New drill bit set

[RoninB4]

How do you sharpen them when they get dull?

-I guess you didn't read my first post in this thread, my comment about sharpening these drills was buried in the blather. That's ok because F-22 covered it with less words.

Short answer is you can only sharpen them like a regular twist drill, the serrations will be gone. Read my post if you want to know why.

 

[RoninB4]

Ive noticed my HSS Australian made Sutton Viper drill set is completely different to say my Chinese made HSS Bosch drills.

- You got me curious so I went on the Sutton Tool website and found this:

"The Viper point design out-performs conventional HSS drill bits by delivering up to 2X faster drilling speeds."
- This statement was made by some marketing type that doesn't understand the drilling nomenclature. The point design has nothing to do with drilling speed (RPM) but does have a lot to do with how fast the drill is fed into the material.

The 118° split point is self-centering, minimising wandering when starting and requires less pressure to be applied when drilling."
-This is a function of how the drill geometry was ground. The same results could be achieved by grinding the "split point" at the tip and have been doing this for decades when I feel like it or it's appropriate for the job. The "self-centering" feature just means the tip was ground concentric with the body of the drill, it should be regardless of who made the drill. This type of wording is what happens when sales/marketing writes what the consumer reads.

 

[AA/FC]

-Well that's a stretch to say they "invented" this. They're using a variation of what spade drills have been using for decades. Mix in the profile of the "corn cob" roughing end mills and you can see there's not really anything new, it's just been combined. The idea of creating non-continuous chips has been around for a long time.

No offense to Astro Tool intended.

I used the word "invented" because Chris from Astro said they were to original source with multiple patents for this specific design. This is why I genuinely would like to hear more about the situation. If they were indeed "the original source" then how did other manufacturers start to make and offer them for sale long before Astro?

 

[GeoBruin]

User dnschmidt discussed the issue in the posts below when Astro first started selling theirs. Please read the posts and make your own conclusions but in short, it sounds like Astro originally started making them under exclusive contract to Matco. When that contract expired, Astro was able to start making them under their own name. It sounds like Norseman started making them separately but that was potentially in violation of Astro's patents and that has been challenged by Astro.

Norseman vs. KnKut "Hyper Step" Drill Bits

https://www.jerseydiscounttoolco.com/product-page/knkut-29pc-hyper-step-drill-bit-set-pre-order https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08X95SCT7/?tag=atomicindus08-20 Both appear to be a knock-off of the Matco Hyper-Step Drill Bits but at a lower cost. The Norseman's are significantly cheaper than the...

www.garagejournal.com

Norseman vs. KnKut "Hyper Step" Drill Bits

https://www.jerseydiscounttoolco.com/product-page/knkut-29pc-hyper-step-drill-bit-set-pre-order https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08X95SCT7/?tag=atomicindus08-20 Both appear to be a knock-off of the Matco Hyper-Step Drill Bits but at a lower cost. The Norseman's are significantly cheaper than the...

www.garagejournal.com

 

[AJHD]

So the patents are interesting to look at.
The two patent numbers on Astro's website are under a Chinese name in Shanghai. They also seem to continue already existing patents.

Funny thing too, one of the patent numbers on their marketing flyer is a slight typo, missing a number.

US Patent #11007583 and #11007584

https://ppubs.uspto.gov/pubwebapp/static/pages/ppubsbasic.html

 

[Fatboy148!]

There has to be more to the story? And of course there is always TWO two sides to every story...

My Grandpa used to say...

"There is three sides to every story, yours, mine and something that is closer to the truth."

He also said, "Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see." He was blind!

 

[Fatboy148!]

RonninB4... I too enjoy reading your info on drill bits, composition of metals and technique. Thanks for taking your time to spread your expertese!

 

[RoninB4]

If they were indeed "the original source" then how did other manufacturers start to make and offer them for sale long before Astro?

-Because the concept/inspiration for this has been around for many decades in the forms of skip/stagger tooth cutters and taps. As I posted previously, replaceable spade drill inserts have also been using a similar non-continuous cutting edge since at least the 80's (photo below) when I was using them for gun drilling. For somebody to state that they are the "original source" is a bit of a stretch if similar cutting edge geometry has been in the public domain for decades.

