Neutrals won’t reach in new panel. Options?

[impactims]

Old panel = Neutrals at the bottom

New panel = Neutrals at the sides

They won’t reach.

So, a bunch of wire nuts? Run new wire throughout the building?

How about an insulated bus bar? Land the preexisting neutrals to the bus bar, then run new wire from the bus bar and land it to where it needs to go. We are talking about 12 total. So 12 wires total going to the insulated bus bar, then 12 more going to the neutral bar. Sounds like a good alternative to wire nuts.

Hots all reach.

Some grounds will reach, others won’t.

 

[PopcornSutton]

I have seen where wires were extended within the panel using wire nuts. If there is room to do it neatly, I would do it, using the same size and color wire.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

Is this a main panel or sub panel?

BTW! Splicing wires in a panel would be the "last resort" solution.

 

[Dagny]

Why

 

[Bert_]

Splice them with wire nuts. Very common when you swap a panel.

 

[rmanrman]

Electrician for over 25 years and I always spliced extension leads to reach the bus bar or breaker. Never failed inspection
BUT you can not splice a cable that is going through the panel. The panel is not a splice box

 

[impactims]

Is this a main panel or sub panel?

BTW! Splicing wires in a panel would be the "last resort" solution.

Main

 

[reader2580]

I have spliced wires in my main load center. It was inspected and passed just fine. Yes, the inspector did remove the cover to check things inside. I also have a junction box above my load center because some wires no longer reached the load center due to some changes. The inspector had no issues with the junction box since it is accessible.

 

[justsam]

Use Wago inline.

221-2401 Lever-Nuts Inline 2 Wire Splicing Connectors (10-Pack)

 

[alien]

Wago makes an inline connector. I find them a cleaner install and can be staggered for a nicer installation.

 

[mm08822]

Use insulated **** splices with a good crimper for 12's & 14's.

Try and locate cbs for larger loads to eliminate splicing.....use either top most or bottom most positions as needed.

Any option to move neutral or ground bars to minimize the number of splices?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Old panel = Neutrals at the bottom

New panel = Neutrals at the sides

They won’t reach.

So, a bunch of wire nuts? Run new wire throughout the building?

typically that is how its done

How about an insulated bus bar? Land the preexisting neutrals to the bus bar, then run new wire from the bus bar and land it to where it needs to go. We are talking about 12 total. So 12 wires total going to the insulated bus bar, then 12 more going to the neutral bar. Sounds like a good alternative to wire nuts.

Hots all reach.

Some grounds will reach, others won’t.

good luck finding an insulated neutral bar listed for use in that panel. also, it wouldnt make sense to run 12 wires from the bar to factory neutral bar. thats the same thing as just doing splices yet more work....

if grounds wont reach, add a bar

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Is this a main panel or sub panel?

BTW! Splicing wires in a panel would be the "last resort" solution.

why? done all the time

 

[Jim greengo]

Is this a main panel or sub panel?

BTW! Splicing wires in a panel would be the "last resort" solution.

Why's that?

 

[ArcReactorKC]

I'll second the wago inline levernuts, it will give you a very clean and easy install that is very reliable.

We use these things in critical power environments everyday so if anybody is worried about reliability we can attest that they are just as solid as an old school wirenut but easier and cleaner install.

https://www.amazon.com/221-2401-WAGO-Lever-Nuts%C2%AE-2-Conductor-Transparent/dp/B0BKR2SR7H?tag=atomicindus08-20

Edit: We also would never ever use a wirenut in our switchgear, historically if a splice had to happen we put in din rail and a wago terminal, now we use the levernuts depending on situation.

 

[manwithtools]

How about an insulated bus bar? Land the preexisting neutrals to the bus bar, then run new wire from the bus bar and land it to where it needs to go. We are talking about 12 total. So 12 wires total going to the insulated bus bar, then 12 more going to the neutral bar. Sounds like a good alternative to wire nuts.

You could do this if there is room. I would not extend each wire, I'd land the 12 circuits on the new busbar and then run one larger conductor from the new bus bar to the factory one on the side. Just be sure it's large enough for the loads.

If they are all #12 or #14, I would likely use the in-line Wago's as they will take less space and be way faster.

 

[impactims]

Ok, I’ll look into the wago inlines for the neutrals.

These are all 12,14 gauge.

But a bus bar for the grounds that won’t reach.

