New floor didn't go well

[c6fan]

I'm putting in a new shop and the floor did not turn out so well. There should have been 2 trucks for the pour. The second truck did not show so the first truck had to go back and get the 2nd load. Then the cement company may have shorted one of the loads because it ended up requiring a 3rd truck and according to my GC cost him an additional $500. The concrete guys claimed also that the last load did not have the correct amount of hardener and would not set up. They could not use the machine on this area because it would just gouge the wet concrete. The end result was a pretty choppy floor.

I wasn't there during the whole thing but I did come for lunch and the 1st truck was just leaving and there wasn't another one there. When I got home at 5:30 they were still working on it and I could see where they had tried to use the machine on it and it was gouged up pretty bad but was still wet enough to be corrected (for the most part). They worked on it until it got too dark to see. The contract I have with the GC is very loosely written and does not specify how smooth the surface was suppose to be but he has verbally acknowledged that the floor is not right.

His first attempt at fixing the lumpy floor was using what he called "Featherlite" (sp??) which should have leveled the low spots and troweled into a feather edge. This failed badly. See pics.

It was my opinion that the floor needed to be ground but the GC didn't want to do it saying there would be grind marks. I'm going to do epoxy when it's done anyway so I don't know if the coating will hide imperfections or accent them. I was hoping some of the experts could look at the pics and share some opinions.


These are just a few pics of the floor in general and of the 2 places where the Featherlite was used. This does not show the slow waves because they are almost impossible to photograph and really that part didn't bother me too much.

Unfeathered edge of Featherlite spot #1

Featherlite spot #1

This was in the wet area so most of the floor does not have these dimples

Featherlite spot #2

Unfeathered edge of Featherlite

Unfeathered edge of Featerlite edge #2

Didn't need a pencil to show the waves in this pic

The last 3 are just peaks and valleys in the floor

 

[Ruger_556]

Grind it man...

 

[c6fan]

Grind it man...

I forgot to ask in the first post if anyone could give an estimate per foot of grinding cost.

 

[jhelrey]

Rip it out! Make them do it on their dime. I would imagine the concrete company would be semi responsible.

 

[c6fan]

I don't think I'll have much of a chance at attempting that. The GC says the concrete guys are blaming the cement company but they will not do anything without drilling a core and having it tested. If the test comes back good they will charge $1200 for doing the test. In other words everyone wants to play the blame game. Bottom line is that the contract I have with the GC is very loosely written and probably wouldn't hold up. As long as he is working with me I'm going to explore all other options before spending several thousand on a tear out.

 

[TheGunCollector]

Rent a grinder, grind it, and epoxy it. I've done it in one of my retail stores, about 2500sq/ft, and was surprised at how smooth it was. Good luck.

 

[JimVonBaden]

IMHO you would be best off going with Porcelain tile. No grinding needed and all the ugly would be naturally covered.

 

[c6fan]

IMHO you would be best off going with Porcelain tile. No grinding needed and all the ugly would be naturally covered.

I did think about tile after realizing my dilemma. And I have set tile before but keeping it level may take some skills. My only concerns are being able to roll things across the grout lines and chipping due to dropped objects. Well, that and I had my mind set on epoxy.

 

[marty_p]

Another vote here with Jim's. That option would yield a whole lot less mess, hassle, and time - and may possibly be subsidized (or better yet, paid in full) by the GC and/or concrete company...

 

[mrobins297aaa]

I would think if you don't grind it the epoxy will just make the imperfections show up more.............it surely won't hide them

 

[c6fan]

I would think if you don't grind it the epoxy will just make the imperfections show up more.............it surely won't hide them

Part of that statement was also referring to marks left behind by the grinder, if any. The GC in convinced that a grinder will leave marks that will be no better than what it already is, or least render it not worth the cost. I'm not so sure I feel the same way and that is part of what I'm hoping to learn.

 

[retfr8flyr]

I would find a good tile that you like and can afford and get the the GC. Tell him you will buy the tile if he will pay to have it installed. This will give you a level floor and they can stop playing the blame game. I think that would be your best option. Don't fear the tile, there are many guys here with tile floors and they are fairly bullet proof, if you get a good tile.

