Milwaukee Pro Pex Expander Tool

[karoc]

GJ with my plumbing project coming up, I plan on using Pex A. I’m looking at buying used the expander tool with 1/2-1” heads. I see them on eBay and CL’s. Averaging around 300.00 plus. I have several of M18 batteries and drills etc but not M12. Not planning on going into plumbing business but I figured after few weekends of use, I would put it up for sale.
Anyway what I’m wondering if reason I see so many of M12’s for sale is because the M12 just doesn’t have the power. So has anyone use this tool M12, did it do what you wanted to do? Any thoughts be appreciated

 

[Firebrick43]

Because people buy them to do their house and then sell them. It’s a long term rental that is cheaper than renting it at a rental yard.

I was goin to do the same thing with mine but it’s just to handy so I keep it around.

It has no issues with power.

 

[Renegade1LI]

I have the m12, no issues at all, works great and I use it a lot. Fyi I bought mine new a year and a half ago for 300$, check hd website for milwaukee deals.

 

[karoc]

Just check, HD at 529.00 but good idea and going keep watching for maybe deal of day. Thanks

 

[ItsNemo]

I bought the Dewalt one for my basement, even at full price new I'd buy it again...it's SOOOOOOOO much easier than any other way to do plumbing.

 

[karoc]

When I order my pex and fittings from supply house.com going check if any specials or discounts for first time buyer

 

[housewolf]

@DGersic
This guy can give you some good insight from a layman’s perspective. I’m a very experienced plumber with almost zero experience with pex but I did recently consider using it on a project so did quite a bit of research. The process (expansion) you’ve decided on is without a doubt the way I’d go if I were to use pex.

 

[DGersic]

GJ with my plumbing project coming up, I plan on using Pex A. I’m looking at buying used the expander tool with 1/2-1” heads. I see them on eBay and CL’s. Averaging around 300.00 plus. I have several of M18 batteries and drills etc but not M12. Not planning on going into plumbing business but I figured after few weekends of use, I would put it up for sale.
Anyway what I’m wondering if reason I see so many of M12’s for sale is because the M12 just doesn’t have the power. So has anyone use this tool M12, did it do what you wanted to do? Any thoughts be appreciated

Read at least some of this first:

Plumbing Project - Re-Pipe the House

I’ve put a few pieces of this in other threads, but thought I’d do one with everything in it. Along the way, there’ll be a few WTF moments, and maybe a few useful lessons learned. I’ve been thinking about this project for about 20 years. Always too busy with work, life, and whatever. But I...

www.garagejournal.com

The M12 expander kicks ***. Kit comes with two batteries and a charger, so you’ll never stop for power. I wouldn’t want an M18, the M12 was heavy enough. I bought a cheap metal hammer loop for my belt to hang it from, worked better for me than hanging it from a pocket or directly on my belt.

I had intended to use it then sell it, but I’ve ended up keeping it. Planning a bathroom remodel probably next year.

Read up on A vs. B, too. It’s not as simple as it used to be.

 

[DGersic]

Just check, HD at 529.00 but good idea and going keep watching for maybe deal of day. Thanks

Expect to pay about $300. Check FB MP, CL, and eBay.

 

[Kurt4440]

I purchased the M12 expansion tool a couple of years ago for around $300 as well. I purchased it to help out my neighbor with a plumbing problem and ended up keeping the tool.
If you are doing plumbing in your house, and are less than 80 years old, keep the tool. You saved more money doing the plumbing work yourself and may need the tool again.

 

[tak1313]

Glad this subject came up. I got the M12 expander a few years ago because it was on sale at a great price in anticipation of EVENTUALLY using it.

Recently, I came across a couple of YT vids about pex-a issues - specifically Uponor pipe. Any input on the claims in videos like these? It SEEMS like it more of an issue with heavily chlorinated water?

https://youtu.be/FcHcKvZ3AZE?si=3KNRAw3bQG-OL3mg

https://youtube.com/shorts/b6ZQEWDySYQ?si=BMPcbNfnflE6rCm2

Edit - I got the M12 expander (at the time) because from what I was reading, it was getting great marks by pros (I'm DIY). In my case, at the time, the deal made it such that it was cheaper to get the tool only, and buy heads separately. I don't remember the pricing anymore though. As far as I know, the Dewalt heads are usually cheaper and fit the Milwaukee tool.

