Network cable from house to detached garage

[OccupantRJ]

In the shop, I ran my network cable to a 4 outlet Keystone wall plate. The other 3 runs in the shop also attach to the back of this plate. I have the router plugged into the port from the house, then the other router outlet connections plug into the other ports in the plate as required, to feed where they are run to. With this method I could also use a jumper from the feed port to another if I wanted to place the router in another location for a reason. I have the same setup on the house end. No special tools needed other than a push-down tool, which comes with the Keystone jacks.

 

[Showkey]

Only 117Mbps?

My internet is 180mbps+ so your system wouldnt cut it for me or someone with higher bandwidth.

My cable is rated at 100 Mbps. Down and 10 up........that’s witha recent upgrade from 60 down and 5 up. The router is rated at 1,733 Mbps so guess it would work for most and the 180 would not be an issue.

 

[Showkey]

HE HAS THE TRENCH OPEN. why would he got with a half *** solution when the hard part is done to hard wire it?


for 330 bucks you could hard wire 3 of these in: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B015PRCBBI/?tag=atomicindus08-20 and cover many acres.

That what the last 10 threads were about.........wire or not wire ........my whole house is hard wired and not being used because its obsolete. I have one device out of 22 that actually has the ability to connect witha wire. Mesh is far from half assed and I have been down the multiple router thing. Mesh covers the area with little or no hassles.

Also not interested in system mentioned especially with wide coverage that is not open area ..........what is the range of the wifi? is it a bubble or oval dependinding on how its mouted? I am mounting it on a wall and need to wifi behind it as well.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

a repeater basically just runs the same SSID as the house so you can seamlessly transition from the house to the shop as you walk out to it. a non issue unless you're constantly on a VOIP call

Not quite, that's just roaming to another AP with the same SSID on the same network, preferably on a non-overlapping frequency, standard practice maintaining full bandwidth.

A "repeater" is a very different animal, and performs its function by re-broadcasting the SAME signal out another antenna.

"repeater mode" on an access point takes one radio, buffers the packets and re-transmits them. it needs to be located where it has good signal to both endpoints, and cuts available bandwidth in half per hop.
The dual-band versions can forfeit "wifi" operation on one band (usually 2.4 for longer range), and rebroadcast only on 5GHz. this has no performance penalty if signal levels are within tolerance.

 

[jeepxj]

Not quite, that's just roaming to another AP with the same SSID on the same network, preferably on a non-overlapping frequency, standard practice maintaining full bandwidth.

A "repeater" is a very different animal, and performs its function by re-broadcasting the SAME signal out another antenna.

"repeater mode" on an access point takes one radio, buffers the packets and re-transmits them. it needs to be located where it has good signal to both endpoints, and cuts available bandwidth in half per hop.
The dual-band versions can forfeit "wifi" operation on one band (usually 2.4 for longer range), and rebroadcast only on 5GHz. this has no performance penalty if signal levels are within tolerance.

I only run ubiquiti gear. same SSID, multiple heads. only 1 packet drop between APs.

 

[jeepxj]

That what the last 10 threads were about.........wire or not wire ........my whole house is hard wired and not being used because its obsolete. I have one device out of 22 that actually has the ability to connect witha wire. Mesh is far from half assed and I have been down the multiple router thing. Mesh covers the area with little or no hassles.

Also not interested in system mentioned especially with wide coverage that is not open area ..........what is the range of the wifi? is it a bubble or oval dependinding on how its mouted? I am mounting it on a wall and need to wifi behind it as well.

The golden standard is access points with wired backhauls.

 

[jeepxj]

After a little more research, I think I will go wired. I can always go wireless in the future, but for now, this seems like the better option. So I'll probably go with cat 6 burial cable. Anything else that I should look for in a wire?

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burying cat 6 will be plenty for basic shop use for many many years to come.

make sure the wire is direct burial approved. also spend the money on getting real copper wire. CCA is copper clad AL and about half the price of real copper.

 

[Showkey]

The golden standard is access points with wired backhauls.

I am good with the silver standard...........its a home network

 

[DC73]

. . . garage that is about 100 ft away from my house in the backyard.

With your garage having separate electric, connecting a cable for internet between the house and garage could result in a nasty ground loop and potentially fried equipment.

For example, if lightning strikes the ground near your property, it sets up a potential difference between the ground at the garage and the ground at the house. That potential difference causes current to flow between the two points via the path of least resistance. Often, the copper wires of the LAN cable will be that point of least resistance and the current is high enough to fry equipment on either end.

One solution is to connect the two grounding points together with sufficient cable size to avoid the potential difference and subsequent current flow. That solution may be impractical given the distance and cost.