 

[ezover]

i sure dont know the name of the stuff, but several years back a company came in and did the floors in the 100k sq ft warehouse i work at with some self leveling expoxy(?) that worked really well. i'll ask and see if anyone rembers the name of the stuff that was used or what company that did the work.

 

[spotco2]

I'd vote for having the GC make the concrete guys rip it out and repour.

Is there a vapor barrier under it? Rebar? Mesh? Control cuts? How big is it?

 

[ConCretin]

c6fan, there is no way I'd accept that floor. All of the excuses about 'not enough trucks or hardener' (whatever the hell that means) are BS. The reason you have a GC is that you don't have to deal with all the finger pointing. He is responsible for sorting all that out. He hired an incompetent finisher and must deal with results.

No amount of repair work is going to give you the floor you deserve. Put your foot down and tell him your not paying for that floor...period.

 

[TheGunCollector]

c6fan, there is no way I'd accept that floor. All of the excuses about 'not enough trucks or hardener' (whatever the hell that means) are BS. The reason you have a GC is that you don't have to deal with all the finger pointing. He is responsible for sorting all that out. He hired an incompetent finisher and must deal with results.

No amount of repair work is going to give you the floor you deserve. Put your foot down and tell him your not paying for that floor...period.

The problem with that is what the heck did the OP sign in regards to the contract, and dismissing that, does he have the MONEY and time/stress to devote to pursuing a legal battle?

 

[ConCretin]

The problem with that is what the heck did the OP sign in regards to the contract, and dismissing that, does he have the MONEY and time/stress to devote to pursuing a legal battle?

You raise a good point but damn that floor looks bad. I would think any form of contract even a verbal one would offer the OP protection against that sort of workmanship. We're not talking about whether he's entitled to a Ff 100, superflat floor - that slab is deficient by any industry standard.

There are obviously a lot of factors, the most relavant of which is how much money has already been paid to the GC. He who holds the money ususally has the upper hand. The OP can push back and possibly get a resolution without having to sue.

The GC pays for removal, the finisher puts the new floor down and the supplier provides the concrete. I've seen it done before.

Granted it can be stressful and expensive to fight this kind of battle but if had to look at that floor everyday, I'd go nuts.

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

Grind it well. If using our products, I would prime with HD139, basecoat SD, flakes to hide any visuals, topcoat with HD356VOC. Any floor issue will telegraph through so take your time prepping those bad areas.

 

[Scud67]

Do not accept that floor as up to par. That is bad workmanship that the contractor should be screaming at his concrete guys to fix. No excuses for trucks or mix should be accepted. Make them do it all over again. Do not let this contractor get away with this type of work.... if it happened on a part of the job as simple as a concrete slab, what is the rest of his work going to be like? Especially on really difficult parts.... concrete is EASY!

 

[dipan]

If you decide to have a core tested, why would you have the guys who screwed it up do the test. Makes sense to have an independent third party do the test.

Sorry the floor ended up so poor, but this may be a good time for you to decide to go porcelain tile like others have said. If you buy the tile there are so many that are $1 or less per square foot and even some larger than 1' square tiles out there that are $1 a piece. I just saw some at the local HD. If you can get the GC to have one of his guys take care of the install on his dime I think that would be a decent compromise. Yes, you deserve the floor you thought you were going to get, but now that it's poured is it really worth the extra effort and aggravation to have them try to grind or redo? If you do go the tile floor route, how confident are you that the slab is structurally sound? It can still be strong even if it does not look pretty right? LLWillysfan?

 

[HotrodHR]

How about some pics showing the overall slab... And as was asked before, how was the area prepped? Gravel, vapor barrier, rebar, expansion joints, etc?

What's the size of this slab? I would have it redone... If you can't stomach the hassle then make them grind it. Don't forget to let it cure before epoxying or tiling it... Personally, I would skip the tiling, but if you go that route still have them grind it.

 

[c6fan]

I appreciate all comments from everyone. The GC has been very good to work with from the start and other than a couple of minor issues everything has been on time and done well. I'm just not ready to take on the stress and unknown expense of stomping my foot down and making demands. At least not as long as the GC is willing to listen and negotiate about options.

The main purpose for the post is to try to educate myself of other options (mainly for epoxy which my first choice of coverings). If there is a way to salvage the floor for epoxy that is the best way to go for now. However, discussing other options such as tile are welcome reading in case it is too bad and needs to be completely covered.

