Motor Starter Wire Sizing
- Thread starter bczygan
- Start date
OK!!!!!
I rearranged the neurons in my brain, did some TM and girded my loins and went to the free online NEC and read 430.72 (B) and looked at the chart.
Had to stand on one foot and squint through one eye and turn the page sideways, but now I understand that 14AWG will allow up to a 45A breaker for control wiring both in the enclosure and outside. So I'm ordering one right now.
Here's the place to sign up and read the NEC free for yourself.
http://www.nfpa.org/nec/about-the-nec/free-online-access-to-the-nec-and-other-electrical-standards
Bill
I rearranged the neurons in my brain, did some TM and girded my loins and went to the free online NEC and read 430.72 (B) and looked at the chart.
Had to stand on one foot and squint through one eye and turn the page sideways, but now I understand that 14AWG will allow up to a 45A breaker for control wiring both in the enclosure and outside. So I'm ordering one right now.
Here's the place to sign up and read the NEC free for yourself.
http://www.nfpa.org/nec/about-the-nec/free-online-access-to-the-nec-and-other-electrical-standards
Bill
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sberry
Banned
Why not use a common 40 found in the store?
sberry
Banned
Could have but why not? Why go out of the way to make it harder and not "stock". If there is a harder way you will sure as he'll find it.
There is a reason they don't stock this at Home Depot,,, you don't need it, the common size is fine. I been at this near 4 decades, never used a 45 breaker. Own 200 breakers, not one hiding among them. There are 2 30's at 120v, 1 40 and the rest 15, 20, 2p 30, 50 and some 60 to feed panels. I might have a 70 and only cause I got it on clearance. Nothing that couldn't be grabbed off the shelf.
There is a reason they don't stock this at Home Depot,,, you don't need it, the common size is fine. I been at this near 4 decades, never used a 45 breaker. Own 200 breakers, not one hiding among them. There are 2 30's at 120v, 1 40 and the rest 15, 20, 2p 30, 50 and some 60 to feed panels. I might have a 70 and only cause I got it on clearance. Nothing that couldn't be grabbed off the shelf.
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OK.......
Time to figure out terminals.
Sta-Kon a good choice? Others?
Thomas and Betts crimper? Or are others adequate?
Insulated terminals or not?
Heat shrink tubing? Marine type?
Male spade terminals in the motor starter are .25x.032. Is there a standard size designation for that?
Ring terminals needed for pressure switch.
There are 5 wires coming out of the motor.
Wondering the best way to connect to them.
Bill
Time to figure out terminals.
Sta-Kon a good choice? Others?
Thomas and Betts crimper? Or are others adequate?
Insulated terminals or not?
Heat shrink tubing? Marine type?
Male spade terminals in the motor starter are .25x.032. Is there a standard size designation for that?
Ring terminals needed for pressure switch.
There are 5 wires coming out of the motor.
Wondering the best way to connect to them.
Bill
sberry
Banned
A little too much. Learning is a good thing but learning to follow some simple instructions and doing it the common some way gets the work done, then do some reverse learning and look for some of the understanding after the fact vs waiting till you think you understand every piece first.
That's a hard way to go thru it. The reason I can harp on this is that it took me a while to figure out I didn't need to use every fitting they ever invented, that every wire didn't need to be 2 sizes over along with every pipe, that plenty of air was coming out without the "best" or perfect fitting. For this type of work the word adequate and sufficient could be changed with best.
45 is the max, doesn't mean it's the best or the only size that works.
Does any of that logic make sense?
sberry
Banned
You can but along the,way it causes confusion and delay.
I called a plumber bud today. I didn't want to know everything about it and the gas won't care if I do, don't even really need to know all the calculations and that's one reason for asking, just needed to confirm that I needed to up the pipe a size or change the design some.
I gonna follow his instruction, simple. When he needed to do a service upgrade for his house he called me a couple times, today he doesn't know much about it but he did what I tell him and passed the inspection. Took him part time but got it all done in a week at the right price.
