Need some serious help with bathroom floor

[Gore]

Hey guys...I have been tasked with laying the tile in my parents' house and those good 'ol old house issues are rearing their ugly head. After removing the existing tile in the bathroom I was left with this mess:

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[mires]

Pics are not showing up

 

[Gore]

Sorry for the gigantic pics...I assumed they would have been clickable??? My bad.

The flange will need to be addressed as well because it looks like it placed down over jagged exposed edges of the pipe and those edges will probably need to be ground down flat.

 

[Gore]

Pics are not showing up

hmm...I'm seeing them...albeit they are huuuuge

 

[Gore]

any better?

 

[The Cobbler]

you have some serious prep work to do. the flange is probably OK if you clean up the rust scale on it. maybe use a grinder with a flap wheel to get rid of the rust on it.
what are you planning on using for flooring?

 

[Gore]

you have some serious prep work to do. the flange is probably OK if you clean up the rust scale on it. maybe use a grinder with a flap wheel to get rid of the rust on it.
what are you planning on using for flooring?

Ok, and I'm using 24" x 12" Porcelain tiles


p.s. I don't know what's going on with these pics

 

[Gore]

wtf with these pics...they show up in post preview...then ****...gone

 

[kd3pc]

Ok, and I'm using 24" x 12" Porcelain tiles


p.s. I don't know what's going on with these pics

you'll need some better/stronger subfloor for the tiles...you might want to do this BEFORE you futz with the flange, in case you need to raise it to meet the new finished floor height.

 

[PugetDude]

If you can pour self-leveling concrete over the top of the old mortar bed/subfloor, it will make this a pretty simple pjoject (you can just double up the wax ring or install an extender when you re-install the toilet. http://allthumbsdiy.com/plumbing/toilet-flange-too-low-double-wax-ring-or-extender-spacer-kit )

Second choice would be to level the floor with leveling compound, screw down 1/2" cement board, and then tile over that.

If you can't live with the extra height , it's going to be a really big job....

 

[skylar1692]

I have seen flanges in much worse condition that are still useable. It is much easier to raise the height of the flange than to lower it. I agree with PugetDude, either use a self leveling cement or maybe even dry pack cement which is more forgiving if you have not done this type of work before. With a 1/2" flange spacer/riser installed before cementing will give you the height you need to fill to minus tile thickness.

 

[Gore]

Went over and made some progress removing the loose mastic and what appeared to be concrete patching:

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[Gore]

Miraculously the floor is actually level around the perimeter of this fubar'd section.

I'm thinking fast setting concrete to fill in the void...screed it level with the surrounding area?

 

[Cave Creek Ray]

You're 75% there...

I cut the floor in my house remodel in no less than a dozen places and repaired them with no problems.

The fact that you have chipped away part of the flange area, I would just chip (or cut) the rest and then pay a plumber to come in and put a new flange on while you are there. You don't want to have to cut this all up again because the rusted flange broke tightening your commode down.

I musta missed it: Is the piping cast iron? It will take someone familiar with the piping to get the flange set properly. Use a level to make sure you get the flange up enough to accommodate the new floor surface (concrete at level -plus mortar and tile for the flange lip).

If you are convinced the flange is serviceable and level, then proceed with repairs.

Once you get the flange resolved, I'd dig out just under a lip of the foundation (1 or 2 inches below foundation) so the new pour locks in with the existing concrete. Once you get your ducks in line, pour the new concrete. I'd use high strength (5000 psi) on the repair for the extra margin. Have an extra bag on hand in case you run low on material.

I wouldn't try to use concrete as a new "leveling compound" or floor surface because concrete is loaded with aggregate and that ends up not troweling in thin layers. Work the repair in as smooth as you can and then, the next day, pour a $35 bag of Custom leveling compound over the whole floor. Use a 4" chip brush to feather in the edges after you pour. Mix the leveling compound with a drill per instructions and get it poured ASAP. The compound will start to go hot on you five minutes after pour but that's plenty of time to feather in the edges. An hour after you pour it you will be stunned at the quality of the repair you did. It will look like a new floor: Smooth as granite and ready for tile.

If you are tiling, you'll have to resolve the height difference between the hall and the bath floor. Home Depot has aluminum tile edge stripping you can cut and lay in the tile mix across the threshold if needed.

Good luck and good on ya for helping your parents out.

Ray

 

[Gore]

Do I need to wrap the cast iron pipe with something to protect from concrete expansion before pouring?

Also, while I was checking the floor for level I noticed that the flange does sit up about 1/2" - 3/4" above the slab.

