Mini Split long term reliability/service

[AndyCBR]

Hello,

Not a time of year when many think about AC systems but down South winter is the time to do any attic work in preparation for our second season.

I have an insulated 24x24 attached garage that I am looking to install a mini split. I currently have a 12k BTU window shaker that helps in summer but is pretty noisy and not very efficient at cooling down the space.

I got a quote or two from some local vendors and the pricing is pretty high for what is being installed. I've had quotes as high as $3400 installed. Traditional 1.5Ton systems are over $4,700 installed.

I have gauges and a vacuum pump from doing automotive AC work. From what I can see the only specialty tools I would need would be a good flare tool and maybe a micron gauge. Not sure the flare nut torque wrenches are a necessity although I have read over tightening seems to be the biggest risk with these connectors.

My question is about long term reliability. I have researched lots of threads on here with people in similar situations with good results from DIY.

1) What is the 5-10 year look ahead on service problems? Do these systems become "throwaway" after 5 years or so?

2) I have heard parts availability is an issue? Especially with the no-name China brands that seem to pushed heavily on Amazon and elsewhere on the web.

3) Any particular brand that is best with best factory parts availability? I'm leaning toward one of the Japanese models (Mitsubishi, Daikin, Fujitsu).

4) Some online retailers (Ingram's, others) seem to honor the factory warranty. Some say just having tech start up the system is not enough and the warranty is void unless you can provide a receipt from a licensed vendor.

5) Anybody had good luck with a good 12k window shaker? I haven't really explored this as it seems they all originate from China and it looks like regardless of nameplate they are very similar in design and performance especially from a noise standpoint.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[kuhner]

I can not speak on any questions about your mini splits, but window shakers I found that Friedrich is made in the USA. I bought their biggest 110V model and after 3 years I am very pleased with it. Very quiet, can have a seperate thermostat hooked into it, really a great unit. Pricey but as usual you get what you pay for.
Here is a link, http://residential.friedrich.com/Products/Kuhl.aspx
greg

 

[75gmck25]

Friedrich has a good reputation and they also sell ductless split systems. My son's employer put one in recently in the Boston area and it was relatively easy to self-install. They rented a commercial hole saw to make the wall penetrations in the brick and everything else was just bolting it together. However, their business includes mechanical design and precision machine work, so they are very very familiar with making something mechanical work.

Bruce

 

[crewchief437]

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=274635

 

[AndyCBR]

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=274635

I had seen that thread and it provides some good info.

Was hoping on some more data points from long term users in the USA.

Most things tend to work well for the first few years. It's what happens 5-10 years down the road that tells you if it was money well spent.

 

[AndyCBR]

I can not speak on any questions about your mini splits, but window shakers I found that Friedrich is made in the USA. I bought their biggest 110V model and after 3 years I am very pleased with it. Very quiet, can have a seperate thermostat hooked into it, really a great unit. Pricey but as usual you get what you pay for.
Here is a link, http://residential.friedrich.com/Products/Kuhl.aspx
greg

That's a pretty nice unit. One of the only ones I've seen that actually takes into account isolation of the interior and exterior space in the design.

The low end window shaker that came with my house is a Home Depot special that looks like the primary building material in the interior is styrofoam.

 

[AndyCBR]

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=274635

Just noticed that was your thread.

So what did you end up going with?

 

[pseudorealityx]

I had seen that thread and it provides some good info.

Was hoping on some more data points from long term users in the USA.

Most things tend to work well for the first few years. It's what happens 5-10 years down the road that tells you if it was money well spent.

The big companies have been making ductless mini-splits for a couple of decades. There's tens of thousands of them on commercial projects in every city and state. They're fine, and they aren't any more fragile than anything else.

Know what they're good for, know their limitations, and buy if it meets your needs.


And don't buy Chinese off brand ****, unless that is what you want.

 

[AndyCBR]

The big companies have been making ductless mini-splits for a couple of decades. There's tens of thousands of them on commercial projects in every city and state. They're fine, and they aren't any more fragile than anything else.

Know what they're good for, know their limitations, and buy if it meets your needs.

And don't buy Chinese off brand ****, unless that is what you want.

Thanks for the advice.

As far as what is a good or bad brand it is getting harder to tell every day. Even Fujitsu has units made in China and "name brand" equipment like Friedrich and Daikin are manufactured in Korea. Some Mitsubishi units are made in Thailand.

If I had to guess some of the "Chinese off brand ****" is made on the same assembly line right next to the "name brand" equipment.

I haven't decided on a system yet but considering a premium "name brand" system installed by a local HVAC company can cost as much as 4 times as an off brand unit it is certainly a gamble worth considering.

These same systems get purchased off the shelf in Walmarts in Mexico and I can only imagine what percentage of those units get a micron gauge vacuum (or even any vacuum at all).