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Yes, I do understand. But you have the advantage of years and years of experience. I have never done any of this before. Just learning.
I've always been a detail oriented guy who had to know all the design parameters and engineering. As an Architectural Designer and then an Estimator, I had to know it all.
Still take that approach. OCD? I guess. Couldn't stand to just follow instructions without knowing what, when, why, where and how.
Of course I'll forget all this next month, and have to figure it all out again!!!
Bill
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Since I don't know which are cheap ones to avoid, and have heard that Sta-Kon are good, unless I hear otherwise, I'll go with them for now.
A good inexpensive crimper would be nice.
Some say uninsulated terminals with double wall shrink wrap tubing is the way to go.
One guy puts a short piece of brass tube over the barrel and crimps it in first.
Second thing is how to connect to the motor wires. I need to get a photo of that.
Bill
manwithtools
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Sta-Kon are fine, so are T&B, Panduit or most others on the market. You really don't need insulated or shrink tubing in your application. As long as there is no danger of the terminal touching any metal once they are plugged in, there is no benefit. You should turn off the power before working inside the starter enclosure, so no need for the insulated versions. If you cant find uninsulated, then use the simplest insulated versions you can find.
You already have plenty of uninsulated points of contact inside that starter enclosure, what's a couple more?
For connecting the motor wires, there are a variety of ways to do it, but for smaller motors, I really prefer Wago Lever-Nut connectors.
Available in two pole to five pole configurations.
You already have plenty of uninsulated points of contact inside that starter enclosure, what's a couple more?
For connecting the motor wires, there are a variety of ways to do it, but for smaller motors, I really prefer Wago Lever-Nut connectors.
Available in two pole to five pole configurations.
manwithtools
ALLIANCE MEMBER
They are smaller than you might think.....
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alfredeneuman
Well-known member
manwithtools
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Sta-Kon is owned by T&Band is copyrighted
Well, T&B is owned by ABB, so I guess I should have said "ABB terminals are fine as well"
sberry
Banned
Yes, that's a good tool. Whoops, I looked at the hand crimps first. A guy should have a pair. In strong hands they work. I own 2 pair of Channelock that style. I don't have ratchet and the teck doesn't either, at least not here, he uses mine.
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sberry
Banned
Here is something to consider. I don't have a package in front of me but note the listed wire sizing guide. While a 12 can be jammed in to lots of the blue connectors it is as good with a tight crimp on a yellow one. Same with 14 and blue. The yellow is so much more robust that they don't overheat or work fatigue. A cheap connector a size heavier may be better than the best a size smaller.
I apply this to hand tools also. While there is a lot of fascination to space requirements and hopping up the guts in a 1/4 ratchet I am looking at is there a way I can get a 1/2 ratchet on it. Same for impact, anything I can really gun I can get a 1/2 on with a few sockets and an extension once in a while.
I have used some of the cheaper pliers, no reason to think HF wont pick a better one if they have a chance. I have a couple pair of 9's which I brutalize and surprisingly I direct compared some and a couple pairs I bought to beat around are sharper then the pairs of " good ones" I had from my early trade days.
I looked at Lowes and Menards and got stuck with a coup[le dykes not worth buying new for. I got a 9 and it was sharp so I was going to replace some dykes but the soured me on that. I really hadn't considered HF, I am going to take a nail in with me next time and get sharp stuff. Seems the quality of the box store varies and as I mention I got a couple clones that are still sharp for 8$ 15 yrs later. Now that I notice it as a direct comparison find myself reaching for those first.
I apply this to hand tools also. While there is a lot of fascination to space requirements and hopping up the guts in a 1/4 ratchet I am looking at is there a way I can get a 1/2 ratchet on it. Same for impact, anything I can really gun I can get a 1/2 on with a few sockets and an extension once in a while.
