More compressed air system?

[L5wolvesf]

Sorry if these questions are a repeat, I’ve searched but come up with hundreds of compressor etc threads.

Need some input on some things I have read here re air line systems. First, my garage is 24 x 32, Craftsman portable 33g compressor. I will NOT be using PVC and I do not want to deal with any of the metal pipe options. The install would be a PITA with all that is in the garage now. The tubing will be routed along the bottom of the rafters and will tee to; a hose reel at roughly the mid point of the working area of the garage, and drop close to a small outside door where I can plug in an extension hose for outside needs. I will also be building a small media blast cabinet soon.

At this point I am leaning toward PEX because; affordable, ease of expansion, materials available locally (vs Rapidair, etc) at several places, ease of install.

My questions are:
One concern I have with Pex is it is rated at 100 psi at 180 degrees. My compressor can put out 150 psi.. How does 100 psi at 180 degrees translate in non-Hellish like temperatures?

Air cooling - I read on a piping layout diagram that a minimum of 25 ft to the first outlet is required to cool the air. My hose reel will be first (other than a plug in at the compressor) at about 12 ft, then the exterior plug in at about 30 ft. How do I deal with the cooling issue, or is it not really an issue?

Dryer and filter. Are either/both needed on a small system? Can I put them in line just after the compressor?

BTW, this is an XLNT forum.

Thank you,
L

 

[Falcon67]

If your portable is an oiless, you will have a lot of water to deal with. If it has a oil bath pump, you'll still have some water issues. What I have done in the past with a smaller compressor is to jump from the compressor too a 3/4" or 1" iron pipe stack with a drain valve. Make it as tall as possible and do a U turn at the top to come back down to where the other lines will tie in. The temp should be plenty low for Pex by then. Most portables are limited to 125~135 PSI. You can put a water trap right off the compressor - it will control some of the water but small compressors put out pretty warm air and a small filter won't stop much. A really good dessicant filter will be required to slow it down. A tall big iron pipe will also help coll the air and drop out some of the water. If you don't run the compressor a lot with tools like spray guns, grinders or cut off tools the compressor won't make a huge amount of water. If you run it hard, you can nearly water your yard with it.

Most compressors

 

[keen]

One concern I have with Pex is it is rated at 100 psi at 180 degrees. My compressor can put out 150 psi.. How does 100 psi at 180 degrees translate in non-Hellish like temperatures?

I can't provide a conversion, but keep in mind that typically you don't have your line pressure set at the peak pressure that your pump shuts off at. At least in a home/small shop. Large site air installations would be different, but you'd reduce the line pressure to a working pressure in multiple locations (or even at every outlet) which gets massively expensive for the home user.

Typical maximum line pressure is below cut-on pressure for your pump - 90psi or below is typical for most air tools. One shop I worked at kept the lines at 40psi, which rather sucked for impacts....

I use pex (and gator/sharkbite fittings), and have pushed 150psi into the lines for short periods (to run the big impacts when 90 just wasn't doing the job - increasing psi to substitute for lack of cfm). You generally want a regulator at tank-out to limit pressure in the lines. You may have additional regulators to reduce pressure further for specific tasks, too.

 

[madjack]

I've been looking at a RapidAir line system that Northern tool sells.
Here is a link http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200367525_200367525

Comes in half and three quarter inch.

 

[StaggeringGoat]

I think a lot of people here worry way, way too much about water in their air system. Unless you're painting with it, it's not that big of deal. A little water mist might come out of your tool if you're using the compressor hard, big deal. Most smaller compressors aren't setup with any sort of piping at all, just 3/8" air hoses. The air should cool sufficiently in the tank unless you're using it REALLY hard - in which case you need a bigger compressor.

If you were running an auto body shop it would be more important....but it doesn't sound like you are. My compressor system consists of 3 smaller compressors and 5 or 6 individual tanks...no pipes, coolers, or water traps. Never been a problem for me, though I don't paint...

 

[kbs2244]

Pex is for water plumbing.
If you don't want to use rigid, go with semi-truck air brake hose.

