Neutral wire needed for typical 220 welder/plasma?

[rattle_snake]

I am installing 2 runs of #6 NM to support future welder/plasma cutter type equipment. Should I run 6/3 or will 6/2 (no neutral wire) support most of the welders out there?
6/3 is 50% higher cost.

 

[ForceFed70]

6ga. That's a lot of juice. Might want to consider 8ga if cost is a concern. I've been able to cut and weld 1/4" steel no problem with a 20A 240V circuit. Haven't tripped the breaker yet.

I'd run the 6/3 just because I like the versatility. Never know when you might want to turn that outlet into a small subpanel or whatever. But I can tell you that both my 240V miller mig welder and my hypertherm 240v plasma cutter both require 240V only. The circuit I plug them into has no neutral.

 

[pattenp]

It's a personal choice. All you need is 6/2, but as said the 6/3 will give you other uses if needed. You can leave the neutral not connected and use the standard 6-50 outlet that welders commonly use. If in the future you need 120/240V then you can change the outlets.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

The 6/2 will be a lot easier to get everything into the box versus 6/3,depending on what style of box/outlet you're using of course.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

No neutral needed for 240v equipment.

 

[RocketScott]

I ran 6-3 for my welder. Was going to just run 6-2 since that's all it needs but Home Depot had a 4' remnant of 6-3. The sales person didn't care to figure out the price so they just gave it to me. I also figure that if I get a new welder I might need the extra wire.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I ran 6-3 for my welder. Was going to just run 6-2 since that's all it needs but Home Depot had a 4' remnant of 6-3. The sales person didn't care to figure out the price so they just gave it to me. I also figure that if I get a new welder I might need the extra wire.

What extra wire?

The neutral?

There is NO 240v welder that needs a neutral!

 

[Thumper68]

[/b]

What extra wire?

The neutral?

There is NO 240v welder that needs a neutral!

As of right now but who knows in 10 years.

Edited to add:
(I had to go look at the manual)
My main welder draws 53 amps at full power so I need a 60 amp service, go with the 6ga you might not need it today but future proofing is cheaper in the long run.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

As of right now but who knows in 10 years.

240v equipment would NEVER need a neutral.

240v welders have been around for decades and the design hasnt changed and wont change because again 240v equipment doesnt need a neutral.

 

[Thumper68]

240v equipment would NEVER need a neutral.240v welders have been around for decades and the design hasnt changed and wont change because again 240v equipment doesnt need a neutral.

Nope my stove and dryer both require a neutral.

I have used 3 ph welders that had 120 volt outlets on them while I was in school, in fact my favorite welder in school was a old Lincoln that had the 120 volt outlet on it for plugging in a weld positioner or grinder etc..

The one I used was much older than this.

 

[Norcal]

Nope my stove and dryer both require a neutral.

A range or dryer is not a 240 volt appliance! They are 120/240V.

 

[Thumper68]

A range or dryer is not a 240 volt appliance! They are 120/240V.

Splitting hairs.

My stove uses the ground in a 8-2 as the neutral why because I was not going to rip out a ceiling to install the proper wire to meet the new code so does that make it a 120/240 appliance or a 240 appliance?

My initial point was that things change, either the code in the case of stoves and dryers or in what manufactures produce. In this case the cost of an extra wire in the sheath might just save time and money later.

 

[md21722]

Its very unlikely that a plasma or welder would ever require a neutral. Some of these homeowner appliances date way back when ground was used as neutral. But welders and plasmas generally aren't a homeowner appliance. Apples and oranges.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Splitting hairs.

My stove uses the ground in a 8-2 as the neutral why because I was not going to rip out a ceiling to install the proper wire to meet the new code so does that make it a 120/240 appliance or a 240 appliance?

My initial point was that things change, either the code in the case of stoves and dryers or in what manufactures produce. In this case the cost of an extra wire in the sheath might just save time and money later.

Its not splitting hairs. Its details.

And nice hack work by the way using the bare ground wire as a neutral. Thats a good way to shock someone.

And it still means your stove is 120v/240v as the controls are seeing 120v NOT 240v. If instead the controls were 240v, then it would be a 240v only appliance. But now u have 120v neutral current flowing on an uninsulated wire.

U have proven that u dont know what youre talking about.