 

[karoc]

Taka1313, I also seen those videos and it seems that it’s always same guys talking about issues. I’m going to chance it, still go with Uponor Pex A. Seems that it’s under different name Wirsbo, sure there’s reason why. Maybe someone here knows why.

 

[tak1313]

Taka1313, I also seen those videos and it seems that it’s always same guys talking about issues. I’m going to chance it, still go with Uponor Pex A. Seems that it’s under different name Wirsbo, sure there’s reason why. Maybe someone here knows why.

Yeah, from my limited research, it has to do with the combination of chlorine, heat, and pressure. Apparently, it's at its worst when the following combo occurs - chlorinated water, more than 140 degrees, and more than 60/80 lbs of water pressure. It SEEMS like if any/all three of the parameters are exceeded, it can start cracking/leaking in as soon as 2 years after install.

Perhaps a pro plumber with experience will chime in.

Edit - I should also say that after viewing the video, I did a little research, and the guy owns a company in CA that offers repiping of pex-a, and SUPPOSEDLY, used to use Uponor pex-a himself until he started to see problems. I believe I also read that there is a pex-b (Viega or Apollo - don't remember which brand) that now makes a pex-b that is approved for expansion pex that is SUPPOSEDLY more resistant to the cracking/leaking issue than pex-a.

I'll have to dig further into it when it comes to ACTUALLY doing mine i guess.

 

[PBCampbell]

I'm surprised that there isn't a simple manual swaging type tool to do this. This seems a terrible expense for a homeowner to do just a few connections.

 

[neophyte]

I'm surprised that there isn't a simple manual swaging type tool to do this. This seems a terrible expense for a homeowner to do just a few connections.

There are hand tools for expanding PEX.
The higher end Wisbo or Uponor versions were usually rebranded Virax versions made in France.
There are also generic Asian versions.

 

[nmk_61802]

I have an M12 expander...works fine on 1/2" and 3/4". Never had a need for 1" on my current project list. My guess is the M18 power is needed for larger diameter, hence the larger dies included in the kit.

 

[ItsNemo]

I'm surprised that there isn't a simple manual swaging type tool to do this. This seems a terrible expense for a homeowner to do just a few connections.

For a few connections just use sharkbite...or for a few more use the crimp rings and it's tool. There is a manual expansion tool, but the powered ones are awesome.

Also, Pex-A tends to be more flexible than Pex-B, so it's easier to work with. Also, even though the 10' sticks are more expensive then a roll...get some sticks for when you need perfectly straight chunks, it's way easier than fighting the coil memory...coils are good for long single runs without fittings when you can sweep the corners through floor joists and such.

Also a vid on my dewalt one:

 

[nmk_61802]

I'm surprised that there isn't a simple manual swaging type tool to do this. This seems a terrible expense for a homeowner to do just a few connections.

There are hand tools for expanding PEX.
The higher end Wisbo or Uponor versions were usually rebranded Virax versions made in France.
There are also generic Asian versions.

I looked into this myself. You must rotate the pex or the die while expanding. The quality tools will do this automatically, cheap ones will not. The quality tools cost close to what you can get a used M12 expander for, so why not.

 

[karoc]

There may be lot truth to all this, May be reason why names have change from Uponor to Wirsbo. If that’s case then will go B, so I’ll have change my plans

 

[tak1313]

There may be lot truth to all this, May be reason why names have change from Uponor to Wirsbo. If that’s case then will go B, so I’ll have change my plans

I don't think the "name change" has anything to do with the problem, as Wirsbo started selling in 1972, and Uponor Aquapex has been around since 1993. From what I gathered, the problems are in Uponor products - not Wirsbo products (either way, it's the same company).

FAQs | Uponor

FAQs | Uponor + Frequently asked questions about Uponor, PEX-a piping, radiant heating and cooling, and more.

www.uponor.com

Found the pex-b that is supposedly expansion compatible - I was wrong, it's Zurn.

The Expansion of PEX | PEX A vs PEX B: Pros and Cons, PEX C

Learn about the history of PEX piping and how it can improve your next project.

blog.zurn.com

I don't know what your installation is (I'm on deep well), but MY IMPRESSION is that the main culprit is chlorine - especially in something called "breakpoint" chlorination, which I think is where significantly more chlorine is used than "normal" for whatever reason.

 

[BSWS]

I started using the 12V Milwuakee professionally as soon as they became available. It's a great tool and never considered upgrading to the 18V.