 

[L5wolvesf]

The compressor is an “oil free” Craftsman. I don’t plan on spray guns, maybe a die grinder and small media blast from time-to-time.

I can run a 6 ft section of ¾” black pipe (found a piece in the attic) up the wall then transition to PEX (or ??) from there. I would have to have the pipe cut to a 4 ft and a 2 ft with a tee between for the flex coming from the compressor. I could eventually plumb in a dessicant filter there too. At the bottom of the 2 ft section I could plumb in a drain valve. Would that satisfy some of the water build up and cooling issues?

Re the tool psi, thanks for the reminder, I spaced that most air tools are 90 psi. My compressor has an exit regulator, I will adjust it for 90 out.

Rapidair and semi air brake hose don’t fall into the materials available locally category.

Appreciating the input,
L

 

[hill^top]

Definitely go with the Rapidair or other nylon tubing. I have my compressor in my basement and ran 80ft of 1/2" nylon tubing in conduit to my new building, and throughout the inside. I used all push loc fittings and made it a super easy install with no leaks. I've used this material for years at work while building machine tools. Its so much easier than using black pipe and a lot less money.

I got my air line off of Ebay, but I found poweraire.com to be a good source for push loc "instant" fittings.

I don't think Pex should be used for compressed air.

 

[L5wolvesf]

. . . or other nylon tubing.

Is there other nylon tubing that is available via HD or ACE? My problem with Rapidair is, it is not locally available.

Thank you,
L

 

[SgtRauksauff]

Are you not willing to have anything shipped to you? I live in a small town where sometimes there is nothing even within a 3-hour drive, depending what I need. If you build a system that's known to work well and last, there's no need to have a local supplier of replacement parts, since there will be no need to replace parts.....

I've worked with an oil-free craftsman (25 or 30 gallon tank), and just using a die/angle grinder makes it run a LOT. I think you'll need something bigger than a 3/4" pipe to pull any substantial amount of heat/moisture out.

keep in mind, plastic is an insulator, unlike metal pipe, so it's not going to radiate heat out of the lines. As air cools, it becomes less dense and is not able to hold the moisture, so the moisture falls out. if you're insulating that, you're going to have very little temperature drop, and therefore less moisture fallout. which means more filters and replacing the dessicant more often, which could end up costing a lot more in the long run than having the piping itself be the means that radiates heat and removes moisture. Especially if you want dry air for something like a media blaster.

You're going to hang the plastic tube from the rafters, right? It's going to be just as much of a PITA to do that as it would to hang some cheap 1/2" black pipe. Conduit hangers are pretty stout, and just take one skinny lag-bolt into each place you hang it..

I weighed as many options as I could find not too long ago, and looking at the long-term costs (filters and media), black pipe was hands down the best investment.

Just something to think about before absolutely banning any thought of using black pipe.


--sarge

 

[gatchel]

I ordered 2 rapidair kits from northerntool.com. They were 89.99 each and arrived in a few days. It has been good so far. Only installed for about a week or two.

 

[foilingfool2]

www.automationdirect.com is another good place for nylon tubing and push loc fittings. You can get 100' of 1/2" nylon tubing (same stuff as in the rapidaire kit) for about $61. The push loc fittings are about $1.75 for elbows and a little more for tees.

As previously indicated poweraire is another good place (tubing is more expensive, fittings are a little cheaper).

The nylon is made for and rated for compressed air purposes. It's specs from the automationdirect site indicate a working pressure of 240psi and a burst pressure of 720 psi.

So, low cost, specifically rated for compressed air (just like rapidaire, since it is the same material), easy to order tubing and connectors. You may not find the fittings at you local home depot, but they are cheap, so order a few extras to keep on hand.

I put 100' of this in my garage with 3 drop reels and have had no issues or leaks.

 

[L5wolvesf]

Are you not willing to have anything shipped to you? I live in a small town where sometimes there is nothing even within a 3-hour drive, depending what I need. If you build a system that's known to work well and last, there's no need to have a local supplier of replacement parts, since there will be no need to replace parts.....