And BTW the welder u used had a transformer in it. Whoops

 

[William Payne]

Yeah what's up with you guys using bare wire for earth? Im used to it being a green and yellow cable.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yeah what's up with you guys using bare wire for earth? Im used to it being a green and yellow cable.

Nothing wrong with it. And we also use green or green/yellow stripe.

 

[William Payne]

Nothing wrong with it. And we also use green or green/yellow stripe.

Yeah I know it works fine, just had never seen it before until I started following US based forums and tv reno show (this old house and such).

 

[nadogail]

Sometimes when I read the discussions in these forums I begin to realize how much like a dinosaur I am.

My welder, a Hobart StickMate is fed from a 50 Amp breaker in a main panel and connected with 3 conducter 8 gauge SE Cable to a 50 Amp receptacle. The welder is grounded through the power cord.

Because the third conductor lands on the Grounded Neutral bus, the third conductor functions as the equipment grounding conductor.

I considered the duty cycle of the welder when calculating demand. I also took into consideration that Hobart installed a 12 gauge power cord on the welder.

I'm open to comments and criticism.

The welder receptacle is less than 6 feet from the panel.

I guess there are many ways to connect a welder

 

[sberry]

Nothing wrong with that. I am not sure I understand the many ways though. Only 2 pole 3 wire grounded.

 

[RocketScott]

[/b]

What extra wire?

The neutral?

There is NO 240v welder that needs a neutral!

I'm a framer, not a welder. I don't know what is out there on the market.

That outlet might not always be for welder either. I frame in the northwest rain forest. It's entirely likely that I will want to put a dryer in my shop.

My stick welder has a fan that was added on. It runs on 220 but I like having the option to run something like that, or other accessories, on 110.

Did I mention the wire was free?

 

[lazer50]

6/2 is fine no neutral needed.i used 8/2 but only ran 2 ft to outlet. The equipment i use is a lincoln square wave 275 tig. A power mig 255 and a hyper t h e r m power max 800 plasma cutter.

 

[sberry]

I'm a framer, not a welder. I don't know what is out there on the market.

That outlet might not always be for welder either. I frame in the northwest rain forest. It's entirely likely that I will want to put a dryer in my shop.

My stick welder has a fan that was added on. It runs on 220 but I like having the option to run something like that, or other accessories, on 110.

Did I mention the wire was free?

This is exactly the kinds of thing the code tries to prevent but someone can always come along and defeat it if they try hard enough. You aint sposed to be hooking junk to these circuits.

 

[RocketScott]

This is exactly the kinds of thing the code tries to prevent but someone can always come along and defeat it if they try hard enough. You aint sposed to be hooking junk to these circuits.

What junk would that be?

 

[sberry]

There is nothing wrong with free wire, nothing wrong with a neutral but one doesn't need to go out of the way or add expense to put it in either. You will not overheat an 8 with anything that has factory cord and only 250 migs require that and then only at top end not found at home anyway.
Nothing wrong with 6 wire either, its only 2 sizes bigger and in some cases 3 that actually needed to serve the load. About like an inch pipe to supply a 3/8 air ratchet.
In the case of welders and other equipment it is meant to be plugged in to a current limited circuit possibly without other over current protection. The mfg supplies it with a cord and wire sufficient and an end on it to match opcd.
The internals of the machine are designed for this, in the case of the welder it has a fan and wire safe to hook this machine to a 50A circuit,,,, then a genius says,,, I am special and I will cobble a fan on this "220" circuit. The question is,,, was this fan and now its wire and connections designed for 50A? Was there additional fuse installed for this or other "110" recepts or equipment?
Did the mechanic introduce one, maybe even several code violations or negate safety equipment or even set up booby traps from a modification he made that work absolutely fine without realizing it?
This is an absolute foreign concept to a lot of people. I know people absolutely believe cause something is safe because it works,,, or will go down the road. I know a farm mechanic believes ths in regards to this very issue and cant tell him.

 

[sberry]

Take a hot hi pressure washer for example. Mine is a 240 model. The burner motor and transformer use 1/2 the current they do on a 120 model but all the wires in the machine are a size larger to allow it to be used on a 30A circuit. The only additional protection after the circuit breaker is after the leads and the thermal on the blower motor.