Another option is an optical isolator to break up the current path. I've forgotten as to whether it's recommended to put optical isolators on both ends or if just one is good enough.

Going completely wireless is another option.

If you live in an area without a lot of lightning and few, if any, issues with surges on the power line, you may get by with disregarding this info. If you live in Florida (the lightning capital of the US), it's not a matter of if it will happen, it's a matter of when.

Your power company may have some good advice to offer on the subject if you can make contact with one of the engineers.

DC

 

[derekeh]

With your garage having separate electric, connecting a cable for internet between the house and garage could result in a nasty ground loop and potentially fried equipment.

For example, if lightning strikes the ground near your property, it sets up a potential difference between the ground at the garage and the ground at the house. That potential difference causes current to flow between the two points via the path of least resistance. Often, the copper wires of the LAN cable will be that point of least resistance and the current is high enough to fry equipment on either end.

One solution is to connect the two grounding points together with sufficient cable size to avoid the potential difference and subsequent current flow. That solution may be impractical given the distance and cost.

Another option is an optical isolator to break up the current path. I've forgotten as to whether it's recommended to put optical isolators on both ends or if just one is good enough.

Going completely wireless is another option.

If you live in an area without a lot of lightning and few, if any, issues with surges on the power line, you may get by with disregarding this info. If you live in Florida (the lightning capital of the US), it's not a matter of if it will happen, it's a matter of when.

Your power company may have some good advice to offer on the subject if you can make contact with one of the engineers.

DC

Would a surge protector on both ends take care of this?

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[jeepxj]

With your garage having separate electric, connecting a cable for internet between the house and garage could result in a nasty ground loop and potentially fried equipment.

For example, if lightning strikes the ground near your property, it sets up a potential difference between the ground at the garage and the ground at the house. That potential difference causes current to flow between the two points via the path of least resistance. Often, the copper wires of the LAN cable will be that point of least resistance and the current is high enough to fry equipment on either end.

One solution is to connect the two grounding points together with sufficient cable size to avoid the potential difference and subsequent current flow. That solution may be impractical given the distance and cost.

Another option is an optical isolator to break up the current path. I've forgotten as to whether it's recommended to put optical isolators on both ends or if just one is good enough.

Going completely wireless is another option.

If you live in an area without a lot of lightning and few, if any, issues with surges on the power line, you may get by with disregarding this info. If you live in Florida (the lightning capital of the US), it's not a matter of if it will happen, it's a matter of when.

Your power company may have some good advice to offer on the subject if you can make contact with one of the engineers.

DC

Ok now you're just making stuff up here. You actually believe that the ethernet cable between two buildings will be of lesser resistance over the #6 grounding wire he will put between his main panel and the subpanel in the garage? Never mind the fact he will also have a pair of grounding rods at the main and another pair at the sub panel since its a seperate building?

You guys are nuts and going way overboard here for what is a dead simple network drop.

 

[Tmart86]

Ok now you're just making stuff up here. You actually believe that the ethernet cable between two buildings will be of lesser resistance over the #6 grounding wire he will put between his main panel and the subpanel in the garage? Never mind the fact he will also have a pair of grounding rods at the main and another pair at the sub panel since its a seperate building?

You guys are nuts and going way overboard here for what is a dead simple network drop.

Ground potential between two buildings is a thing for sure. Just be safeand put quality surge protection on both ends or do a fiber link between the buildings. Fiber is cheap enough now you might as well.

 

[jeepxj]

Ground potential between two buildings is a thing for sure. Just be safeand put quality surge protection on both ends or do a fiber link between the buildings. Fiber is cheap enough now you might as well.

is it enough of a thing to matter when you have a grounding wire between the buildings that is bonded all together?

 

[HenryAZ]

That may not work for the OP since it sounds like the garage will be on a separate electrical service....

Network connections between two buildings with separate electrical service should always be either fiber or a Wi-Fi point-to-point setup. Copper in this case is a no-no, due to the different ground potentials of the two buildings. Fried network equipment or wires can result.

Fiber is pretty easy to run these days. You would need a switch at each end with a fiber uplink.

 

[Tmart86]

is it enough of a thing to matter when you have a grounding wire between the buildings that is bonded all together?

Based on the lighting damage jobs ive done yes.

 

[derekeh]

I know nothing about fiber. What kind should I look for?

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[u3b3rg33k]

I know nothing about fiber. What kind should I look for?