 

[impactims]

So for heavier gauge, this is the way to go, right?

The neutral for a 100 amp breaker that feeds a sub panel won’t reach. Looks like 2 gauge.

 

[mike93lx]

So for heavier gauge, this is the way to go, right?

The neutral for a 100 amp breaker that feeds a sub panel won’t reach. Looks like 2 gauge.

Yes, that works

 

[impactims]

So, double checking. Best way…

Ground bus bar for grounds that don’t reach. There will be 12 wires. Some 12 and some 14 gauge. Going from this bus bar to where they need to go, will be fewer larger diameter wires. A few 10 gauge. Or perhaps a larger singular wire?

Wago inlines for each 12 and 14 gauge neutral. The Polaris unit for the 100 amp neutral.

 

[mm08822]

These will be easier on the wallet than polaris.

At big orange.....

Wrap with 1 layer rubber tape and then vinyl or shrink tube.

 

[Pompey]

I believe NEC allows soldering if there is mechanical support, so I would twist the short wire and an extension wire together, solder it and put on two layers of heatshrink.

 

[dscheidt]

I believe NEC allows soldering if there is mechanical support, so I would twist the short wire and an extension wire together, solder it and put on two layers of heatshrink.

it requires that they be made "mechanically and electrically secure" before soldering. and requires the same wrapping the split bolt would after. Twisting the wires isn't enough, you need either a connector, or do something like tie a western union splice. And if you're going to do that, just using a suitable solderless connector will be faster and easier.

 

[BreeStephany]

For 14ga,12ga and 10ga use Wago 221 inline leverlock splices. For anything larger, use polaris splices.

I've been averaging 1~2 panel swaps a day, 3~7 days a week for the last ~2 months. The Wago leverlock splices really make a difference in cleanly making up a new panel when conductors are too short because you can still stack/bundle your neutrals cleanly and they save a LOT of space in the panel.
.
Likely the majority of the branch circuits with a neutral are 14~10ga, so this helps significantly in making the job MUCH cleaner.

For 8ga and larger conductors, polaris splices, especially inline splices if available, will be your best option!

Just my two cents!

 

[sparky 1971]

For 14ga,12ga and 10ga use Wago 221 inline leverlock splices. For anything larger, use polaris splices.

I've been averaging 1~2 panel swaps a day, 3~7 days a week for the last ~2 months. The Wago leverlock splices really make a difference in cleanly making up a new panel when conductors are too short because you can still stack/bundle your neutrals cleanly and they save a LOT of space in the panel.
.
Likely the majority of the branch circuits with a neutral are 14~10ga, so this helps significantly in making the job MUCH cleaner.

For 8ga and larger conductors, polaris splices, especially inline splices if available, will be your best option!

Just my two cents!

What in the Wide World of Sports is going on out there for one person to do that many panel swaps? I don't do that many in five years. Of course, that's my second to least favorite job and usually tell people I'm not interested.

When I do a panel change, everything that is short gets splice with a plain 'ol boring wire nut, usually an orange twister. For the grounds, I'll put about five conductors under a larger nut and get it over with.

 

[mike93lx]

I've been averaging 1~2 panel swaps a day, 3~7 days a week for the last ~2 months.

In montana? Did you do all of them twice?

 

[BreeStephany]

In montana? Did you do all of them twice?

What in the Wide World of Sports is going on out there for one person to do that many panel swaps? I don't do that many in five years. Of course, that's my second to least favorite job and usually tell people I'm not interested.

About that...

The last 4 months have been interesting. I got a new job, moved to the PNW, and in a 4 month span went from having a masters license in Montana to being licensed in Montana, Idaho, Washington, Oregon and am working on licensure in Wyoming, Ohio and Kentucky.

Let's just say that Portland and surrounding areas are FULL of old Zinsco, FPE and TONS of split-bus panels and a lot of people need new services and/or panels, so my new company is having me do panel and service upgrades 5~6 days a week, EVERY week.

 

[sparky 1971]

About that...

The last 4 months have been interesting. I got a new job, moved to the PNW, and in a 4 month span went from having a masters license in Montana to being licensed in Montana, Idaho, Washington, Oregon and am working on licensure in Wyoming, Ohio and Kentucky.

Let's just say that Portland and surrounding areas are FULL of old Zinsco, FPE and TONS of split-bus panels and a lot of people need new services and/or panels, so my new company is having me do panel and service upgrades 5~6 days a week, EVERY week.

