Neverseize ?

[s_morrison57]

Is nickel based neverseize the best all around compound or is the copper based good enough for most applications?

 

[cheap bastard]

The copper stuff has worked well for me for 30 years now. I use nickel only where very high temps will be seen, like rotary engine exhaust studs. It's all cheap enough to use the best, but copper is available at all the parts stores around here.

 

[Delray]

I have always had good luck with Permatex 80208 which I think is a copper, aluminum, graphite mix.

It claims to work on temps up to 1600 degrees. The nickle compounds would be better for temps above that.

You may need a different specific compound for electrical sensors.

 

[Elroy]

Elroy would venture to say to kind of depends how critical the application is as these lubricants were developed for specific reasons.

What ever you do don't use it on spark plugs. That is unless you have a Porsche. In that case, lather in on heavy paying special attention to thoroughly coating the electrode.

Wouldn't want to upset the heat range you know.

 

[mrholeshot]

I use the Nickel on everything. I even use it on the backing of brake pads for anti-squeal. It's a small price to pay for a job well done and if it's right the next time you take something apart you can appreciate the first time you used it. Any time I pull the plugs from a car with Aluminum heads and it has anti-sieze on the threads I say a thank you to the guy who did it before me.

 

[tatra]

elroy, i have always used neversieze on sparkplugs with no problems...........why do you say not to?............

 

[Elroy]

elroy, i have always used neversieze on sparkplugs with no problems......

you and me both.

Elroy has also been known to use Armor All® on his weather strip too.

That is unless it's a Corvette. They need special treatment ya know

 

[srmofo]

Any time I pull the plugs from a car with Aluminum heads and it has anti-sieze on the threads I say a thank you to the guy who did it before me.

You're welcome. now if I could only get someone to return the favor

 

[Wakefield]

"Nickel" is better than the general purpose Permatex 133A stuff in the hardware store?
I think 133 says you can use it on spark plug threads- Nickel too?
I understand you never want to slather it on thick so that it drips onto the tip or puddles around the bottom in the spark plug well.

 

[rayzor32]

elroy, i have always used neversieze on sparkplugs with no problems...........why do you say not to?............

It acts like an insulator and changes the heat range of the plug, heat is conducted from the spark plug into the metal of the cylinder head and the neverseize insulates it from doing that and it can get too hot and you can get pinging or detonation. There are numerous TSB's on this, follow mfg's instructions.

I always use a drop of motor oil on the threads. Remember don't overtighten and on aluminum heads you should let them cool before you take them out.

 

[MrMark]

It acts like an insulator and changes the heat range of the plug, heat is conducted from the spark plug into the metal of the cylinder head and the neverseize insulates it from doing that and it can get too hot and you can get pinging or detonation. There are numerous TSB's on this, follow mfg's instructions.

I always use a drop of motor oil on the threads. Remember don't overtighten and on aluminum heads you should let them cool before you take them out.

Not only that, it's unnecessary on many modern plugs. The torque spec is dry not oiled too. Many manufacturers, Bosch, for example, put a coating on the threads at the factory and specifically state not to use any additional anti-seize. If you are taking the plug out and putting it back for some reason, different story but the initial install requires no anti-seize for many plug mfgs. Check first.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/sprkplg2.htm

I have never heard the nickle is "better" than the copper. Different applications. As far as I know, the copper is more expensive and harder to find. I had to resort to Wurth Copper based anti-sieze.

 

[Elroy]

It acts like an insulator and changes the heat range of the plug, heat is conducted from the spark plug into the metal of the cylinder head and the neverseize insulates it from doing that and it can get too hot and you can get pinging or detonation. There are numerous TSB's on this, follow mfg's instructions.

Tell that to this guy:

Maybe the genius who figured out that never-seize could bump the heat range never realized the heat path in through the seat. The technical service bulletins are also written by the manufacturers who assume you're screwing OEM plugs back into the head.

It comes down to having a little common sense about it. Just slap it on there good and thick.

paying special attention to thoroughly coating the electrode.

Elroy's statement above was made in jest. In my humble opinion, you'll play hell bumping the heat range enough to cause detonation by using a little never-seize. Sure slop it in there real good and you might have some issues. Ignore it and you'll have some issues too as post above.

If it's alright with you, I'll use it

 

[SpiderGearsMan]

never use it

 

[vssjim]

Tell that to this guy:



Maybe the genius who figured out that never-seize could bump the heat range never realized the heat path in through the seat. The technical service bulletins are also written by the manufacturers who assume you're screwing OEM plugs back into the head.