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singlemode has "infinite" bandwidth (100Gb/s+) and is inexpensive. multimode has more limited bandwidth and costs more per unit length, but the equipment is a bit cheaper, and less sensitive to dirt/dust.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I know nothing about fiber. What kind should I look for?

you need a length of fiber and 2 fiber to copper media converters.

make sure to get everything in either single mode or multi-mode...

you can buy preterminated fiber too...

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003AVRLZI/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[outdoorspace]

I ran fiber because I was worried about lightning damage. We've had a hit on the house and also a tree 50' away.

I used this outdoor fiber: https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/112706471460

For the media converter I used a Mikrotik hAP ac with SFP and dual band wifi. You'll need SFP modules too. It works great.

 

[ripperd]

is it enough of a thing to matter when you have a grounding wire between the buildings that is bonded all together?

Agree with the other poster, still need surge protection.

We had lightening strike a neighbors house probably 100+ feet away and the 20' long buried ethernet cable next to our house and shed still picked up some juice and fried the switches on both ends. We did not have surge protection on it, thinking heck, its such a short run, couldn't be an issue, could it?

Also FYI, ethernet is NOT ground path. Ethernet is galvanically isolated with tiny transformers inside every ethernet jack. They protect from voltage differences of up to something like 2,000volts. Plenty for general usage, but not enough protection for lightening. https://electronics.stackexchange.c...re-ethernet-rj45-sockets-magnetically-coupled

 

[derekeh]

Is the fiber strong enough to pull in lengths around 250ft? Stiff? Kink easy?

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[outdoorspace]

Is the fiber strong enough to pull in lengths around 250ft? Stiff? Kink easy?

My fiber pulled easily 150' in 2" conduit with two sweeps. The sweeps for the 2" conduit are about the minimum recommended bend radius. You can get the fiber with pulling eyes, mine did not have it and was not needed. I think the key is to get an "outdoor" rated fiber. I believe mine is reinforced with kevlar for pulling. With 2 or 2-1/2 conduit I think 250' will be okay.

The ends are very flexible (fragile) once they leave the outer sheath. I just wrapped them up with tape to the pulling cord and it was no problem. The sheath itself is very stiff, much stiffer/stronger than CAT5.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

is it enough of a thing to matter when you have a grounding wire between the buildings that is bonded all together?

yes because that copper wire used for the EGC will not ground lightning.

To ground lightning you need a grounding electrode aka ground rods.

you are confusing 2 different animals...

 

[lweeks]

I ran OM4 MMO (multi-mode) fiber inside my house from my wall mounted network cabinet to my basement equipment rack. I plan to also run a pair of fiber cables to the garage when we re-pour the driveway and garage floor in the spring and I have access to run conduit.

I recommend fs.com (Fiber Store). It's a Chinese company, but has good service and quality. They will customize lengths. 250 feet of OM4 duplex LC LC MMO riser rated fiber is about $52.00. (p/n OM4-LC-LC-DX-FS-XM-PVC) Booted high density cable is ~ $88.00. (OM4-ULC-DX) Armored cable is ~ $102. (OM4-**-**-DXAM-FS)

LC is the terminating connector type, and what you would likely need for a residential application.

With the prices of fiber and optics available, and more and more inexpensive switches having SFP ports, it's a no brainer to run fiber between switches. The fiber can easily go to 10G or 40G later when port prices drop and you upgrade.

Between campus structures, even if they did share electrical service I would absolutely run fiber. Unless your building is more than 700 feet away, I'd run two OM4 MMO duplex patch cables, either do LACP across them or leave one dark as a spare, in their own dedicated conduit. OM4 is good to 100G today. I doubt a residential user will need more than that. No need for nor advantage to single mode and the added expense at shorter distances. I'd also personally use standard riser OM4 MMO patch cable or the booted HD cable, not armored. Don't think it's necessary it if you take your time with the install, it'll be in conduit anyway.

 

[slowTA]

Can you put power and fiber optic cable in the same conduit?

 

[lweeks]

Can you put power and fiber optic cable in the same conduit?

I would not. The NEC does permit nonconductive fiber in the same conduit as current carrying conductors, with restrictions. Given the restrictions, I'd not do it unless there were no other alternative. Also check local code.

Then, if you did, I would absolutely run an innerduct within the electrical conduit, and run the fiber through that duct, not mixed with electrical wires.

Note that you absolutely cannot run cat5/6 or any other low voltage cabling in the same conduit as electrical service wires.

 

[slowTA]

I would not. The NEC does permit nonconductive fiber in the same conduit as current carrying conductors, with restrictions. Given the restrictions, I'd not do it unless there were no other alternative. Also check local code.

Then, if you did, I would absolutely run an innerduct within the electrical conduit, and run the fiber through that duct, not mixed with electrical wires.

