Need recommendation on main panel and sub panel options

[skamp]

I recently purchased a new compressor that needs 220V. I am also planning on getting a welder that will most likely require 220V as well. I am planning on running a 60-100 AMP sub panel to another section of my garage but have some concerns/questions on what to do with my existing panel.

I currently have 200 AMP service (was upgraded a few years back) going to a 20 Slot 40 circuit GE panel. I only have a single 1" empty slot left in my panel. I also have a 2" GE surge protector. I was thinking about the following options.

1. Change entire panel to a 32 or 40 slot GE panel. This is the most time consuming but provides for the most expansion for the other issues I have. There are no permits needed here so this is something I can do myself once the provider pulls the meter. It looks like a pretty easy swap but since I have never done it I am not 100% sure on the time it would take. Since it would go in the same location it should be just a matter of labeling everything, cutting the drywall to fit the longer box then reconnecting everything. If I go this route I can either still run a sub panel or just do individual circuits for the compressor and welder.

2. Remove the 2" surge protector which would free up the space needed for the additional 100 AMP breaker needed for the sub panel. I could then use the last 1" slot for a different external surge protector that uses a breaker for the panel connection. This route is pretty easy but leaves me with only a 1/2" slot left. I am not sure if it is code but I thought you should always have at least one space left in a panel. Not sure if that means a 1/2" space of full. I also have some issues/concerns with the connection of the neutral and ground.

3. Leave panel as is and install a single 50 AMP breaker for the sub panel which would now be a 50 AMP sub panel instead of 100 AMP. I think 50 is fine for the compressor and welder as they would not be used at the same time as well as the fact that the compressor only need 15 AMPS. The downside to this config is there would be 0 slots left in my panel. This setup also leaves me with the same concerns with neutral and ground connections.

As mentioned above I have some concerns about my neutral and ground connections. I do not have any additional space on the neutral or ground bars. Some of the neutrals are already doubled up which I understand to be non code compliant. Is there a way to extend the ground and neutral bars if I go with configs 2 or 3?

Here are some pictures of my existing panel.

Panel with cover on

Panel with cover off

There are a few other issues with my panel that I plan on addressing independent of adding the sub panel. I plan on swapping the 4/0 AL wire going to the meter (about 2-3 feet of wire) with 2/0 or 3/0 copper. I want to do this and the AL I installed originally is too tight in the box, I never enlarged the conduit it is in going to the meter, the neutral is on the ground bar and I don't like the bend radius for the left side hot. It is a cheap and easy fix.

I also plan on fixing the neutral connected to the top of the ground bar that is going to a different sub panel. Since the ground and neutral are bonded I know it really does not matter but I am not sure if that is code complaint but even if it is I would like it to be correct. The main ground also connects to the neutral bar but I am not sure if I will change that I would have to rerun the ground unless I go with option 1 where the extra panel length would allow me to move it to the ground bar.

Sorry for the long post but wanted to include as much detail as possible. I appreciate any input on this. Thanks!

Steve

 

[matt151617]

Why not add an additonal 100 amp meter next to it? Option 2 wouldn't work, the breaker-style surge protectors I've seen need 2 spots.

Also, what do you mean "doubled up" neutrals? Like 2 netural wires in one spot on the neutral bar? There's nothing wrong with that. And I wouldn't bother swapping out the AL with CU. It won't make any difference except for a larger hole in your wallet.

 

[pattenp]

How many single 15A & 20A circuits do you have? Do you have any that could be combined because there are not a lot of devices on them? Hard to tell from the pic but it looks like a lot of single breakers.

 

[skamp]

Why not add an additonal 100 amp meter next to it? Option 2 wouldn't work, the breaker-style surge protectors I've seen need 2 spots.

I assume you mean add a 100 AMP panel next to the main and relocate some of the existing circuits. I cannot do this as the is a wall to the left and storage units on the right. When I was talking about a new surge protector I was talking about one that was external to the box. Those types only require a single 15 amp breaker.

Also, what do you mean "doubled up" neutrals? Like 2 netural wires in one spot on the neutral bar? There's nothing wrong with that. And I wouldn't bother swapping out the AL with CU. It won't make any difference except for a larger hole in your wallet.

Yes by doubled up neutrals I mean two wires in one screw.

Steve

 

[pattenp]

Why not add an additonal 100 amp meter next to it? Option 2 wouldn't work, the breaker-style surge protectors I've seen need 2 spots.