I've worked with an oil-free craftsman (25 or 30 gallon tank), and just using a die/angle grinder makes it run a LOT. I think you'll need something bigger than a 3/4" pipe to pull any substantial amount of heat/moisture out.

keep in mind, plastic is an insulator, unlike metal pipe, so it's not going to radiate heat out of the lines. As air cools, it becomes less dense and is not able to hold the moisture, so the moisture falls out. if you're insulating that, you're going to have very little temperature drop, and therefore less moisture fallout. which means more filters and replacing the dessicant more often, which could end up costing a lot more in the long run than having the piping itself be the means that radiates heat and removes moisture. Especially if you want dry air for something like a media blaster.

You're going to hang the plastic tube from the rafters, right? It's going to be just as much of a PITA to do that as it would to hang some cheap 1/2" black pipe. Conduit hangers are pretty stout, and just take one skinny lag-bolt into each place you hang it..

I weighed as many options as I could find not too long ago, and looking at the long-term costs (filters and media), black pipe was hands down the best investment.

Just something to think about before absolutely banning any thought of using black pipe.
--sarge

Sarge et al I appreciate the input.

With the Rapidair etc. kits I would have to buy 100ft of tubing for a 25 +- ft system. Maybe I’ll expand at some point, maybe, and probably not another 50ft, till then I would have a bunch of unused tubing sitting around. I reeeeally don’t need more stuff in the garage. Shipping just adds to the cost when HD or others are on my way to work, play, market, etc.

Also, I would prefer to make the system from common and known, to me, materials, PEX fits that description. Black pipe – not so much.

The rafter in my case is over a wall where shelving is attached. I can work flexible tubing around the shelving (and contents). Otherwise a 2 hour project becomes a 2 week or more project, stuff has to sit outside, and I need that time for car prep. Mounting the black pipe would be easy if things were not in the way.

The compressor will mostly be for air ratchet/gun (not spray), airing tires, I use electric for grinder.


Thank you,
L

 

[Hankdog1]

I have a better question that seems to have gotten past everybody. Isn't the reason behind having a portable air compressor so you can move it to whatever your working on? I could be missing something here but it seems this is more about look what I spent then being functional.

 

[L5wolvesf]

I have a better question that seems to have gotten past everybody. Isn't the reason behind having a portable air compressor so you can move it to whatever your working on? I could be missing something here but it seems this is more about look what I spent then being functional.

The reason I have a portable is because I originally got it to help out a friend who needed more capacity at his shop. The shop is no more so I brought it home to use, I don’t need it to be portable in my garage.

Since I didn’t post a pic or what I paid for it I’m not clear on the “this is more about look what I spent then being functional.” comment.

Thanks for the positive input.
L

 

[grinditout]

I would have said PEX would not work for air.

But a moved into a house that it has been in the garage for 5+ years.

I use it non stop on a 60 gal twin set up.

no problems have HF water seperatrors on the ends.

I will add they are all just standard crimped, as if being used for water.

It still amazes me.

 

[kinglake]

PEX is absolutely fine for air. For work, I have been to two PEX manufacturers and both used PEX for airlines. I have it in my shop as well with zero issues. I am not sure why any of you would say PEX won't work, but it does. If the manufacturer itself uses it for air (and other gases I might add), it will be fine.

 

[L5wolvesf]

Thanks kinglake & grinditout - experienced input.

PEX . . . I will add they are all just standard crimped, as if being used for water.

Are the crimped "better" than the push / press fits?

Thank you,
L

 

[Hankdog1]

The reason I have a portable is because I originally got it to help out a friend who needed more capacity at his shop. The shop is no more so I brought it home to use, I don’t need it to be portable in my garage.

Since I didn’t post a pic or what I paid for it I’m not clear on the “this is more about look what I spent then being functional.” comment.

Thanks for the positive input.
L

The comment was about the system you propose to put in. Your compressor won't hold up to use of mutiple tools at the same time. You will end up eventually burning it up trying to keep the air going. Therefore the comment is about it looking good instead of being functional. Need to get at least a 2 stage air compressor before you even think about plumbing anything in. You can listen to someone who knows what they are talking about as I offer compressor sales or you can listen to those that wish to drum you on because it's gonna look cool.