Note that you absolutely cannot run cat5/6 or any other low voltage cabling in the same conduit as electrical service wires.

Got it on the low voltage cable in with power, just had no clue about the non-conductive fiber in the mix too.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I would not. The NEC does permit nonconductive fiber in the same conduit as current carrying conductors, with restrictions. Given the restrictions, I'd not do it unless there were no other alternative. Also check local code.

Then, if you did, I would absolutely run an innerduct within the electrical conduit, and run the fiber through that duct, not mixed with electrical wires.

Note that you absolutely cannot run cat5/6 or any other low voltage cabling in the same conduit as electrical service wires.

there are Catergory cables rated for line voltage which can be ran with electrical wires...

 

[derekeh]

Iweeks, how long did it take for you to receive your fiber?

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[sennister]

Late to the party but I agree that fiber in separate conduit is the best route.

Personally I use Ubiuqui Network gear at home for covering my wired/wireless network and router. I have been very happy with them and run multiple VLANs for my internal systems vs other stuff like IoT devices (home automation) and the kids stuff. This protects the untrusted devices from the ones I care about and for the kids it lets me set firewall rules that shut things down at certain times. Their internet cuts out at 9pm both on wired and wireless. This is way more complex than what the average person wants but it works very well. Their access points have really good range as well. I have one of their Pro access points in the house mainly because of the device count. Then out in the pole barn I have a Long Range AP. While my pole barn isn't far away, (60') I do have steel siding on the house and pole barn which knocks down coverage. Even with the steel siding, when doing rolling firmware updates when the AP in the house goes down, about half my devices will pop up on the pole barn LR AP. That is one of the best things about Ubiquiti, they use a controller to manage everything and that can give you a single configuration page for all the devices. I used to play the game of multiple access points and setting the same SSID and password on both for roaming but when all the devices are centrally managed and they know about each other it works so much better.

I can't post a link but Ubiquiti does make 8 port managed switches with a couple fiber uplink ports. If it were me, that is the route I would take but that is mainly because it would integrate into my existing system best. Someone else mentioned a media converter. That would work just fine as well. Back when I was a network engineer for the military that is what we used. A question was asked about Single Mode and Multi Mode fiber. The response was mainly about speed. I don't know that this is an issue or not but when I worked with it, the bigger issue is distance. Multi Mode is good for roughly 500 meters and Single Mode is good for roughly 5000 meters. I don't recall the distance of your run but that was more of the deciding factor for us. So that means anything interconnecting buildings was Single Mode. Just because they were probably going to be over a 500 meter run. The only place we would use Multi Mode was within the data centers to interconnect servers. When we do the new garage build my CAT5 cable run will be abandoned and I will use Multi Mode in conduit from the new attached garage to the pole barn.

I saw another question on CAT5e or CAT6. Go with CAT6. I know it sounds like you are doing fiber but even for any internal runs in the building. CAT6 can carry data faster (up to 10 gig) where CAT5e can't. It is also better for PoE (Power over Ethernet). I use PoE from my switch to power my wifi access points so I don't need to mount a power brick up on the ceiling. It can also power other stuff like security cameras. CAT5e is obsolete so don't use it. If you get a really good deal on it that is fine but CAT6 isn't much different in cost so just go with that. The wire is the same, it is just how they twist it in the cable.

 

[Showkey]

This is exactly the way the threads went..........solutions from simple WiFi to separate conduit , switches, cat cable to fiber etc complete with grounding and lightening issues , the ablility to carry 10gig to the shop

 

[sennister]

Is the fiber strong enough to pull in lengths around 250ft? Stiff? Kink easy?

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Hmm, Fiber can be pulled but we were not doing DIY installations. My concern will be damaging the fiber where the connector is. In our case this wasn't a concern because we were not installing completed cables. The fiber run comes into a building and is terminated in a fiber optic patch panel. You have to have special equipment to terminate the end on the cable kind of like what fs.com does when they make the cable for you. When they are terminating in a patch panel they cut the first few feet off the end of the cable and then use a machine that aligns the glass in the fiber optic cable and then melts them together. These ends are going to be a weak point. In my case I am not too concerned. I am looking at maybe a 20' run through conduit.

I guess my question is how are you going to pull it? Do you have a 250' fish tape? I would try and split up the pull if possible. Kinking can be an issue but unless you install a 6" conduit, it shouldn't be an issue. It shouldn't kink in a 1" or so conduit. I would still unroll it from the spool assuming it ships that way. Also however you attach what you are pulling with don't attach it to the connector or you will likely rip it off. I guess that is the benefit of pulling CAT6, you can pull it and then terminate it to length with tools that cost $20. Even if you went all out on a really nice crimper like I have, you will still need less than $100 of tools.