From what I'm seeing locally HVAC companies don't do much service on these things as their labor rates and markup make it prohibitive to even justify attempting a repair unless it is a "gas and go" or leak chasing on flares. The local dealer that quoted me did cite that as a disadvantage of these systems as they typically just replace portions of the system as a means of repair (head or condenser).

 

[dogdas]

410A is a refrigerant that required special gauges (high PSI) and avoid any mechanical joints. Braze them and full nitrogen purge. You may be able to install it yourself and hire a refer on the side to evacuate and dry the piping to sub 500 micron. If done right a good unit should last a long time. Read up on 410A refrigerant to get the proper info.

 

[7echo]

Most of the HVAC guys I talk with prefer Mitsubishi. I know there are a bunch at work and they seem to have less problems than the conventional stuff. One thing I do not like about them, especially for a shop area, is the filter. They are fine for household use but need regular attention in a work area.

Are you wanting a straight cool, or heat and cool?

 

[pseudorealityx]

Thanks for the advice.

As far as what is a good or bad brand it is getting harder to tell every day. Even Fujitsu has units made in China and "name brand" equipment like Friedrich and Daikin are manufactured in Korea. Some Mitsubishi units are made in Thailand.

If I had to guess some of the "Chinese off brand ****" is made on the same assembly line right next to the "name brand" equipment.

I haven't decided on a system yet but considering a premium "name brand" system installed by a local HVAC company can cost as much as 4 times as an off brand unit it is certainly a gamble worth considering.

These same systems get purchased off the shelf in Walmarts in Mexico and I can only imagine what percentage of those units get a micron gauge vacuum (or even any vacuum at all).

From what I'm seeing locally HVAC companies don't do much service on these things as their labor rates and markup make it prohibitive to even justify attempting a repair unless it is a "gas and go" or leak chasing on flares. The local dealer that quoted me did cite that as a disadvantage of these systems as they typically just replace portions of the system as a means of repair (head or condenser).

All of the VRF companies are based out of Asia. Freidrich isn't making anything; they're just rebranding one of the big brands over there.

Daiken bought McQuay years ago, and also is hooked up with Goodman on the residential side. Their VRF stuff is good.

We spec mostly Mitsubishi, but occasionally use Daiken or Fujitsu, depending on the job/client.

 

[6768rogues]

I retired as facilities director for public school system and we had many of the systems you mentioned. We used them for computer server rooms and when we had to add air conditioning to an area not previously air conditioned. I recall Sanyo units and Mitsubishi units, but there could have been others since there were dozens of them. I did not work on them personally, but the complaints came to me and any purchase of parts had to be approved by me. Very seldom was there a need to do anything except PM to them.

 

[AndyCBR]

Most of the HVAC guys I talk with prefer Mitsubishi. I know there are a bunch at work and they seem to have less problems than the conventional stuff. One thing I do not like about them, especially for a shop area, is the filter. They are fine for household use but need regular attention in a work area.

Are you wanting a straight cool, or heat and cool?

My garage is well insulated and the 12k BTU window shaker would cool it down given enough time although it was noisy doing it. If it is cold (in LA not very often) my milk house heater will take off the chill and if you are working in long sleeves it is fine.

I was looking at a 13 SEER Mitsubishi non-inverter cooling only unit OR the Pioneer Inverter 115V Heat Pump that is #1 on Amazon.

I can run 220v but for only 12,000 BTU it is optional.

The Mitsubishi is 2x the price of the Pioneer but is it 2x the performance?

It's hard to ignore all of the fabulous reviews on Amazon for the Pioneer. Even if half of them were fake it would still be an outstanding rating.

 

[havnfun]

I had installed a Mitsubishi mini split in a 1000 sf commercial building that I own in early 1997. Zero problems with this unit. Very expensive, but not having to run duct work was a big selling point. It doesn't get used much in northern Michigan. The tenant of the last three years has been using it more as it seems the summers have been warmer. When it needs replacing will certainly go with another Mitsubishi mini split if I can afford one.

 

[theoldwizard1]

2) I have heard parts availability is an issue? Especially with the no-name China brands that seem to pushed heavily on Amazon and elsewhere on the web.

Yep !

3) Any particular brand that is best with best factory parts availability? I'm leaning toward one of the Japanese models (Mitsubishi, Daikin, Fujitsu).

Mitsubishi and Fujitsu seem to fight for #1 and #2.


Some people install the compressor and air handler and run the lines and wires themselves and then have a local company do the final connections and startup. If you negotiate this up front, they will usually cover warranty for you.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I had installed a Mitsubishi mini split in a 1000 sf commercial building that I own in early 1997. Zero problems with this unit. Very expensive, but not having to run duct work was a big selling point.

ZERO problems over 18 years is also paying you back !