 

[mattrogers]

Pex is for water plumbing.
If you don't want to use rigid, go with semi-truck air brake hose.

Are you near Flagstaff? Call up the Freightliner dealer/service center there and see what 1/2 nylon air lines would run you per foot. The air brake lines are rated to at least 200psi. I'm sure they stock (or can order) the push-to-connect fittings too. You can get tees, NPT adapters, etc.

You could fasten the nylon air lines to the wall/whatever with some Adel clamps.

 

[Al Bundy]

The comment was about the system you propose to put in. Your compressor won't hold up to use of mutiple tools at the same time. You will end up eventually burning it up trying to keep the air going. Therefore the comment is about it looking good instead of being functional. Need to get at least a 2 stage air compressor before you even think about plumbing anything in. You can listen to someone who knows what they are talking about as I offer compressor sales or you can listen to those that wish to drum you on because it's gonna look cool.

The compressor he has may not really be adequate, but what is your logic behind needing a 2 stage? I didn't see anything in his posts about running multiple tools at the same time. It's just a home shop.

I'm not a fan of the Rapidair systems and the like personally. If you're going to run up in the rafters it isn't any harder to run black pipe. Maybe some pictures would help.

 

[kinglake]

Are the crimped "better" than the push / press fits?

Thank you,
L

I have used both with equal results. The push fittings are significantly more expensive than the crimp or clamp. On the other hand, you will need to purchase a crimp or clamp tool just for the PEX if you can't find one to rent or borrow. They run around $75 locally.

I personally use the clamp rings.

 

[gabe2365]

I found that my compressor tank would get hot and build up condensation. To fix the moisture and heat troubles here is how I plumbed my air compressor. I get no water in the main 60 gallon tank. I stole the idea from a guy on you tube called chevahaulic. Compressor head --> After cooler "I use junkyard snake type ac condenser" --> cheepo 5 gallon air tank for the water to accumulate in with a drain in the bottom. --> plumbed uphill into the 60 gallon compressor tank. Out of the compressor tank to a 40 micron Particulate/water filter --> 0.3 micron Coalescing filter--- then the regulator. --- then to iron pipe good luck.

 

[RECox286]

My two scents:

I have had compressed air in my shop for some 35 years now. About

10 years ago I decided to plumb the garage with a hard pipe system.

Before that, the darned hose plugged into a compressor, lay on the

floor, got stepped on, cars rolled over it, and it always seemed to be

just out of reach, however it always did its' job. I can say the same

for the pipe system now, but of course it stays on the ceiling and out

of harms' (?) way. When I work outside, the hose still lays on the

pavement, and it still does its' job. Would I suggest putting the pipe/

hose/whatever out of the way ? Sure ! b/c it looks neater, more pro-

fessional. Why listen to all the jail-house-lawyers. If you want to do

whatever it is you would like to try, then just do it, b/c no matter what

you do, if you put just a little thought into it, it will work no matter the

materials, or layout. And you can always change things around if it

seems to need "fixing" 10 years down the road. Never be afraid to try

something...I never did my first ________, until I did my first _________.

Uncle Bob

 

[Oldbear]

Pex is for water plumbing.
If you don't want to use rigid, go with semi-truck air brake hose.

I'll second that. The rating on your PEX may have a 2:1 safety ratio and be able to handle 200 psi. But I'd rather (and have done so) use synflex brake line hosing. There are push-connections or compression style. It comes in a range of colours, and is rated well above the 125-150psi your compressor will but out.

 

[ringneck]

Rapid air has more than one product. Why not look at some of their pipe, vs the coils of plastic. You probably only need a few sticks, and a handful of their plastic components. I ran roughly 200 ft of fast pipe, with eight drops and only took a few hours. An 8.5 ft stick is about $25 last time I looked, and come UPS. The 19+ are a touch cheaper, but require freight shipping. Probably a deal breaker for this application.

Just an option. I can see why you don't want 100 ft of product to solve a 25 ft problem