Milwaukee 9.0 vs Dewalt Flexvolt

[hoye0017]

I think that's the difference between you and I here. I'm not supporting anyone. This isn't about Dewalt vs Milwaukee. It's about being objective vs irrational brand prejudice.

I'm Calling you guys out for your weird judgment on a brand because it's not the one you own. You say you hate marketing and hype but you're buying right into your brand's marketing plan: create so much loyalty that anything from their primary competitor ***** and must be ridiculed.

Go back and read your responses on this thread. You started by vilifying Dewalt for saying 20v when it's 18v. Then when someone brought up Milwaukees m12 being 10.8v, the response was, "yeah but everyone does that".

Did Milwaukee save your life or something? Where does that blind loyalty come from?

I actually like both brands and own both for different things. For example, as truckdriver mentioned, Milwaukee will probably always own the sawzall market. So that's the one i bought. That doesn't mean that all the other reciprocating saws ****.

Speaking of Toolguyd, here's a pretty objective look at the topic of this thread: http://toolguyd.com/dewalt-flexvolt-vs-milwaukee-m18-high-demand/

 

[ADSR]

I'm Calling you guys out for your weird judgment on a brand because it's not the one you own. You say you hate marketing and hype but you're buying right into your brand's marketing plan: create so much loyalty that anything from their primary competitor ***** and must be ridiculed.

Get a grip pal. I still own more dewalt than most people. I still own my 36 volt set and sold off all my 18 volt. I also own a ton of corded dewalt.

So don't tell me it's not a brand I don't own.

 

[6pony6]

This is just like the Mustang forum I frequent. Sounds like a bunch of first graders.

Red vs Yellow, Ford vs Chevy. Who cares?

Use what you want to use. Drive what you want to drive.

 

[JettaGetUpandGo]

Get a grip pal. I still own more dewalt than most people. I still own my 36 volt set and sold off all my 18 volt. I also own a ton of corded dewalt.

So don't tell me it's not a brand I don't own.

Ditto. A number of my corded power tools are Dewalt (3/8" drill, jigsaw, grinder, etc.) and I like them very much. When it comes to corded tools, I've stopped being brand loyal and will search for who makes the best version of what I am looking to buy for the most reasonable price.

On the battery side though I don't care what Dewalt or Bosch or anyone comes out with. I picked the M12/M18 battery lines after Dewalt screwed the pooch on the 18v and I'm sticking to them. It's not about brand loyalty. It's about having one type of 12v battery and one type of 18v battery. It just so happens to be that I can use a single charger for both the M12 and M18 batteries which makes that even better.

Why would you pay the huge premium for a kit from another brand that includes a different battery and charger when you could just buy the bare tool for the system you already have batteries/chargers for? It's silly. I love being able to just grab another battery and not have to worry about a particular battery for a particular tool being charged.

There are very few "exclusive" cordless power tools for each brand. Dewalt/Makita had the cordless miter saw and Ryobi/Ridgid had the nailers. Milwaukee recently released the nailers and will be releasing their miter saw in the near future (if it isn't out already). If they don't make it, I either don't need it that badly or can get by with a corded version until they do.

 

[FigureItOut]

I'm a recent Milwaukee convert from Dewalt, but there are definitely tools in the Dewalt 20V line I prefer to their Milwaukee counterpart. Dewalt screwed me over like many others, but with me it wasn't the battery issue. I chose to convert my 18 volt stuff to Milwaukee because at the time they had the most exciting offerings in drill and impact driver. I stay with them for cordless to stay with the same battery, but love my Bosch 12 volt equally.

I do have some brand loyalty to Milwaukee, but within reason. Not everything they make is great or even good. I gravitate to Milwaukee because I can be reasonably sure I'm getting a decent tool without having to read endless stupid reviews or start a thread on GJ every time I need a new utility knife. I just go grab one. If I see what I want in Milwaukee, I'll probably get it, and it'll probably be good. I can say the same of Bosch.