No offense to Chris or Astro but they can claim whatever they want to with an underinformed public or younger generations that have limited knowledge of cutting tool history. To my poor memory Dapra was one of the first (if not the first) to offer the "hogging" end mills back in the early 80's that utilized the same cutting concept of multiple cutting edges in an end mill. The replaceable spade drill inserts likely go back further than that and the skip tooth cutters/taps go back even further than that. They all draw on the concept of creating smaller stress risers to "bite" deeper into material, with less force, than spreading the cutting force along a larger continuous cutting edge. It's basically the same concept for how a serrated steak knife works, which (supposedly) came from the perception of a Damascus blade having better cutting characteristics than a Western style continuous single edge. But I digress.....

 

[Lasu]

I am not sure if Wurth's are HSS or HSSCo,but sicne they are kinds goldish in color i doubt they are plain HSS.

Wurth sells both HSS, HSSCO "step" tip drill bits and they are slightly different, 60-70 different hss sizes available.

 

[WhataTool]

Ronin stop blowin' smoke up our tailpipe. What you're posting an image of and the drill bit in question is barely in the same category. And of all your machinist talk about end mills, roughers and "corn cobs" it's clearly a step drill on the end of a twist drill. Open and shut case.
Smart. And once it came out under Matco which appears to be the 1st appearance of this particular combination of features, lots of other brands have since sold it or replicated it. So for something that has been around "for a long time" obviously everyone got one board in the last two years for some reason.
Because it works, which mechanics, people actually using them like me, can tell you. Not because I saw a picture and wrote a paragraph speculating about it, because I have hours using the things which is hours less than if I had been using my normal m2 twist drill bits.

The "cutting edge" isn't unique. It's a step drill, which describes it perfectly and worlds closer than the bits used in a CNC's you keep referencing.
Find me a twist drill for cutting through thick/deep material with a step drill tip before the Matco ones existed, that's what's unique. Find that and I'll eat my words.

 

[RoninB4]

I am not sure if Wurth's are HSS or HSSCo,but sicne they are kinds goldish in color i doubt they are plain HSS.

-A "goldish" color can also mean the surface was not ground/polished after the tempering cycle of heat treating. Most polished/ground steel surfaces will begin to take on a golden color at 400° F - 450° F, the color is closely to the temperature and used as a visual indicator in the absence of a proper thermometer. Some drills are ground after tempering, some are ground before tempering. Using the color to determine whether they have added cobalt to the recipe is not a reliable method.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Ronin stop blowin' smoke up our tailpipe. What you're posting an image of and the drill bit in question is barely in the same category. And of all your machinist talk about end mills, roughers and "corn cobs" it's clearly a step drill on the end of a twist drill. Open and shut case.
Smart. And once it came out under Matco which appears to be the 1st appearance of this particular combination of features, lots of other brands have since sold it or replicated it. So for something that has been around "for a long time" obviously everyone got one board in the last two years for some reason.
Because it works, which mechanics, people actually using them like me, can tell you. Not because I saw a picture and wrote a paragraph speculating about it, because I have hours using the things which is hours less than if I had been using my normal m2 twist drill bits.

The "cutting edge" isn't unique. It's a step drill, which describes it perfectly and worlds closer than the bits used in a CNC's you keep referencing.
Find me a twist drill for cutting through thick/deep material with a step drill tip before the Matco ones existed, that's what's unique. Find that and I'll eat my words.

I've never seen a step bit on the tip of a regular bit. That's what these are.

Obviously there are many different types of cutting implements. But I have seen no evidence this product was available prior to matco/astro.

 

[RoninB4]

Ronin stop blowin' smoke up our tailpipe. What you're posting an image of and the drill bit in question is barely in the same category. And of all your machinist talk about end mills, roughers and "corn cobs" it's clearly a step drill on the end of a twist drill. Open and shut case.

-It's not the end of a "step drill". Look up replaceable spade drill inserts and educate yourself. Maybe you mechanics call it a step drill but the rest of the cutting tool industry call it a spade drill insert. I don't think you even know what a step drill is.

Because it works, which mechanics, people actually using them like me, can tell you. Not because I saw a picture and wrote a paragraph speculating about it, because I have hours using the things which is hours less than if I had been using my normal m2 twist drill bits.

-So you have hours as a mechanic vs. my decades in machine shops. Sounds like you're the one blowing smoke about things you don't know much about.

I don't lecture you about spinning wrenches, don't tell me about cutting metal when you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Want the last word? Go right ahead, I won't waste my time trying to educate people like you.