 

[Cave Creek Ray]

This time of year, everything is as hot (expanded) as it will get. I am not familiar with the techniques used with cast iron pipe but the concrete will not expand after it sets up. My concern would be with repeated moisture hitting the outside of the pipe which may cause the pipe to "rot" out over time. If your wax seal is done right, you should have a dry install.

If you wanted to wrap the pipe where it will contacts the cement, you could give it a couple wraps with duct tape to insulate the pipe from the concrete. I might even spray the outside of the pipe and underside of the flange with light oil, even though that will make your tape not stick to the pipe. The tape will stick to itself and provide the barrier. A little oil barrier wouldn't hurt to stop or slow what appears to have been years of moisture leaking from the wax seal.

Ray

 

[CNGsaves]

^ ^ ^ Good advice above.

+1 to grind smooth the flange and decide if there's good metal there.

Good luck.

 

[Gore]

Ok thanks...plan of attack today...bust out the rest of the concrete around the pipe...grind and inspect flange...if all good, pour high strength concrete in void around pipe. How long before I can tile over that?...I don't have weeks to wait for this. Is fast setting concrete not ok? Or not necessary?

 

[PugetDude]

Ok thanks...plan of attack today...bust out the rest of the concrete around the pipe...grind and inspect flange...if all good, pour high strength concrete in void around pipe. How long before I can tile over that?...I don't have weeks to wait for this. Is fast setting concrete not ok? Or not necessary?

Fast setting concrete will be OK.
You're not building a containment dome for a nuclear reactor.

 

[Gore]

Fast setting concrete will be OK.
You're not building a containment dome for a nuclear reactor.

You haven't been around my dad after he eats Mexican food...

 

[PugetDude]

You haven't been around my dad after he eats Mexican food...

Pretty sure I used to be married to his sister....

 

[Gore]

I'm sorry...lol

 

[Cave Creek Ray]

The concrete will be ready overnight. If you elect to go with the leveling compound, that stuff takes 5 minutes to mix and 5 more to pour and work in. My leveling compound was hard in an hour and supposedly cured in four.

If you pour the concrete in the afternoon, level it before breakfast, and start tiling after breakfast. I think you could start tiling over the leveling compound in a couple hours. Just test an area before you move in on it. The bag said mortar ready in four hours but I was walking on it in two.

 

[Gore]

I'll be working on it tonight with any luck...I'll post pics of the damage lol...thanks for all of the help

 

[Gore]

OK...here are the pics. I wasn't able to get over there until late last night. I started by grinding the flange smooth and flattening the jagged edges of the pipe that were protruding from it. It looked surprisingly good and solid. I then broke out the concrete? that was surrounding the pipe all the way around and cleaned and prepped the area. I poured in regular high strength concrete, worked it down around the pipe and into the voids...poking it throughout to release any air. I then screeded, floated, and troweled it smooth, filling in the hole and the 2x4 void. The edges that look like spill/splatter is actually where the new concrete is filling in little broken sections.

The only issue is that I misjudged how high the flange was sitting, and it will wind up sitting below the tile. So...extra thick wax ring, rubber ring, pvc flange inside existing flange? Thoughts on a solution?

Also...I feel that I was able to get the floor surprisingly level and smooth...so much so that I may not "need" self-leveler. What thickness is acceptable for thin-set to be used to account for variance?

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[Cave Creek Ray]

Great job!

Use a wide chisel and clean the surface down of any "protuberances." Once you get the high spots down, use a straight edge and check for variances. Try laying a single tile and check for rocking. Then move it to the next tile position and check that location. If the variation is minor, the 3/8 trowel should work. If the tile is pretty wobbly, think about going 1/2" notched trowel. Just be aware that with a thicker bed, smaller tile may tend to set "wobbly" if your mortar is too thin. (Thinner mix makes laying large format tile easier -those tiles bigger that 14" on a side.) Keep a straight edge handy to make sure they are all lining up.

A technique I use is lay a row with no gaps. Get the tiles level, clean the gaps, and then float them apart and insert the spacers. Do the next row the same. **** the second row against the first. Use the straight edge to make sure they are level. Clean the mortar out of the joints. Then float the tiles apart and get the spacers in. By getting the joints butted together, any variance really shows up and that makes it easy to fix by pushing on the tile to level it.

Be sure to leave a 1/2" gap around the flange so you get a good wax seal between the commode and the flange.

Good luck!

Ray

 

[Gore]

Thanks Ray...when I left it I had troweled it pretty smooth, nothing is high...if anything it may be low...but not likely by too much. I'm doing 24"x12" tiles, so I had planned to use a 1/2 notched trowel. Great tip on laying them next to each other first.