The other factor in brand loyalty that can't be ignored isn't rational, but it's real and it's valid. It simply feels good to be a fan of something, plain and simple. We don't make tool buying decisions without emotion nor do I think our satisfaction with ownership would increase if we did. The companies are absolute experts at brand building, and will appeal to us at every level. The fact that they succeed at creating loyalty isn't surprising, and no-one should be considered foolish for buying into it.

Smart tool buyers like the majority of the GJ membership will look at every purchase with a healthy dose of scrutiny, and ultimately buy what brings them the most satisfaction of ownership. If some of that satisfaction is emotional, so be it. Once that decision is made, we see that people will passionately defend that choice.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk

 

[kctyphoon]

Obviously this forum is full of red fanboys. That's never been a secret. I think Milwaukee makes a fine cordless tool so I'm not judging you. Enjoy your tools.

But how are you gonna sit there and try to slam Dewalt for your perception of a marketing gimmick and ignore that Milwaukee is trying to pretend like this new battery is something more special than a big fat 9.0 ah battery. I don't see any engineering feat there either. Just a big *** battery.

Have any of you tried the new flex volt system? It doesn't sound like it. I haven't either but I'm not writing it off as a gimmick yet either. I understand the basic calculations you'll use to try and discredit the 60v concept but I'm willing to bet that Dewalt has some EE's that know a bit more than you. Maybe... Just maybe... They've been able to get more out of 60 (54) volts with their brushless technology.

If memory serves me, the motors that are inside Milwaukee's 18v fuel line are 60v a/c motors. I know for sure that they are all a/c powered - being brushless thats obvious. Im "pretty" sure they are 60v motors too, but I can't swear to that without looking again.. so IF that is the case, all Dewalt did was remove the electronics inside the tools to covert the power, and instead wired the batteries internally in two different ways with one set of pins on the pack being In series, and a second set of pins on the pack being parallel. There is no magical fairy inside the pack "switching" voltages. They would simply need to create newer tools to accept a new set of pins that made use of the second circuit in the battery. It's no "great engineering feat" if that's all they did. Most likely they just eliminated parts and came up with a new gimmick to draw people in with a higher voltage rating.

Like I said though, the 18v Milwaukee miter saw still cuts more- so doesnt that strike you as a bit odd using only one battery compared to Dewalt's two??

 

[dacan23]

Shouldnt you then have a Bosch jigsaw? LOL, just busting your chops.

Ditto. A number of my corded power tools are Dewalt (3/8" drill, jigsaw, grinder, etc.) and I like them very much. When it comes to corded tools, I've stopped being brand loyal and will search for who makes the best version of what I am looking to buy for the most reasonable price.

 

[dacan23]

That point is what would concern me, that the battery has too many failure points then. 2 sets of pins/tabs and something that choose which path to use. They already have some issue with the new flexvolt batteries that a large number of them has either a faulty battery meter gauge or the wiring of the cells is faulty, the gauge wont read full.

all Dewalt did was remove the electronics inside the tools to covert the power, and instead wired the batteries internally in two different ways with one set of pins on the pack being In series, and a second set of pins on the pack being parallel.

 

[TomB19]

Go back and read your responses on this thread. You started by vilifying Dewalt for saying 20v when it's 18v. Then when someone brought up Milwaukees m12 being 10.8v, the response was, "yeah but everyone does that".

That is a false equivalency.

All brands market 3 cell tools as 12v. DeWalt was the first to relabel 18v tools as 20v so they essentially threw the first punch in that fight.

I think it says something about a company, when the marketing department is the first to go down a somewhat greasy path. It doesn't entirely define the company, though.

 

[TomB19]

That point is what would concern me, that the battery has too many failure points then. 2 sets of pins/tabs and something that choose which path to use. They already have some issue with the new flexvolt batteries that a large number of them has either a faulty battery meter gauge or the wiring of the cells is faulty, the gauge wont read full.