 

[WhataTool]

-It's not the end of a "step drill". Look up replaceable spade drill inserts and educate yourself. Maybe you mechanics call it a step drill but the rest of the cutting tool industry call it a spade drill insert. I don't think you even know what a step drill is.

-So you have hours as a mechanic vs. my decades in machine shops. Sounds like you're the one blowing smoke about things you don't know much about.

I said mechanics (who these are mostly sold to) use them like I do. I'm not a mechanic but good to know you think you're better than mechanics as well.
I worked for an aerospace manufacturer for 20 years, then worked as a buyer for a major industrial tool retailer on their private label side, now work in fabrication part time in my retirement.

It's a step drill on the end, not a spade insert ya silly goose.
Some people just understand one subject super well, then think going forward everything in the world can be seen through that lens and lose all common sense.

If you want to continue writing lengths about a product, it would probably be a good idea to have used it rather than theorize. That goes for many of the useless posts on this forum I see though, not unique to this thread.

 

[neophyte]

I said mechanics (who these are mostly sold to) use them like I do. I'm not a mechanic but good to know you think you're better than mechanics as well.
I worked for an aerospace manufacturer for 20 years, then worked as a buyer for a major industrial tool retailer on their private label side, now work in fabrication part time in my retirement.

It's a step drill on the end, not a spade insert ya silly goose.
Some people just understand one subject super well, then think going forward everything in the world can be seen through that lens and lose all common sense.

If you want to continue writing lengths about a product, it would probably be a good idea to have used it rather than theorize. That goes for many of the useless posts on this forum I see though, not unique to this thread.

And this is the reason certain manufacturers may be ignoring the patents.
While using a step drill design on the end of a drill bit may increase performance as far as cutting ability, and while the purpose of those steps yo increase cutting performance may be seen as “unique and innovative”, the use of actual step drills for more easily centering and enlarging holes is a standard use for step drills and the step drill design.
A manufacturer can easily claim the stepped tip design is simply to allow bits to easily enlarge preexisting holes, while also being able to start holes as well, and that the design already existed in the form of the traditional step drill, and therefore should not be patentable.

 

[Benito]

And this is the reason certain manufacturers may be ignoring the patents.
While using a step drill design on the end of a drill bit may increase performance as far as cutting ability, and while the purpose of those steps yo increase cutting performance may be seen as “unique and innovative”, the use of actual step drills for more easily centering and enlarging holes is a standard use for step drills and the step drill design.
A manufacturer can easily claim the stepped tip design is simply to allow bits to easily enlarge preexisting holes, while also being able to start holes as well, and that the design already existed in the form of the traditional step drill, and therefore should not be patentable.

Agreed, and yet there's a design and utility patent on them nonetheless since it seems no one put those things together before. Milwaukee changing the numbers of cells in their lithium battery pack to 5 to make it 18V and securing a patent for that seems even less defendable and yet here we all are

 

[AA/FC]

I slightly remember the previous thread that GeoBruin linked to above. Apparently, Astro "invented" these bits and then originally allowed Matco Tools to sell them.....

Well, that's great but who ACTUALLY made them? Matco doesn't make ANY hand tools in their own factories and as far as I know, Astro doesn't make any of their own tools, either. We're talking about two tool companies that own a combined total of ZERO tool manufacturing facilities. 100% of their tool production is subbed out to other manufacturers who DO own factories.

Norseman makes their own drill bits in their own Norseman drill bit factory located in St. Paul, Minnesota. (Viking Tool)

 

[Shoreline_]

A master tool and die maker taught me at a young age how to drill holes correctly in steel. It's all about correct pressure and RPM. Or they drill without cutting lube. I've never broken a drill. Too many people drill a 1/2" hss bit at maximum drill rpm. Say au revoir to that cutting edge. Or they drill too big a pilot hole.

 

[F-22]

So you have hours as a mechanic vs. my decades in machine shops.

Don't want to be dragged into this showdown, but just to point out such comments on online forums come across as very pretentious.

Milwaukee changing the numbers of cells in their lithium battery pack to 5 to make it 18V and securing a patent for that

That's hilarious. I think Milwaukee is very notorious for trademarking and patenting every idea they come up with. Seems the marketing works, but it reminds me of toilet paper ads - 4x more absorbing, 8x stronger, 12x longer lasting...

 

[Sumboodie]

I have 2 sets somewhere. Haven't used them though.
Asstro had a sale on here a while back.