Yes sir, I've never seen a main panel wired up like this....
Thank you very much...That clears up the question I was having going through my head....
Correct...The sub has no disconnect sir....
The feeder wires from the main are connected directly to the top lugs with no disconnect breaker or anything....
There is no dis connect sir...The wires coming from the main are connected directly to the top of the sub lugs...
I know this might be a dumb question, but if fault current goes back on the neutral, why do we even have a ground wire, and ground rods...
There is a Safety Advantage of having both an Equipment Grounding Conductor (Green Wire) and a Grounded Conductor, or Neutral, (White Wire) in our electrical installations.
Thank You....
Fault current should never go back through the neutral wire. Any fault current goes back through the ground wire only, and it should never carry any current in normal operation.
Sir, Thank you very much for taking the time on your weekend to fully explain how A.C. works.... Using the other hot wire as the return...Fault current should never go back through the neutral wire. Any fault current goes back through the ground wire only, and it should never carry any current in normal operation.
It may help for some background:
240V system only:
- Two hots on different phases to give you 240V. The return path for current for each hot wire is the other hot wire. Hey, welcome to alternating current on different phases.
- One ground wire for fault currents. For example, say inside your welder one hot wire gets shorted to the welder case. You'd much prefer to have that hot/ground short trip the breaker instead of electrocuting you when you touch the welder case.
120V system only:
- One hot (could be either phase) for 120V
- One neutral that serves as the return current for the 120V hot.
- One ground wire for safety.
Where things get interesting is that sub panels are generally 240V in, so two hot wires on different phases. A ground wire to the sub panel is also required. As noted earlier, a neutral is required for sub panels in the same building. However, if, and only if, you only have 240V breakers and equipment hooked up to that sub panel then the neutral is required by the NEC but it isn't used for your equipment.
Most panels (all?) will support 120V or 240V breakers. A 240V breaker will have two contacts so you can connect up each hot phase. A 120V breaker will have a single hot phase and it will rely on the neutral for the return current path.
If it was me, I'd replace the 30' of wire to the sub panel with the right gauge and type of wire. Use 4 wires (2 hots, neutral, ground) and hook them up appropriately at both ends.
I should add that if you're using the right type of metal conduit, you can use the conduit yourself for the ground connection. This is OK according to the NEC, but it does require that the conduit be installed and connected properly. Personally, I've seen enough damaged or poorly installed conduit in my life that I prefer to run a ground wire even if I am using EMT. YMMV.
Ground rods, ufers, etc are used for two reasons. The first reason is to provide some amount of lightning protection. Not direct strikes per se, but rather ground surges and currents due to nearby lighting hits. They also provide some amount of short circuit protection if something is shorted to the earth. Although in the latter case, the resistance of the ground connection is likely too high for that to help much for anything other than high voltages and currents.
There is also equipment that requires 240V and 120V at the same time. The classic example is a dryer that uses 240V for the heating coils but also uses 120V for the front panel and controls. In this case the outlet will be wired with two hot wires (different phases), a neutral, and a ground.
Thank you for your help sir....
A neutral is NOT required in a 240 volt sub panel. A ground wire has always been required in the same building. Prior to the adoption of the 2008 NEC, a ground wire wasn't required in a separate building as long as there were no parallel metallic pathways between the buildings. The neutral was bonded, even though it was a sub panel.
I appreciate the correction on the neutral. I avoided the prior to 2008 aspects as my response was already long enough.
The reference to the six throw rule was for the main panel, which, according to the OP, has no main, nor is there a disconnect behind it. The sub panel can have as many breakers as will fit as long as there is a breaker for it in the main panel, but there isn't. Some of the things I mentioned in the course of things aren't specifically listed by the OP. He had PM'd me earlier, but when I didn't reply, he started the thread. That's where the no main and double lug wires came from.
Yes sir.... I appreciate your help.....
Agreed. I was saying the "sub-panel" isn't really that with its feed double-lugged from the other panel. Almost as if the shop has 2 (hack) services.
I thought that you thought I meant six throws between the two panels. Some of my postings were probably clear as mud since there was no mention from the OP about the lack of a main or the double up lugs. I just threw that in there since he had mentioned it in the PM he sent me while I was still asleep.
Pull the meter and start cutting.
I'll throw in $1 and say it's all perfectly fine once pics are posted.
Yes sir, I will try to get better pictures tomorrow....Sorry.....
There is a disconnect at the meter, and yes sir, I was calling this the main panel....
Yes sir, let me try this once again... sorry...
Post pictures as pictures, not asattachment.
Post pictures as pictures, not as attachment.
I am so sorry
Sir I am trying to navigate through this web site..... It would be easier to create a web site than what I'm experiencing ....
Post pictures as pictures, not as attachment.
Yes sir, let me try this once again... sorry.
Yes sir, I believe that you are right....Oh boy.....
Unless I'm missing something the black wire exiting upper right needs to be in conduit