Even thought I've done PEX plumbing for years I can't answer the questions about brand issues. We did use Wirsbo but it was a European version with much thicker walls. Since it was in dialysis clinics all the chlorine was removed, but it did heat up to about 200 F for a few hours every night. I don't know of any pipe or fitting failures other than operator error.

 

[Shocker]

I replumbed my entire house in Uponor Pex A and use the Milwaukee M12 expander. Lot's of connections both 1/2" and 3/4".

Worked like a champ. Zero issues. Just make sure you get the right grease and keep it lubed up.

Homeowner here, not a pro.

 

[housewolf]

I don't think the "name change" has anything to do with the problem, as Wirsbo started selling in 1972, and Uponor Aquapex has been around since 1993. From what I gathered, the problems are in Uponor products - not Wirsbo products (either way, it's the same company).

FAQs | Uponor

FAQs | Uponor + Frequently asked questions about Uponor, PEX-a piping, radiant heating and cooling, and more.

www.uponor.com

Found the pex-b that is supposedly expansion compatible - I was wrong, it's Zurn.

The Expansion of PEX | PEX A vs PEX B: Pros and Cons, PEX C

Learn about the history of PEX piping and how it can improve your next project.

blog.zurn.com

I don't know what your installation is (I'm on deep well), but MY IMPRESSION is that the main culprit is chlorine - especially in something called "breakpoint" chlorination, which I think is where significantly more chlorine is used than "normal" for whatever reason.

I’d be interested to know the actual ppm of chlorine we’re talking about here. Above 5 ppm shouldn’t be consumed anyway. The only place I’ve ever seen 140* domestic hot water has been a commercial kitchen. It’s generally considered unsafe for residential. 120* is the max I would set a water heater temp. It should never be above that if there are children or elderly occupants.

If it were my decision to make, I’d want some better data before changing my mind on using type A pex. Not saying it couldn’t be an issue but most of what I’ve seen has been published by makers of CPVC so they could have some special interest there. What I have seen published by the CPVC industry wasn’t very specific.

FWIW; I’m not knocking CPVC either

 

[karoc]

Thanks to all for responding, I would believe that something this major wrong with Pex A that be all over news and supply houses quit selling it. In video where the guy found all these leaks that maybe someone pipe in their pool with Pex or their Jacuzzi

 

[Crashlandy]

There are hand tools for expanding PEX.
The higher end Wisbo or Uponor versions were usually rebranded Virax versions made in France.
There are also generic Asian versions.

There are hand tools for expanding PEX.
The higher end Wisbo or Uponor versions were usually rebranded Virax versions made in France.
There are also generic Asian versions.

I bought this exact tool off marketplace for $75 to plumb a bathroom remodel. Worked great and will use on future projects. Wouldn't want to make a living with it.

 

[DGersic]

I'm surprised that there isn't a simple manual swaging type tool to do this. This seems a terrible expense for a homeowner to do just a few connections.

There is a hand crank tool for expansion. I wouldn’t want to use it more than once. Definitely not doing a whole house with it.

 

[DGersic]

I covered this in my re-pipe thread, but TL;DR version is that the difference between PEX A and B is the manufacturing technique used to make the pipe. Whether the pipe is suitable for crimp fittings (ASTM F1807/F2159 ) or expansion fittings (ASTM F1960) is not an A vs B decision. You will find this data printed on the pipe.

I think all A varieties are expansion, but I could be wrong there. I had already decided on using B, so stopped looking at A versions. You can get PEX B that is certified for crimp or expansion.

Opinions follow:

I went with Sioux Chief PEX B. US made, sold by Menards in sticks and rolls, so easily available to me, certified for crimp or expansion, and warrantied by the manufacturer whether used with their fittings or not. Most pipe manufacture warranty terms include only use with their fittings and rings.

The videos by Integrity Repipe were a pretty big influence in my decision not to use Upanor / Wirsbo products, or PEX A from anybody. A guy that made millions by doing expensive house re-pipes with Upanor PEX A is now actively trashing the company and products he used to sell tells me that he is both hurt and furious. That’s not where I want to go, even on my much smaller DIY project.

He had me looking at Zurn, but the local suppliers weren’t interested in selling me Zurn products. Even the supplier that Zurn recommended that I talk to tried to sell me Upanor. That made me question Zurn’s long term survival.

Locally, Lowe’s sells inexpensive PEX tubing of unknown, probably Chinese manufacture. I wasn’t willing to save $50 on the project and have no idea what I was actually buying. Maybe it’s ok, maybe it’s not.