I have used some of the cheaper pliers, no reason to think HF wont pick a better one if they have a chance. I have a couple pair of 9's which I brutalize and surprisingly I direct compared some and a couple pairs I bought to beat around are sharper then the pairs of " good ones" I had from my early trade days.
I looked at Lowes and Menards and got stuck with a coup[le dykes not worth buying new for. I got a 9 and it was sharp so I was going to replace some dykes but the soured me on that. I really hadn't considered HF, I am going to take a nail in with me next time and get sharp stuff. Seems the quality of the box store varies and as I mention I got a couple clones that are still sharp for 8$ 15 yrs later. Now that I notice it as a direct comparison find myself reaching for those first.
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sberry
Banned
My point is buy them. If you aint got them need them and way good enough if you can get past the cheap price. On all the lists you made that is a tool every serious mechanic would have in the mix.
I have 2 due to the fact there is one in my truck tools and one for the shop.
I got a lot of **** cause I am a shop but the stuff I need to take care of my stuff and make a living is really rather minimal. When I lived out in the world had everything I needed to do most anything fir in the trunk of a good sized car for the most part. I can get to most of the things I got to do with my road kit, the rest of it just makes it a little faster where repetition is time and money and we are charging or paying others to do it.
I drove old cars, still do a lot. If it was running good I didn't fuk with it, if the brake was making any kind of noise I looked at it sooner than later, paid for an oil change and a local shop with a hoist to repair a Ujoint, a muffler hanger and changes out a tire here and there as I found a better one. If it needed a brake pad its what it got. I didn't pack wheel bearings, didn't change rotor or drum unless I had to and got absolutely8 nothing against a pad swap it it makes it serviceable and certainly beats driving it around broke cause you cant afford 500 in parts to use "the best" at every turn.
I had a little air comp so I could do a tire, a box of tools or 2 I could carry, a drill and a couple saws. I didn't even have electric impact unless I was working, didn't do any more work to the stuff than I had to. A way to jack the wheel up.
If I was doing real work would rig up what and when I had to, a handful of tools to do a roof, a piece of rental equipment on occasion. You can carry most of the tools needed to wire a house in a 5 gallon bucket.
Sometimes its easier to wrench off a couple bolts than to go get the perfect tool, buy and take care of it so its easier to wrench off a couple bolts on occasion and so on. Not every mechanic fully understands extension length and possible combinations between socket length. I can seem to get a common tool on where others need 3 adapters. Same for the common combo wrench. Yes I got a few Snapons but the ones I use are simple decent ones in 12 pt of any brand and a few have different little features I can grab up if needed. A collection of some in offsets and DBE fill in. Not every piece needs to be great, I got most of it in Cman and some imports junk that has endured.
I wouldn't need it all to keep the family truckster moving.
Most or better trade work often requires the tools a guy can carry on a belt that's not provided. With installers its often similar, sign installer and electrician very similar.
I have 2 due to the fact there is one in my truck tools and one for the shop.
I got a lot of **** cause I am a shop but the stuff I need to take care of my stuff and make a living is really rather minimal. When I lived out in the world had everything I needed to do most anything fir in the trunk of a good sized car for the most part. I can get to most of the things I got to do with my road kit, the rest of it just makes it a little faster where repetition is time and money and we are charging or paying others to do it.
I drove old cars, still do a lot. If it was running good I didn't fuk with it, if the brake was making any kind of noise I looked at it sooner than later, paid for an oil change and a local shop with a hoist to repair a Ujoint, a muffler hanger and changes out a tire here and there as I found a better one. If it needed a brake pad its what it got. I didn't pack wheel bearings, didn't change rotor or drum unless I had to and got absolutely8 nothing against a pad swap it it makes it serviceable and certainly beats driving it around broke cause you cant afford 500 in parts to use "the best" at every turn.