 

[Cave Creek Ray]

You can always float the tiles on a tad more mortar.

The standard instruction with a notched trowel is wipe it along at a 45 degree angle. That squeezes out square lines of mortar at about 1/4" high. If you have a lower area to fill in, just trowel across at a straight-up 90 degrees. That spooges out a thicker mortar base for those deeper areas. You can always make sure the tiles are level by leaning on them with a straight edge starting on the previous row or two. You'll get it down.

Can't wait to see the finished pics.

Oh, and just to save yourself the aggravation if you haven't set a toilet in awhile: Don't forget to barely snug up the flange bolts to the commode base. A half turn past finger tight on the nuts is as far as you wanna go or you risk breaking the toilet base. You should be OK with an extra thick waxie but you can always get another regular one to have just in case. While you are grabbing the waxie, be sure to grab a pack of spacer/shims to put under the commode base. After I get it snugged down and rock check it gently to make sure it's shimmed and supported and not rocking, then I put a nice bead of caulk all the way around the base to both support it all the way around and to seal off any sewer gasses that might find their way out that waxie.

 

[The Cobbler]

looking good!

 

[mires]

Oh, and just to save yourself the aggravation if you haven't set a toilet in awhile: Don't forget to barely snug up the flange bolts to the commode base. A half turn past finger tight on the nuts is as far as you wanna go or you risk breaking the toilet base. You should be OK with an extra thick waxie but you can always get another regular one to have just in case. While you are grabbing the waxie, be sure to grab a pack of spacer/shims to put under the commode base. After I get it snugged down and rock check it gently to make sure it's shimmed and supported and not rocking, then I put a nice bead of caulk all the way around the base to both support it all the way around and to seal off any sewer gasses that might find their way out that waxie.

A couple of things here. You're gonna want to tighten up that toilet a lot more than just a half turn past finger tight. I get that you don't want to break it, but that would not tighten it down sufficiently. I have installed hundreds of toilets and have never broken or cracked one. You will know when a toilet is about to crack. It will "sing" to you. That's when you back off.

I do agree with the caulking around the base but I leave a couple inches open in the rear that you can't see. Reason being that if it does happen to leak, it gives it a place to present itself so you are aware of it and can address the problem.

 

[Gore]

Went by tonight to check my handy work and to see how the concrete looked...here are pics of the tiles just laying on the floor, without thin-set, on the repaired area and next to a tile on the "good" area...I'm pretty pleased

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[PugetDude]

Looks good, great job on the concrete.
Based on the pics, I say you can skip the self-leveling cement, use a 1/2" notched trowel and go straight to tiling.

You might want to consider an isolation membrane on the repaired floor before you start laying the new tile- since there are so many different surfaces/patches, etc.

 

[Gore]

Thanks man...I was pretty pleased with myself when I checked it out.

Probably over-thinking this...but is there a standard gap between the tiles and the existing flange? Just curious how to plan my cut.

I'm thinking 1/8" against the shower pan...and close enough for baseboard to cover on the walls.

 

[PugetDude]

Thanks man...I was pretty pleased with myself when I checked it out.

Probably over-thinking this...but is there a standard gap between the tiles and the existing flange? Just curious how to plan my cut.

I'm thinking 1/8" against the shower pan...and close enough for baseboard to cover on the walls.

I shoot for the same gap all around- spacers, edges, obstructions. The quality of my work improved when I started doing this- made me more conscious of being more accurate whenever I marked and cut a tile-doing this on all the tiles, instead of just the "important" ones translated into a neater, more professional overall job.

 

[Gore]

Good idea, but what about the flange? That gap wouldn't allow for bolts to be slid in...

 

[Gore]

Ok, quick update. Went by today and cut all of the tile and got it all laid out. I wish Bathfitters wouldn't have placed the side trim pieces until the flooring was in because I had to find a way to cut the tile in a rather tight radius to fit the shape. Had they waited they could have just just ran them down on top of the tile. I also watched a Youtube video today on how to cut the hole for the toilet flange using a grinder and kind of tilting/sweeping the blade...I think it came out pretty good. Ok...here are the pics:

p.s. the tiles aren't in thin-set as of yet, just laid out for a test fit:

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[shepherd]

Great work. I've been mulling a bath reno in our on suite, this may push me off the fence...

 

[Gore]

Great work. I've been mulling a bath reno in our on suite, this may push me off the fence...

Do it....doooooo iiiiiiiitttt

 

[Cave Creek Ray]

Outstanding work!!!

Imagine how much what you have done would cost had you hired it out...

Good on you for taking it on.

Ray

 

[The Cobbler]

Great job! You know the reward for a job well done? more work!LOL