Thats how I ended up at Menards for Sioux Chief.

One other thing is that right now Menards is having their “everything you can fit in this paper bag is 15% off” sale. You can fit a lot of PEX fittings in a paper bag. I did this last year, and got a 7’ receipt after quite some time at the checkout counter.

 

[will335i]

I’d be interested to know the actual ppm of chlorine we’re talking about here. Above 5 ppm shouldn’t be consumed anyway. The only place I’ve ever seen 140* domestic hot water has been a commercial kitchen. It’s generally considered unsafe for residential. 120* is the max I would set a water heater temp. It should never be above that if there are children or elderly occupants.

If it were my decision to make, I’d want some better data before changing my mind on using type A pex. Not saying it couldn’t be an issue but most of what I’ve seen has been published by makers of CPVC so they could have some special interest there. What I have seen published by the CPVC industry wasn’t very specific.

FWIW; I’m not knocking CPVC either

I am glad someone brought it up. The only reason you should be setting your water heater above 120 F is if you are using a mixing valve and in that case you could go copper to the valve and then pex from the valve to the taps. IIRC setting it above 120 F also reduces the manufacture warranty as they consider it being commercial use instead of residential.

 

[karoc]

Well dang, I’m getting off subject of my own post but it does have bearing on subject of Pex. I Google Uponor Lawsuits and few pop up. It seems that Uponor no longer will make Red, Blue pipe which color is link to pipe failure. At Supplyhouse.com I have Uponor pipe with red and blue print on pipe that is white. So other pipe has been discontinued. I didn’t read everything cause it’s really above my understanding. So I guess the fix has been made but wondering if it stand test of time. No Sioux Chief or Menards around me. That would save me fortune since want to go with brass fittings, only because seems better with brass.
DGersic, going to look for your re-pipe post

 

[tak1313]

I’d be interested to know the actual ppm of chlorine we’re talking about here. Above 5 ppm shouldn’t be consumed anyway. The only place I’ve ever seen 140* domestic hot water has been a commercial kitchen. It’s generally considered unsafe for residential. 120* is the max I would set a water heater temp. It should never be above that if there are children or elderly occupants.

If it were my decision to make, I’d want some better data before changing my mind on using type A pex. Not saying it couldn’t be an issue but most of what I’ve seen has been published by makers of CPVC so they could have some special interest there. What I have seen published by the CPVC industry wasn’t very specific.

FWIW; I’m not knocking CPVC either

The temp range is something I just came across after watching the video some time ago, but I haven't REALLY dug into it - yet - because although the M12 tool has been lying around for a few years (I hope I can find it when I need it (one of my continual tool problems)), I'm still not ready to actually do any repipe. So the 3 items and ranges may not be entirely accurate because I am 61...

Without diving into it again (yet), my inclination RIGHT NOW is to go expandable B. I do have a crimp tool from years ago too, but I like how expansion fittings allow for more flow. I'll just have to use more elbows, as I understand B (even expandable) can't bend corners like A.

We'll see when the time comes - and maybe by then the issue will be fixed with A, if not already. I'm not so sure it's ONLY the red/blue A issue, since I have also seen images of white A pipe with the same cracking/leaking when I looked. And maybe it's a non-issue for me anyway, being on well water (no treatment of any kind).

Either way, I am definitely doing SOME kind of expansion, otherwise I have a tool for nothing...though it's not like it's the only tool I have that I do nothing with...

 

[housewolf]

@tak1313 (I meant to quote your post)

61? No excuse, I’ve got 6 years on you sonny!

IMO; the primary advantage expansion has over crimp is the inside profile of the fitting/pipe and that you maintain roughly the same I.D. In addition to the “ledge” restricting flow on crimp fittings, you have a smaller ID on the fittings and an excellent spot for sediment to build up further restricting flow

 

[DGersic]

The temp range is something I just came across after watching the video some time ago, but I haven't REALLY dug into it - yet - because although the M12 tool has been lying around for a few years (I hope I can find it when I need it (one of my continual tool problems)), I'm still not ready to actually do any repipe. So the 3 items and ranges may not be entirely accurate because I am 61...

Without diving into it again (yet), my inclination RIGHT NOW is to go expandable B. I do have a crimp tool from years ago too, but I like how expansion fittings allow for more flow. I'll just have to use more elbows, as I understand B (even expandable) can't bend corners like A.