I had a little air comp so I could do a tire, a box of tools or 2 I could carry, a drill and a couple saws. I didn't even have electric impact unless I was working, didn't do any more work to the stuff than I had to. A way to jack the wheel up.
If I was doing real work would rig up what and when I had to, a handful of tools to do a roof, a piece of rental equipment on occasion. You can carry most of the tools needed to wire a house in a 5 gallon bucket.
Sometimes its easier to wrench off a couple bolts than to go get the perfect tool, buy and take care of it so its easier to wrench off a couple bolts on occasion and so on. Not every mechanic fully understands extension length and possible combinations between socket length. I can seem to get a common tool on where others need 3 adapters. Same for the common combo wrench. Yes I got a few Snapons but the ones I use are simple decent ones in 12 pt of any brand and a few have different little features I can grab up if needed. A collection of some in offsets and DBE fill in. Not every piece needs to be great, I got most of it in Cman and some imports junk that has endured.
I wouldn't need it all to keep the family truckster moving.
Most or better trade work often requires the tools a guy can carry on a belt that's not provided. With installers its often similar, sign installer and electrician very similar.
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Sberry,
I picked up the ratcheting one yesterday, and it works great on some cheap HF terminals. Someone did a YouTube test and it came off well. Not as good as a $250 one, but much better than a cheap hand one. And it was $12 something. It is a double crimp, if that matters.
I like your approach of using what works. Helped the next door neighbor the other day, with the brakes on his daughters car. Just threw on a set of pads. No turning or replacing rotors or nuthin'.
Done and done!
Bill
I'll pick up the hand one next time I'm in there, especially for under $6.
I picked up the ratcheting one yesterday, and it works great on some cheap HF terminals. Someone did a YouTube test and it came off well. Not as good as a $250 one, but much better than a cheap hand one. And it was $12 something. It is a double crimp, if that matters.
I like your approach of using what works. Helped the next door neighbor the other day, with the brakes on his daughters car. Just threw on a set of pads. No turning or replacing rotors or nuthin'.
Done and done!
Bill
I'll pick up the hand one next time I'm in there, especially for under $6.
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sberry
Banned
I worked a couple places they had it all down to the tape measures and markers. In my own business I already reached a threshold minus a mower or 2, I cant collect more sockets, more air compressors, no reason for sheet metal equipment to build air plane wings, I will cross that bridge when I come to it. A modest torch set may make the list if I was hell bent on Michigan auto work and maybe battery impact if I was feeling flush.
There is no reason not to aspire to the ownership of a decent comp but,,, ****, what for? Find something that works and can plug in. Same for a battery charger.
All that other **** comes at the expense of truly maintain the car and fixing the house.
There is no reason not to aspire to the ownership of a decent comp but,,, ****, what for? Find something that works and can plug in. Same for a battery charger.
All that other **** comes at the expense of truly maintain the car and fixing the house.
sberry
Banned
I got a small box on a shelf for parts for cars I own and am using. There are times I need to replace new pads or rotor pad and sometimes a pad. I am on original hrotors on a 2005 with 160K on backroads. I got one thin rear rotor I noticed during an unstuck pin job the other day, I might have a new one and if I do it will get 2 new pads I already have and the 1/2 will get tossed back in the box with the rest of the hardware. I had 2 spare pins, used one the other day and a clip I had to fix an issue. I caught it in time to make it a no cost fix.
Not only I didn't have to pay someone to do it but no parts.
Not only I didn't have to pay someone to do it but no parts.
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Got the 45A Breaker today.
Need to make a bracket to mount the motor controller onto the compressor. Thinking of using a piece of 2x4 rectangular tube from an aluminum commercial door frame that I have. Still need some wire and FNC and fittings.
Thinking about plumbing...
Bill
Need to make a bracket to mount the motor controller onto the compressor. Thinking of using a piece of 2x4 rectangular tube from an aluminum commercial door frame that I have. Still need some wire and FNC and fittings.
Thinking about plumbing...
Bill