Too many failure points? That's silly.

I'll bet the gauges are working perfectly and the cells have been damaged by too much current draw through a series configuration. They probably won't hold full voltage and have substantially reduced capacity.

To be fair, that's part of what FUEL is about. It prevents a tool from damaging a battery.

 

[Milwookie]

The Toolguyd article was interesting. Ultimately, I'm glad to see there's serious competition on both sides. They've made amazing strides in cordless tools over the past 10 years, and I can only imagine what they'll be like in another 10 years.

 

[JettaGetUpandGo]

Shouldnt you then have a Bosch jigsaw? LOL, just busting your chops.

Well played sir, well played. The jig saw was purchased in my days of ignorance. The DW331K is a beast though!

PS. I did get the Bosch router...

 

[Ign]

The Toolguyd article was interesting. Ultimately, I'm glad to see there's serious competition on both sides. They've made amazing strides in cordless tools over the past 10 years, and I can only imagine what they'll be like in another 10 years.

I agree. Like everything I think the Flexvolt is part marketing, part sound theory (and practice).

I've been surprised at what 40V Ryobi can do in weed eaters and even their brushless chainsaw, and those are low amp-hour packs (around 2ah IIRC). Higher voltage has its place. edit: I believe 40V Ryobi is really 36?

Milwaukee COULD have a dog in this fight if they hadn't started treating M28 like the red-headed stepchild. They even offer 5.0 M28 packs in EU and AU that they inexplicably refuse to bring here.

 

[dacan23]

Brand new out of the box the flex volt battery gauges are faulty on many batteries. Havent heard the reason why, everyone is just returning/exchanging the kit or battery.

Too many failure points? That's silly.

I'll bet the gauges are working perfectly and the cells have been damaged by too much current draw through a series configuration. They probably won't hold full voltage and have substantially reduced capacity.

To be fair, that's part of what FUEL is about. It prevents a tool from damaging a battery.

 

[Ign]

Also one more thing that no one is really focusing on is that charging technology is going to have to step up with all of these packs. I mean even my 5.0 M18's take noticeably longer to charge than the old "XC" packs of the past (which were 3.0).

Part of Milwaukee's claim to fame way-back-when with V28 was that a battery fully charged in 45 minutes (or was it an hour?). That was pretty damn good 12 years ago for such a large pack; what did a big DeWalt XRP take to charge? My Ryobi 40V stuff charges in 90 minutes which seems pretty damn good considering that those packs are HUGE.

My point is that even if you're "into" a platform with current-day chargers it's not quite as simple as just buying a 9.0 battery and slapping it on your charger. You can, but how long will a 9.0 M18 take to charge on a regular charger?

It's nothing new though, cell phones and lap tops went through these growing pains too. Eventually "rapid" chargers will become standard and handling the larger packs will be easy. But right now we're in that transition phase where we'll all be looking to replace old chargers with rapid chargers.

 

[Ign]

Brand new out of the box the flex volt battery gauges are faulty on many batteries. Havent heard the reason why, everyone is just returning/exchanging the kit or battery.

Eh, by the same token I kind of want to let M18 9.0's sit on the market for awhile before I buy one. There will likely be subtle problems Milwaukee will find and correct. Maybe not, but I personally don't want the first run of 9.0's.

V28 chemistry transitioning to M28 chemistry was a good example. And the first M12 batteries had high failure rates, again a chemistry issue though. And I recently discovered my M18 fan which I ordered early lacks the star holes for sliding over a screw head for wall-mounting. I only figured it out 'cause I ordered a second fan for the house and the holes were as they should be. None of these are excellent examples or likely to affect 9.0 packs but the point is that early production runs are sometimes late prototype runs LOL

 

[Milwookie]

I don't know about DeWalt, but one of the things I appreciate about Milwaukee is that they appear to pay attention to the failure points on their products and work to address them. One example is the multipurpose plier: the first generation the plastic locking clip was breaking for a lot of people. In the latest iteration the clip has been replaced with a metal one. Of course the lead time on a power tool is a lot longer, but I really feel like Milwaukee is working hard to make a reliable product at a price point that most people can afford (which is why they're made in China--everybody wants products made in the USA, but few people can afford them). I'm not bashing DeWalt in any way, I don't know anything about them, but so far I've been very happy with everything I've bought from Milwaukee.