We'll see when the time comes - and maybe by then the issue will be fixed with A, if not already. I'm not so sure it's ONLY the red/blue A issue, since I have also seen images of white A pipe with the same cracking/leaking when I looked. And maybe it's a non-issue for me anyway, being on well water (no treatment of any kind).

Either way, I am definitely doing SOME kind of expansion, otherwise I have a tool for nothing...though it's not like it's the only tool I have that I do nothing with...

PEX B bends around corners just fine. I have one PEX elbow in my entire house re-pipe, and only because the joist clearance for the toilet supply line wouldn’t allow for a bend there. Only had about 3” of space due to other supports for the vent stack.

Here’s a 90* bend in two 3/4” and one 1/2”:



The insulated hot 3/4”, and uninsulated hot return 1/2”for my water heater. The cold blue is 3/4”. That other 1/2” blue bends vertically behind the dryer exhaust and feeds the ice maker.

Also shown here, PEX expands linearly when hot. The cold and hot lines were parallel when installed. They are visibly not parallel now. Be sure to leave some room and ability for the pipe to move. Bends are good for that, more so than elbows.

Here are the bends under my bathroom sink.



Left to right, the 3/4” hot (red) has a 1/2” T that bends around and up, goes through the floor joist, in to a tight 90* bend to vertical through the floor. Then the second 1/2” T feeds back to the water heater on the return passive loop. The blue 1/2” T has a loop around, goes through the joist, then a tight 90* bend to vertical through the floor.

There are lots of interesting bend supports you can use as needed for tight radius bends. The only caveat is that I found that the plastic bend supports for 3/4” would self destruct as soon as the pipe was put in to them. I had to use steel supports for 3/4”. plastic supports worked great on 1/2”. I also made several custom bend supports with steel and my welder. You probably won’t need those, but keep the idea in mind when you start planning your routes.

 

[mike93lx]

Pex is simple for sure. But past installation, and some freeze benefit, can it really be argued that it is better than copper? The lawsuits and past issues combined with how much it seems to be still developing has made me apprehensive to adopt. I do have a pex crimper, but it was for some outdoor, non potable use

I think copper with propress is about perfect. Just wish the tool was less expensive. If I was doing a replumb or new install, I'd seriously consider dropping the coin

 

[dcg9381]

Because people buy them to do their house and then sell them. It’s a long term rental that is cheaper than renting it at a rental yard.

I wouldn't know jack about these tools if it wasn't for my neighbor who was building a house and schooled me on Uponor and the flow benefits of the associated fittings.

Course, he sold his tool set after completing his house, so now I can't borrow his tool... :-(

I'm back to crimping PEX with my cave-man tools.

But past installation, and some freeze benefit, can it really be argued that it is better than copper? The lawsuits and past issues combined with how much it seems to be still developing has made me apprehensive to adopt.

That's like saying "ignoring 90% of the huge advantages" is it better? I may not be up to date on the latest lawsuits, but seems like PEX handles mineral build up better, won't corrode, and you don't worry about electrolysis. It's way cheaper. Adopt it. You won't look back.

If you're plastic "phobic" - I guess I could see hesitation... But copper is going to involve lead.

If I'm wrong on it, I'll be long dead by the time that point is proven.

 

[housewolf]

Pex is simple for sure. But past installation, and some freeze benefit, can it really be argued that it is better than copper? The lawsuits and past issues combined with how much it seems to be still developing has made me apprehensive to adopt. I do have a pex crimper, but it was for some outdoor, non potable use

I think copper with propress is about perfect. Just wish the tool was less expensive. If I was doing a replumb or new install, I'd seriously consider dropping the coin

I (commercial plumber) was almost convinced by my brother (residential plumber) to use pex in my home we built in 2020. At the last minute, I decided to sweat copper. Not because I had doubts about the product but more so because of my familiarity with copper. If I needed to repair, move, or change something after we finished, I don’t have a stash of extra material or the even tools to work with pex. Like most old skool plumbers I was doubtful about pex when it became popular, but I think it’s been in service long enough without inherent issues we can assume it’s good to go. I do know if we were discussing building a $100MM hospital the pex vs copper discussion would never happen. At least it wouldn’t have two years ago when I retired.

Pro-press is great, but I hope I won’t install enough copper in my remaining years to even come close to making it cost effective vs sweat. If I do… something has gone horribly wrong!