It comes down to having a little common sense about it. Just slap it on there good and thick.



Elroy's statement above was made in jest. In my humble opinion, you'll play hell bumping the heat range enough to cause detonation by using a little never-seize. Sure slop it in there real good and you might have some issues. Ignore it and you'll have some issues too as post above.

If it's alright with you, I'll use it

I use alot of anti seeze on all kinds of stuff but the above two piece spark plug that ford had autolite make is the dumbest thing I have seen and I don't know if you can put on enough anti seeze to fix this F-up.

 

[RAYJAY]

Elroy would venture to say to kind of depends how critical the application is as these lubricants were developed for specific reasons.

What ever you do don't use it on spark plugs. That is unless you have a Porsche. In that case, lather in on heavy paying special attention to thoroughly coating the electrode.

Wouldn't want to upset the heat range you know.

Elroy there are many makes and model's that need never-seize on the plug threads, been using it for years and never a problem seen a few heads where it was not used and boy did i make some money on them

guys check you service manuals about it ............

 

[toolfreak]

I use it quite a bit. Elroy, the plugs you posted a pic of are out of a 3 valve mod motor. They are notorious for breaking like that and Ford has a tsb telling you to put antiseize on the plug all the way down to the ground strap. Yes I did see that the ground strap is melted.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Not only that, it's unnecessary on many modern plugs. The torque spec is dry not oiled too. Many manufacturers, Bosch, for example, put a coating on the threads at the factory and specifically state not to use any additional anti-seize. If you are taking the plug out and putting it back for some reason, different story but the initial install requires no anti-seize for many plug mfgs. Check first.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/sprkplg2.htm

I have never heard the nickle is "better" than the copper. Different applications. As far as I know, the copper is more expensive and harder to find. I had to resort to Wurth Copper based anti-sieze.

I think we went thru this same thing, about a year or so ago, funny how topics come around every so often.

The factory manuals for both of my vehicles call for anti-seize on the thread and specify the torque of the plugs based on this.

Charles

 

[jeffk14]

I use it quite a bit. Elroy, the plugs you posted a pic of are out of a 3 valve mod motor. They are notorious for breaking like that and Ford has a tsb telling you to put antiseize on the plug all the way down to the ground strap. Yes I did see that the ground strap is melted.

Those are my plugs in Elroy's post. The straps are not melted. They are eroded from normal wear and the ******** the bottom plug is broken off on one side, due to the displacement of the porcelain core by the pusher tool.

The Ford TSB specifically says to use a hi-temp anti-seize only on the smooth part, below the threads and above the strap.

 

[toolfreak]

Those are my plugs in Elroy's post. The straps are not melted. They are eroded from normal wear and the ******** the bottom plug is broken off on one side, due to the displacement of the porcelain core by the pusher tool.

The Ford TSB specifically says to use a hi-temp anti-seize only on the smooth part, below the threads and above the strap.

Looked like the bottom one was melted, my bad. I know the TSB calls for below the threads but I antiseized the threads on mine when I installed my HTO's. I prefer to do that with all the spark plugs I install in aluminum heads, just a personal preference. Never had a problem so far.

 

[Steve_P]

I believe the ni anti-seize is higher temp rated than cu; I use the ni. I always use it and can't believe it'd change heat transfer properties for spark plugs if you use it even half way sensibly.

 

[jeffk14]

Looked like the bottom one was melted, my bad. I know the TSB calls for below the threads but I antiseized the threads on mine when I installed my HTO's. I prefer to do that with all the spark plugs I install in aluminum heads, just a personal preference. Never had a problem so far.

I don't think a small dab on the threads would hurt a thing. I didn't do the threads on mine because the threaded portion came out clean as a whistle on all of the plugs. It was those damned crimped-in lower shanks that caused all the problems.

 

[nate379]

Yup. Ford has one for sure. I do it on all the aluminum heads anyhow. Just a little bit on the threads is all it needs.

There are numerous TSB's on this, follow mfg's instructions.

 

[Blwnsln]

Not only that, it's unnecessary on many modern plugs. The torque spec is dry not oiled too. Many manufacturers, Bosch, for example, put a coating on the threads at the factory and specifically state not to use any additional anti-seize. If you are taking the plug out and putting it back for some reason, different story but the initial install requires no anti-seize for many plug mfgs. Check first.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/sprkplg2.htm

I have never heard the nickle is "better" than the copper. Different applications. As far as I know, the copper is more expensive and harder to find. I had to resort to Wurth Copper based anti-sieze.