 

[sennister]

This is exactly the way the threads went..........solutions from simple WiFi to separate conduit , switches, cat cable to fiber etc complete with grounding and lightening issues , the ablility to carry 10gig to the shop

There are lots of ways to skin a cat as they say.

Ubiquiti makes really nice mesh outdoor PoE powered access points that will work well. I have a co worker that uses Ubiquiti to sent a wireless signal from his sister's house in town to where he lives out in the country because there is no ISP option for him. I think it is roughly a 7 mile shot with directional antennas. Yes, a wireless network sending the signal 7 miles.

 

[b-boy]

Is the fiber strong enough to pull in lengths around 250ft? Stiff? Kink easy?

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You can buy a special pulling sock for fiber. As long as you're not pulling on the connectors, you should be OK. I used it to pull 250ft of fiber. Our network guy used these to pull over 1000ft of fiber on one of our freighters.

This is the one I used: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07DHZT5CB/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[lweeks]

Iweeks, how long did it take for you to receive your fiber?

My last order shipped the next day, via UPS 2 day air. But I imagine it all depends on what's in stock. A custom cable I would expect to take longer.

 

[lweeks]

This is exactly the way the threads went..........solutions from simple WiFi to separate conduit , switches, cat cable to fiber etc complete with grounding and lightening issues , the ablility to carry 10gig to the shop

To a garage/workshop, it may be overkill for bandwidth considerations -- today. But if I had the opportunity to run it easily, fiber is a no brainer to a detached building, rather than wireless. That building might have an office built in it someday, or have an AP installed to extend the wireless coverage reliably with wired backhaul. Given the relatively small cost differential of fiber vs copper now and the advantages to fiber, I wouldn't consider running copper, even discounting any ground plane considerations.

In my case, I'll certainly do at least 10G inside my network at some point. Already have a pair of 10G interconnects in my blade chassis. Before long SFP+ ports on switches will be replacing 1G SFP, even on prosumer switches. My home network service is already synchronous full gigabit fiber from AT&T. Consumer devices are already getting 2.5G and 5G ethernet ports. The world is only going to demand (and provide) more and more bandwidth, so may as well be prepared for that.

 

[lweeks]

I guess my question is how are you going to pull it? Do you have a 250' fish tape? I would try and split up the pull if possible. Kinking can be an issue but unless you install a 6" conduit, it shouldn't be an issue. It shouldn't kink in a 1" or so conduit. I would still unroll it from the spool assuming it ships that way. Also however you attach what you are pulling with don't attach it to the connector or you will likely rip it off. I guess that is the benefit of pulling CAT6, you can pull it and then terminate it to length with tools that cost $20. Even if you went all out on a really nice crimper like I have, you will still need less than $100 of tools.

Ideally you would use the shop vac method to **** a pull string through the conduit first. With that in, use a pulling sock, secured with tape to the cable, as mentioned in another post. It needs to be a long sock, to pull on the body of the cable, not the terminated connector ends. You would want to leave the pull string in the conduit, so you have at least double the length of the conduit. Tie a butterfly loop where you connect the pull sock.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

There are lots of ways to skin a cat as they say.

Ubiquiti makes really nice mesh outdoor PoE powered access points that will work well. I have a co worker that uses Ubiquiti to sent a wireless signal from his sister's house in town to where he lives out in the country because there is no ISP option for him. I think it is roughly a 7 mile shot with directional antennas. Yes, a wireless network sending the signal 7 miles.

Couple years ago i did a 46mile wireless bridge using ubiquiti air fiber 5s. It was about 3,500' in elevation difference too.

 

[jeepxj]

yes because that copper wire used for the EGC will not ground lightning.

To ground lightning you need a grounding electrode aka ground rods.

you are confusing 2 different animals...

what am i missing in the theory here:

primary building has 2 grounding rods.

secondary building has 2 ground rods.

a piece of #6 between all 4 rods.

they sure sound bonded to me.

 

[jeepxj]

There are lots of ways to skin a cat as they say.

Ubiquiti makes really nice mesh outdoor PoE powered access points that will work well. I have a co worker that uses Ubiquiti to sent a wireless signal from his sister's house in town to where he lives out in the country because there is no ISP option for him. I think it is roughly a 7 mile shot with directional antennas. Yes, a wireless network sending the signal 7 miles.

those nice cheap 130$ all in solutions go 15km by spec. with a new antenna i think its up to 30 or 35 even.