 

[ADSR]

What did you expect to find when you clicked on the topic?

Yeah, I'm not really fighting over who is the king. Dewalt makes some killer tools. I've used them many years on the job site without fail. I've made a lot of money from them. Dewalts quality is top of the line and so is their engineering.

Bottom line is, they make tools of such quality, they need not the marketing nonsense. The tools speak for themselves.

IMO the marketing team and their number games needs to go.

 

[dacan23]

Yeah it seems faster charging lags increases in battery capacity. Though Milwaukee did release the rapid charge M12/M18 chargers last year, I have the Rapid stattion, its so fast, I hope its not hurting my packs. I think the Flexvolt charger is rapid too. The technology should of been in advance of the next leap in capacity

My point is that even if you're "into" a platform with current-day chargers it's not quite as simple as just buying a 9.0 battery and slapping it on your charger. You can, but how long will a 9.0 M18 take to charge on a regular charger?

It's nothing new though, cell phones and lap tops went through these growing pains too. Eventually "rapid" chargers will become standard and handling the larger packs will be easy. But right now we're in that transition phase where we'll all be looking to replace old chargers with rapid chargers.

 

[dacan23]

I too dont like to be the early adopter guinea pig. Its sad these days almost every product not only tools has issues upon release. Extensive testing is exp and the marketers always want to rush it to the market.

Eh, by the same token I kind of want to let M18 9.0's sit on the market for awhile before I buy one. There will likely be subtle problems Milwaukee will find and correct. Maybe not, but I personally don't want the first run of 9.0's.
[/I]

Thats why I never trust anything that is heavily marketed as marketing is all about deception and variations of facts.

GJ needs "like" and "thanks" buttons as your statement would be heavily "liked"

IMO the marketing team and their number games needs to go.

 

[dacan23]

It wont stop until someone makes a 220v battery powered lathe or milling machine.

Now a 220v battery powered 4 post lift I might buy.

They also need to quit making up new battery lines. I know the m18 and m12 platforms will be around for awhile. Dewalt is likely to come out with 80 volt tools next year.

 

[Know Wosad]

Well Lord. The accountants would likely disagree with you. You and I are on the same page with the marketing nonsense but humans are generally idiots who respond orgasmically to such tripe.
We live in a society where morons wake from a dream and go "tweet" the dream and have an alarm going off at 1201 am to find out what "worlds first" is.
The results are in the bank and the product sold is usually owed to a bank,with interest(or perhaps a dude in a truck----AHEM).
I can't afford hype and even if I could, I wouldn't. I buy what works and takes abuse and call junk JUNK because the majority of what's hyped is just that.Garbage.
Garbage geared toward ignoramuses who "collect" **** that's available on every shelf in the world brand new.
I never understood that either.

 

[6pony6]

What did you expect to find when you clicked on the topic?

Oh, I don't know....maybe more actual facts instead of the "my red/yellow tool is better than your red/yellow tool" nonsense.

 

[Loscaldazar]

Oh, I don't know....maybe more actual facts instead of the "my red/yellow tool is better than your red/yellow tool" nonsense.

First post seemed pretty factual

 

[kctyphoon]

Oh, I don't know....maybe more actual facts instead of the "my red/yellow tool is better than your red/yellow tool" nonsense.

But my red tool IS better then your yellow one.. that's a fact..

 

[firworks]

What's the cheapest Flexvolt tool kit? I don't own anything yellow but I'd like to take one apart and analyze it.