core.
Flux core mig basically stick welding but on a smaller scale. Wire size very much smaller than stick welding. No bottle needed. Flux is in the core.

 

[Vegaman_Dan]

$130 on the leads and stinger. I didn't go cheap or lightweight since I might use them on a future welder later.

 

[rsanter]

If it's an AC machine you can use it a power supply for a TIG for aluminum.
Welding and thicker and even dirty or rusty thick metal

I may get slammed for it but.....if you didn't know what you would need or use it for then you shouldn't have spent that much time and money on it

Bob

 

[John in OH]

Everyone else has already pretty well summed up the pros and cons of stick vs. MIG. If you have the typical home shop size Hobart MIG unit you are pretty much limited to a max metal thickness of about 3/16". But stick, with multiple passes, is nearly unlimited.

With MIG you generally have to have pretty clean conditions, but with 6011 rod and a stick welder you can pretty much blast through rust, paint, scale, and other crud and make a decent weld. I don't recommend that you don't do a proper prep whenever possible for stick, but I've had to make some farm equipment repairs where time didn't allow for "doing it right"! Sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do .... and MIG sure wouldn't do it!

Stick will weld metal down to about 16 ga. but it's a slow go and can be quite frustrating. Generally, you'll be limited to tack welds on light gauge.

If you are planning to do only light sheet metal work, body work, or new fab work on clean lighter weight material, then MIG is probably the way to go. If you are going to do maintenance welding or fab work with heavier weight material (ie. > 3/16") then stick will serve you better. IMHO, if I could own only one welder it would be a stick machine.

 

[Professur]

My first thought is ... are you any good at stick? If not, this is the ideal opportunity to remedy that, and (IMO) the ideal machine to do it with. Once you've got some stick time in ... you'll have the answer for all your other questions. I've got a dedicated mig, FCAW and a small stick. Takes some shelf space, but I don't spend much time dusting them either.

 

[bigdave39355]

hate to say it, but if that's all the leads you got for $130 then the counter guy is buying steaks off you tonight.

Dave

 

[Tinner]

If you have a 110V MIG welder, 150 amps or less you'll have the capacity to weld heavier steel. Unfortunately a Thunderbolt is a pretty ****** welder. An AC only one is even worse. Any of the equivalent Lincolns are far better machines. I usually don't have a preference between red and blue, but in the buzz box class, red wins every time.

The only upside to learning on a T-bolt is it makes you appreciate a real welder. I'm not trying to piss on your parade, my first welder was a Thunderbolt, I learned the hard way what a piece of **** it was. They really haven't improved much since 1975 when I bought mine.

Stick with 6010, 6011, and 6013. Use good rod, I'd recommend Lincoln. Remember, it's only a 20% duty cycle machine. T-bolts get hot and weld horribly when you exceed the duty cycle. That's where the difference between them and a Lincoln really shows, the Lincolns take a beating much better.

Once you get to the point where you can run consistent beads, try a Lincoln or one of the better Millers, you'll see what I'm talking about.

 

[Vegaman_Dan]

hate to say it, but if that's all the leads you got for $130 then the counter guy is buying steaks off you tonight.

Dave

Could be, could be, but what is done is done. That was my choice to make.

 

[Vegaman_Dan]

My first thought is ... are you any good at stick? If not, this is the ideal opportunity to remedy that, and (IMO) the ideal machine to do it with. Once you've got some stick time in ... you'll have the answer for all your other questions. I've got a dedicated mig, FCAW and a small stick. Takes some shelf space, but I don't spend much time dusting them either.

Best answer I've seen so far. I can always use practice in new techniques. No, I don't plan on making this a regular thing since I have a MIG I'm quite pleased with. But I do like learning different methods.


For those complaining I paid too much for the leads, what should I have paid? The wire isn't cheap for 2 ga, and the stinger isn't a knockoff thing. I went for a heavy ground clamp. I looked on Amazon and the prices were even higher. Perhaps you have a secret source?

 

[Vegaman_Dan]

I may get slammed for it but.....if you didn't know what you would need or use it for then you shouldn't have spent that much time and money on it

Bob

If we followed that advice, then none of us would have tools in the first place.

 

[bigdave39355]

didnt mean to stomp on your toes, welding cable price varies widely. pays to shop around.

hate to see folks get hoodwinked.

electronbeam had usa made 2 awg for $1.13/ft . looks like 2/0 in pic. on sale this month for $1.91/ft.

Dave

 

[zkling]

If it's an AC machine you can use it a power supply for a TIG for aluminum.
Welding and thicker and even dirty or rusty thick metal

I may get slammed for it but.....if you didn't know what you would need or use it for then you shouldn't have spent that much time and money on it

Bob

I somewhat agree. While that is a solid machine, it is the up most basic in stick welders. For the same amount of money on the new leads you probably could have bought an entire AC225 or the like which is Lincolns equivalent to that machine. However you did end up with a very nice set of leads which a used machine doesn't always have.

In the home shop a stick machine has the benefits over mig of...

Low purchase price
No shielding gas required
More durable leads
Easily change electrode properties compared to changing an entire spool of wire
Thicker materials can be welded than those usually in the range of the average home shop mig machine.

Like many fab tools it will depend on the type of work you do. Mostly auto body? Well you probably will see no benefit over a mig. But if you do happen to weld on the occasional thicker section of steel, want to build up material or even weld irons. Then you have the capabilities.

 

[Vegaman_Dan]

Sounds like it is a good thing to just keep around handy for that 'someday just in case' situations. The cost of investment was low and I had fun in the repairs. I haven't touched a stick welder since the 80's, so I will want to try running a few beads to bring back the memories.

 

[zkling]

Sounds like it is a good thing to just keep around handy for that 'someday just in case' situations. The cost of investment was low and I had fun in the repairs. I haven't touched a stick welder since the 80's, so I will want to try running a few beads to bring back the memories.

There you go, good solution. If it isn't taking up valuable space and or you don't direly need the $, I'd keep it. One thing about a machine you have and worked on is you know the insides and out. Unlike a just purchased machine. And it has new leads. On the dryer power cord. In the future if you needs leads or ground clamp or electrode holder. Check online, even with shipping they are usually cheaper than the LWS.

 

[Professur]

... and I had fun in the repairs.

Nuff said.