Also, what do you mean "doubled up" neutrals? Like 2 netural wires in one spot on the neutral bar? There's nothing wrong with that. And I wouldn't bother swapping out the AL with CU. It won't make any difference except for a larger hole in your wallet.

There are surge protectors that can share a breaker with a circuit but the breaker needs to be rated to take two wires. Or you can use a wire nut with a pigtail.

 

[skamp]

How many single 15A & 20A circuits do you have? Do you have any that could be combined because there are not a lot of devices on them? Hard to tell from the pic but it looks like a lot of single breakers.

I have not counted but the bulk of the breakers are 15A. I did not think of combining but that is a very good idea. To do that I assume I would need to trace all receptacles used in each circuit to make sure I do not exceed the number allowed per circuit. If I combine is it allowed in code to connect multiple wires to a single pole breaker?

Steve

 

[pattenp]

Some breakers are made to take two wires. It will be stamped on the side of the breaker. You can always tie two circuits together with a wire nut and use a pigtail to the breaker. Don't combined any circuits unless you are sure of the loads.

Edit: I believe the GE breakers you have will only take one wire connection.

 

[hidollartoys]

To do that I assume I would need to trace all receptacles used in each circuit to make sure I do not exceed the number allowed per circuit.

Steve

There are no code restrictions on the quanity of receptacles on "general lighting" circuits.

 

[pattenp]

There are no code restrictions on the quanity of receptacles on "general lighting" circuits.

Minor correction... It's a "general purpose" branch circuit.

 

[skamp]

I think I am just going to go with option #3. It looks to be the simplest way to go. The only issue I am not sure if is any code issues with having a panel with 100% of the slots used.

My plan is to use #6 for the hots, #8 for the neutral and #10 for the ground (all THHN). I will run this in 3/4" grey PVC to the sub panel. The one question I have is what is the best way to come off a flush mounted panel to transition out of the drywall to run in the conduit? I was thinking of a PVC surface mount box where I would drill a hole in the back like this box:

Is that allowed?

Steve

 

[hidollartoys]

Minor correction... It's a "general purpose" branch circuit.

ACTUALLY it is "General Lighting Load".

 

[78Bird]

Not an electrician, but any reason not to get some of those twin 15A breakers that give you 2 in a single slot, and use those for some of the light load circuits?

Just a few would free up the space you need.

 

[skamp]

Not an electrician, but any reason not to get some of those twin 15A breakers that give you 2 in a single slot, and use those for some of the light load circuits?

Just a few would free up the space you need.

All of my 15 and 20A circuits are the thin breaker style so only take 1/2 of a slot.

Steve

 

[pattenp]

ACTUALLY it is "General Lighting Load".

Well yeah... you're talking something different now.

 

[78Bird]

All of my 15 and 20A circuits are the thin breaker style so only take 1/2 of a slot.

Steve

Shoulda looked closer, my bad

 

[skamp]

I think I am just going to go with option #3. It looks to be the simplest way to go. The only issue I am not sure if is any code issues with having a panel with 100% of the slots used.

My plan is to use #6 for the hots, #8 for the neutral and #10 for the ground (all THHN). I will run this in 3/4" grey PVC to the sub panel. The one question I have is what is the best way to come off a flush mounted panel to transition out of the drywall to run in the conduit? I was thinking of a PVC surface mount box where I would drill a hole in the back like this box:

Is that allowed?

Steve

So any thoughts on my question about the feeder coming out from the main panel behind the drywall to surface mount box? Is a box like this legal for that transition if I drill a hole in the back of the box and surface mount it?

Steve

 

[pattenp]

I don't know of any reason why you can't use that box. You are just using it as a pull through point. Get a box adapter to glue into the back hole you drill for the connection of the conduit.

 

[skamp]

I don't know of any reason why you can't use that box. You are just using it as a pull through point. Get a box adapter to glue into the back hole you drill for the connection of the conduit.

Perfect. I was just not sure what the rules were from going from inside the wall to the outside. I will drill the hole and install an adapter like you posted. Thanks!

Steve

 

[pattenp]

As long as the single wires stay in conduit you're good.

Have you thought of using a LB?

 

[skamp]

As long as the single wires stay in conduit you're good.

Have you thought of using a LB?

Yes, I looked at that type as well. I will use that or a box. I appreciate all the help here. Thanks!

Steve