The contract is really nothing more than a breakdown of the parts of the project ie, ground work, footing and stem wall, floor, frame work, doors, roof, etc. These are broken into groups with costs. The GC started the project on his own dime and I have allowed him draws as he has completed parts. Unfortunately, the floor was paid in advance because my father got sick and so we took 10 days vacation time to go take care of him. I still owe a considerable amount before the shop is complete including the GC's overhead and profit percentage. We both signed the contract (price list) and that was it.

 

[c6fan]

There is a link in the first post for my shop build but I'll post it again here.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=237770

The floor is 24x36 and yes they sawcut the floor as well as putting in the cardboard looking strips around the perimeter. I'm not an expert on concrete but it appeared to me everything was done correctly. I don't know where a vapor barrier would go on a slab but no, I don't think they are used here in the OKC area. At least not on the floors. I have watched other homes in the neighborhood being done and I don't recall seeing anything resembling that on the ground. The footings have rebar and the floor has that fencing looking wire stuff for reinforcement.

Edit: The ground was prepped with sand for leveling purposes I believe. And I can take some more pics of the floor.

 

[RivennHewn]

We have a contractor that we use to clean up old concrete floors for use as retail space and restaurants. Most of the buildings/job are in older buildings with really ugly floors.

They come in and grind a little, apply some product and we end up with beautiful floors.

It ***** that this happened on your slab. I would ask the contractor to show you how it's within industry standards. Did you keep the tickets off the trucks? It will show you the mix of each load. If they added water, the driver is supposed to note it. I'd call BS on the mix supplier shorting you, or failing to deliver per what was ordered. The 3rd truck is a miss by the guy calculating the yardage. Then they were in a hurry to go home and tried to rush the finish of the last truck.

Google and read up on residential concrete slab industry standard. There is a lot of info online. Getting thru it to find what pertains to you takes some effort.

There are more experienced members here who can address suitability of products for your repair work.

 

[c6fan]

I don't have the tickets from the supplier. I would assume the concrete guys have them or the GC does. Someone previously mentioned having my own sample tested which is a good idea except for drilling the cores.

You could be right about the GC miscalculating but it isn't his first job and it's a pretty basic calculation for a standard 4'' floor. There is a 5'x18' section in the center that is 6" thick that will be for the lift though. But he knew that going in and I think I calculated and extra .5 yards for it. As far as the crew rushing, again under the circumstance it is possible but they were here all day until well after dark cleaning up. Something got away from them for sure but I don't know enough to know what it was.

We have a contractor that we use to clean up old concrete floors for use as retail space and restaurants. Most of the buildings/job are in older buildings with really ugly floors.

They come in and grind a little, apply some product and we end up with beautiful floors.

It ***** that this happened on your slab. I would ask the contractor to show you how it's within industry standards. Did you keep the tickets off the trucks? It will show you the mix of each load. If they added water, the driver is supposed to note it. I'd call BS on the mix supplier shorting you, or failing to deliver per what was ordered. The 3rd truck is a miss by the guy calculating the yardage. Then they were in a hurry to go home and tried to rush the finish of the last truck.

Google and read up on residential concrete slab industry standard. There is a lot of info online. Getting thru it to find what pertains to you takes some effort.

There are more experienced members here who can address suitability of products for your repair work.

 

[softailgarage]

Sit down with your contractor and come up with a solution, then keep moving forward. Stomping feet, making accusations,lawsuits, etc. are going to cost you time, money & aggravation. It sounds like you're comfortable with the contractor, you should be able to work it out at his expense He can recoup his loss with the concrete company, either monetarily or through deals on future jobs (if he wants to use them again), but let him deal with the concrete people, if you do you'll just keep getting the run around. I would tell the contractor to rent or borrow (since I'm sure he knows someone with one) a grinder and git-r-done and move on. Just my 2 cents.

 

[NZ0J]

I am a ready mix supplier. I think doing the core testing is a waste of time and money, all that is going to tell you is how strong the concrete is. Just because it looks bad doesn't mean it's not the specified strength. If I were you, I'd go down and talk to the ready mix supplier and ask them about your pour. They should have record of how much was ordered, what mix, how much water was added and so forth. Pay specific attention to if water was added by the contractor to the supposed wet load.