 

[justbarriault]

I just wired up 8 220v outlets in my new shop build an I used 6/3 wire and just ran the neutral into each circuit to cover my ****. I don't know how much wire you need, but if it cost me an extra $100 for the entire building to me that's cheap insurance...

 

[Norcal]

I just wired up 8 220v outlets in my new shop build an I used 6/3 wire and just ran the neutral into each circuit to cover my ****. I don't know how much wire you need, but if it cost me an extra $100 for the entire building to me that's cheap insurance...

You squandered your money, you can't simply grab a hot leg & a neutral for 120V, lot more to it if you want a code compliant install.

 

[justbarriault]

You squandered your money, you can't simply grab a hot leg & a neutral for 120V, lot more to it if you want a code compliant install.

I will admit that I'm a complete idiot when it comes to electrical, but if I ever need a 4 prong 220v plug for anything, wouldn't I need 2 hots, a neutral, and a ground? and wouldn't I then need to just connect my neutral in my box? When I don't know, I'll gladly pay an extra $100 on an expensive building than not and wish I did...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I just wired up 8 220v outlets in my new shop build an I used 6/3 wire and just ran the neutral into each circuit to cover my ****. I don't know how much wire you need, but if it cost me an extra $100 for the entire building to me that's cheap insurance...

And just what are u going to use the neutral for?

 

[justbarriault]

And just what are u going to the neutral for?

Read my last post. I don't know LOL

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I will admit that I'm a complete idiot when it comes to electrical, but if I ever need a 4 prong 220v plug for anything, wouldn't I need 2 hots, a neutral, and a ground? and wouldn't I then need to just connect my neutral in my box? When I don't know, I'll gladly pay an extra $100 on an expensive building than not and wish I did...

The plug would be 120v/240v NOT just 240v(220v BTW hasnt been used for decades) and the ONLY appliances or equipment that needs 4-wire is a range or dryer.

And most people hire someone or at least do research so they dont waste money when they dont know something. U did it backwards and wsted money in the process.

I dare u to post a piece of equipment that needs 4-wire.

 

[justbarriault]

The plug would be 120v/240v NOT just 240v and the ONLY appliances or equipment that needs 4-wire is a range or dryer.

And most people hire someone or at least do research so they dont waste money when they dont know something. U did it backwards and wsted money in the process.

I dare u to post a piece of equipment that needs 4-wire.

Well considering I didn't have to hire anyone, I didn't waste too much money...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Well considering I didn't have to hire anyone, I didn't waste too much money...

U couldve hired google for free and saved $100.

 

[justbarriault]

U couldve hired google for free and saved $100.

Google says that some kitchen stoves and dryers require 4 prong plugs. I have and $80,000 building with an 80% chance that I wasted no more than $100. I'll sleep fine tonight, thanks

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Google says that some kitchen stoves and dryers require 4 prong plugs. I have and $80,000 building with an 80% chance that I wasted no more than $100. I'll sleep fine tonight, thanks

Actually all new dryer and stove plugs require 4-wire outlets. Has NOTHING to do with some brands or models. Any dryer or range can be made 3-wire or 4-wire.

96 NEC code cycle requires all new outlets for dryers and stoves to be 4-wire. Existing are grandfathered in.

And those are appliances. I asked for an equipment example.

 

[justbarriault]

Actually all new dryer and stove plugs require 4-wire outlets. Has NOTHING to do with some brands or models. Any dryer or range can be made 3-wire or 4-wire.

96 NEC code cycle requires all new outlets for dryers and stoves to be 4-wire. Existing are grandfathered in.

And those are appliances. I asked for an equipment example.

How about an oven for my new powder coating kit? I'm sticking to my original point that I can't predict 10 years from now. For a substantial cost, I'd skip it...

 

[sberry]

Yes, not a big deal.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

How about an oven for my new powder coating kit? I'm sticking to my original point that I can't predict 10 years from now. For a substantial cost, I'd skip it...

An oven doesnt need a neutral.

 

[toyotadriver]

My shop has 4 wires running to both the 240 outlets. I don't use the neutral but it's there. Probably added less than $25 to the cost. Doesn't hurt anything.

 

[Zeke]

An oven doesnt need a neutral.

Seems like you contradicted yourself. Ovens do require a 4-wire circuit nowadays. At least that's what the pigtail that comes with it indicates. I know you can wire it 3-wire style, but new ovens should be treated as such.

Agree?