When you say resort I take it that you had an issuer with Wurth, if so please pm me and I will resolve your issues.

As far as antlered Wurth offers quite a few different flavors
A few of my favorite are

NI 2400 - nickel anti seez

Cu 800 - copper anti seez, tube,can,aerosol

Cu1100 high adhesive copper anti seez

Cu1800 alum anti seez (never seez)

We offer many other types, those are a few of my
Favorites.

 

[jetz]

When it comes to super high temps, silver grade anti-seize is the best. I got a small bottle at home. It's made by loctite.

We use a lot of pure Bostik Pure Nickel Special Never-Seez though. I've used it on CFM56-7B engines, as well as RR/Alison T-56s.

 

[2drx4]

We use a lot of pure Bostik Pure Nickel Special Never-Seez though. I've used it on CFM56-7B engines, as well as RR/Alison T-56s.

We use the same stuff at work. No complaints.

 

[MrMark]

When you say resort I take it that you had an issuer with Wurth, if so please pm me and I will resolve your issues.

As far as antlered Wurth offers quite a few different flavors
A few of my favorite are

NI 2400 - nickel anti seez

Cu 800 - copper anti seez, tube,can,aerosol

Cu1100 high adhesive copper anti seez

Cu1800 alum anti seez (never seez)

We offer many other types, those are a few of my
Favorites.

Absolutely not. My response was poorly worded.

I have nothing but praise for Wurth products.

I have the Cu 800 I believe. I bought it to use on Mercedes wheel/hub interface to keep them from sticking. Also to coat battery terminals.

Colby, please let me know if I purchased the right stuff.

 

[hofferwood]

I use it on everything

And it's good on icecream!!!
Chuck

 

[Autoguy]

I use it on spark plug most of the time.

 

[rodm1]

"Nickel" is better than the general purpose Permatex 133A stuff in the hardware store?
I think 133 says you can use it on spark plug threads- Nickel too?
I understand you never want to slather it on thick so that it drips onto the tip or puddles around the bottom in the spark plug well.

Plugs will still freeze up using Permatex 133A. Never tried Nickel will next time I pull the plugs.

 

[Blwnsln]

Absolutely not. My response was poorly worded.

I have nothing but praise for Wurth products.

I have the Cu 800 I believe. I bought it to use on Mercedes wheel/hub interface to keep them from sticking. Also to coat battery terminals.

Colby, please let me know if I purchased the right stuff.

I do some side work for an independent Mercedes shop, and I always use the CU800 to coat the hubs. I used to use the Aerosol cans untill we had to comply with VOC laws and remove them from Califonia and Massachusetts. I now use the the CU800 tube or large Can. I can tell you we are in the process of producing a CU800 VOC compliant aerosol spray again!!!

As far as the battery Terminals, CU800 will work, but Wurth also offers another great product for battery protection. Most competors will sell you almost 3 different products to clean protect and neturtlize batterys. The Wurth product will detect,clean,neturtilze and protect all in 1 can, I will have to check the availiablity of the product in Califonia, but the battery spray is a great time and money saver.

 

[Blwnsln]

Please excuse the poor spelling...I am a sales man and mechanic at heart! and its earley

 

[Blwnsln]

I use it on everything

And it's good on icecream!!!
Chuck

Im told this product is a mix of nickel and copper. We have a smiliar product called CU1800. If I remeber correctly product worked quite well. But its temp rating was no where near the Nickel based product.

I would say there all good except the orignal Neverseez, as that was an Alum based product that under high heat would turn into a powder as Alum has a tendency to break down fast. Not good for calipers!

 

[Blwnsln]

All guys you might want to stock up on Bostik products, there are big changes comming to the product, as the Massachusetts VOC laws are comming down hard.

They used to product a product for Wurth and can no londer supply it due to the new VOC laws, we had to look else where for another supplier to produce it for Wurth.

 

[cheap bastard]

Elroy, UAW members would not put ant-sieze on spark plugs because they would pe purchased pre-treated as all other chemical coatings, thread locks or anti-seizes are. If they were assembled by UAW workers, a positive buy or finger scan to assure the procedure was followed as per the standardized work instructions and job element instructions. If the manufacturer felt the coating was necessary and saw reason to self-apply, a machine would be used to supply plugs to a conveyer and an auto applicator would do the actual job. You don't think we actually pay a person to un-package , prep and hand install spark plugs, do you? No insult meant, most folks have just not seen inside the industry in the last 10 years or so.