Yuck. I feel for you....

 

[whateg01]

About that...

The last 4 months have been interesting. I got a new job, moved to the PNW, and in a 4 month span went from having a masters license in Montana to being licensed in Montana, Idaho, Washington, Oregon and am working on licensure in Wyoming, Ohio and Kentucky.

Let's just say that Portland and surrounding areas are FULL of old Zinsco, FPE and TONS of split-bus panels and a lot of people need new services and/or panels, so my new company is having me do panel and service upgrades 5~6 days a week, EVERY week.

Based on that, I'm guessing you got a bump in pay!

 

[BrandonV]

FULL of old Zinsco

I'll see myself out...

 

[fitter30]

Solder and heat shrink tubing

 

[impactims]

About that...

The last 4 months have been interesting. I got a new job, moved to the PNW, and in a 4 month span went from having a masters license in Montana to being licensed in Montana, Idaho, Washington, Oregon and am working on licensure in Wyoming, Ohio and Kentucky.

Let's just say that Portland and surrounding areas are FULL of old Zinsco, FPE and TONS of split-bus panels and a lot of people need new services and/or panels, so my new company is having me do panel and service upgrades 5~6 days a week, EVERY week.

Hmm, I'm in Portland and am replacing a Zinsco with a Homeline Square D.

Feel free to come and lend a hand!

 

[theoldwizard1]

Related ... Can you "legally" splice multiple neutrals (14 AWG) to one one larger (10 AWG) wire ?

 

[RickP]

Sure -- as long as you only use a 15 amp breaker!
(edit: I'm assuming you mean for one individual circuit, with the splice inside a junction box rather than the main panel)

During our initial house construction, I ran a 10 gauge cable underground to my front yard. Not knowing what I'd eventually use it for, I chose the biggest cable I might need. Now it's attached to several 14 gauge cables going to different locations. There's only a few lights on the circuit, so I don't worry about voltage drop. But that's one reason I'd use a larger cable on a 15 amp circuit.

 

[RickP]

Related ... Can you "legally" splice multiple neutrals (14 AWG) to one one larger (10 AWG) wire ?

But now that I go back and re-read your question -- are you asking about splicing neutrals from multiple circuits inside the main panel? (I didn't even dream that's what you were asking about...)

IMO, no. Absolutely not. But I'm not a professional (far from it), so I'd welcome seeing what a pro has to say about the code.

 

[Bert_]

About that...

The last 4 months have been interesting. I got a new job, moved to the PNW, and in a 4 month span went from having a masters license in Montana to being licensed in Montana, Idaho, Washington, Oregon and am working on licensure in Wyoming, Ohio and Kentucky.

Let's just say that Portland and surrounding areas are FULL of old Zinsco, FPE and TONS of split-bus panels and a lot of people need new services and/or panels, so my new company is having me do panel and service upgrades 5~6 days a week, EVERY week.

We have plenty of old panels here but most don't want to spend money and "it's been working fine for years". It only gets done when they are forced to.

 

[JohnKal]

Related ... Can you "legally" splice multiple neutrals (14 AWG) to one one larger (10 AWG) wire ?

I believe the breakers associated with those neutrals would have to be tied together. Not a professional so take it for what it’s worth.

 

[BreeStephany]

We have plenty of old panels here but most don't want to spend money and "it's been working fine for years". It only gets done when they are forced to.

We are doing solar installs, so they have to upgrade / upsize their service to allow for increased system ampacity and fix any significant issues present between their meter and main panel.

 

[BrandonV]

Related ... Can you "legally" splice multiple neutrals (14 AWG) to one one larger (10 AWG) wire ?

The NEC prohibits this these days under 200.4(A).

Neutral conductors shall not be used for more than one branch circuit, for more than one multiwire branch circuit, or for more than one set of ungrounded feeder conductors unless specifically permitted elsewhere in this Code.

 

[ArcReactorKC]

The NEC prohibits this these days under 200.4(A).

Neutral conductors shall not be used for more than one branch circuit, for more than one multiwire branch circuit, or for more than one set of ungrounded feeder conductors unless specifically permitted elsewhere in this Code.

Yea the good ol'days of a full boat ABC and a shared neutral are over. Well in this case I guess a full boat is just AB and a shared neutral.