 

[donnie]

Piss poor?

Piss this response from Elroy and take note that some of these responses have flat out tickled the hair up Elroy's ***. In particular this smart mouth comment:



Elroy suggests that nate379 tongue Elroy's bag. He is also cordially invited to seconds on both Elroy's crack and mine. You see sir, you have pissed me off.

For the the others who have read past this little ***** parade, Here is how Elroy views the issue of never seize on spark plugs:

Use it

Use it smart and tell others to use it. But use it in the correct way

For those who claim Never-Seize elevates the the heat range of the plug that is true in limited cases only. This over heating condition is primarily associated with using copper based materials in aluminum cylinder heads. In the correct conditions, the copper can set up galvanic corrosion with the aluminum and generate an oxide that will in fact act as an thermal insulator. This condition can easily be eliminated by selecting a lubricant free of copper. In the far majority of cases the never seize will actually help the plug draw heat off the tip.

As far as plug tip temperature are concerned, there are other more important parameters that enter into the picture beside the fact that one chooses to use anti-seize or not. The main factors being the design of the plug itself and particularly the heat transfer coefficient of the ceramic and length of the heat path. Also note that the far majority of the heat transfer occur through the seat of the plug, NOT the threads !!!

In addition to these basic observations you also need to look at this issue from the manufactures point of view. The first thing to consider is the fact they are screwing together new parts and could give an "Elroy's ***" about the service aspects. Their goal is to assemble the machine as quickly as possible

The additional expense, labor and potential liability associated with a proud and skilled UAW member manually applying never-seize to a million spark plugs just won't cut it. But have no mistake, the benefits of a "wetted" heat transfer surface is proven. Be that wetted with a liquid or as a metallic coating that applied to the plugs threads at the point of manufacturer that cold flows. The problem is that used components (cylinder head threads) are worn and will not perform as well as new. Thus the need to apply the correct formulation never-seize when in a service environment.

But there are reasons the manufactures recommend not using never-seize compounds. First off is the potential corrosion issues. The second issue concerns the torque. Never-seize is going to reduce friction and depending if the lubricant is applied to the threads only or all over makes for problems of recommending a torque difficult.Then there is the problem of ******* Elroy slopping it all over the insulator. That's a no-no for obvious reasons.

So as a result the manufactures take the safe way out and simply say don't use it.

Is the use of never-seize out dated ? Not even close.



You just keep right on telling yourself that as you enjoy your seconds *****.

I believe that is that best writing I have ever seen from you Elroy. Had to quote so it did not get "lost".

 

[sk farmer]

elroy is the man. if you are going to argue with elroy you better have your chit in a row.

sk farmer thinks elroy knows what he is talking about

 

[redsky49]

My (mostly uninformed) opinion, was that copper anti-seize was for iron/steel components, and that nickel was for aluminum applications. Elroy touches on this in his latest missive.

The exception to this was that spark plugs in alloy heads used copper anti-seize. Is this correct?

By the way, where is the popcorn emoticon for the Elroy/Nate head butting??

 

[X1 Mike]

The problem with anti-seize has nothing to do with changing heat ranges. The only issue you would have is if you used copper anti-seize on a vehicle that has an ion sensing system. If your vehicle is computer controlled but has no cam sensor it uses ion sensing to determine what phase the engine is on. Ion sensing sends a small voltage signal (I’m pretty sure it’s under 100 volts) into the combustion chamber to determine if a fire (combustion) has just occurred. If the combustion event just happened the resistance will be different so copper may affect the resistance of a spark plug. Spark plugs should get silver anti-seize only.

 

[mikeweb]

I typically use the copper stuff unless I run out, ill then use the nickel. Really, in the end using any type of antiseize is better then nothing.

 

[redsky49]

The problem with anti-seize has nothing to do with changing heat ranges. The only issue you would have is if you used copper anti-seize on a vehicle that has an ion sensing system. If your vehicle is computer controlled but has no cam sensor it uses ion sensing to determine what phase the engine is on. Ion sensing sends a small voltage signal (I’m pretty sure it’s under 100 volts) into the combustion chamber to determine if a fire (combustion) has just occurred. If the combustion event just happened the resistance will be different so copper may affect the resistance of a spark plug. Spark plugs should get silver anti-seize only.

Bentley BMW Service Manual calls for copper anti-seize for the E-46 3 series.

All the other service manuals that I have - Chilton and Haynes for both cars and motorcycles- don't specify the type of anti-seize. Go figure. Still confused.