One thing I've found out in this business, is that when a contractor screws a job up, it's always the concrete suppliers fault. I shouldn't say always, some of the guys will admit it's their fault and not try to pass the blame, but it's pretty rare. To me, it looks like your GC hired a second rate outfit to do the floor, probably because they were cheap and he could pocket more money himself.

One last thing. Who actually told you there wasn't enough "hardener" in the mix? Whoever it was has no clue about concrete.

 

[c6fan]

Your post is very sensible. At the very least a phone call to the supplier wouldn't hurt. I agree also about the whole testing process except I didn't know if there was a way to tell if a load was too wet when poured. We use labs in our business often and they aren't always very helpful for us either. I will eventually sit down with the GC but I would like to be armed with a little more knowledge about the subject. I also agree that a good concrete crew should have been able to adjust to an off load. And finally when I said "hardener" my ignorance was showing through. I know there are additives that can be added to mud for various reasons so I always though they mixed something in a load to control the set time. What the actually said was the load would not set up properly like a normal load.

I am a ready mix supplier. I think doing the core testing is a waste of time and money, all that is going to tell you is how strong the concrete is. Just because it looks bad doesn't mean it's not the specified strength. If I were you, I'd go down and talk to the ready mix supplier and ask them about your pour. They should have record of how much was ordered, what mix, how much water was added and so forth. Pay specific attention to if water was added by the contractor to the supposed wet load.

One thing I've found out in this business, is that when a contractor screws a job up, it's always the concrete suppliers fault. I shouldn't say always, some of the guys will admit it's their fault and not try to pass the blame, but it's pretty rare. To me, it looks like your GC hired a second rate outfit to do the floor, probably because they were cheap and he could pocket more money himself.

One last thing. Who actually told you there wasn't enough "hardener" in the mix? Whoever it was has no clue about concrete.

 

[NZ0J]

Your post is very sensible. At the very least a phone call to the supplier wouldn't hurt. I agree also about the whole testing process except I didn't know if there was a way to tell if a load was too wet when poured. We use labs in our business often and they aren't always very helpful for us either. I will eventually sit down with the GC but I would like to be armed with a little more knowledge about the subject. I also agree that a good concrete crew should have been able to adjust to an off load. And finally when I said "hardener" my ignorance was showing through. I know there are additives that can be added to mud for various reasons so I always though they mixed something in a load to control the set time. What the actually said was the load would not set up properly like a normal load.

It is entirely possible the ready mix supplier messed something up. A core will be able to give you an idea of the water to cement ratio, but like I said, I would check with the supplier first. Who knows, you may find out that the contractor added a bunch of water to that load. With that, even if the supplier did send a wet load, the contractor still could have gotten it finished a heck of a lot better than what they did, it would have taken them longer, but it could have looked good.

I'm not sure what the temps were when this was poured, but if it was cooler, the first couple loads may have had calcium per contractor request, and perhaps the supplier forgot in the last load, which would make the set time take longer. I'm still leaning toward piss poor concrete crew though, it could have looked better if the load was wet. If the load got hot on them, I can see the finish looking bad because they ran out of time.

 

[ConCretin]

c6fan, I understand your reluctance to throw a grenade into the middle of your construction project by forcing the issue of the slab finish. It's easy for us us armchair quarterbacks to encourage you to play hardball but in reality, it's not all that easy to do.

At the end of the day, it's your garage. If you were planning on epoxy anyway, grinding may be an acceptable solution - one that should be acceptable to your GC and his sub. I just worry that the problems go deeper than a poor finish. Just be careful and protect yourself. Feel free to PM me if you want to talk it through with someone in the business. Enough said.

One final thought if I may; I really appreciate the comments by NZOJ. I've been doing commercial/industrial concrete for 20 years and I can count on one hand the number of times a problem was the sole responsibility of the concrete producer. They often get the blame but rarely deserve it.

Like I tell my guys; before you complain that the truck is late, make sure you haven't postponed a delivery at the last minute because you weren't ready or ordered a 1 yard load because you cut it too tight.

 

[NZ0J]

c6fan, I understand your reluctance to throw a grenade into the middle of your construction project by forcing the issue of the slab finish. It's easy for us us armchair quarterbacks to encourage you to play hardball but in reality, it's not all that easy to do.

At the end of the day, it's your garage. If you were planning on epoxy anyway, grinding may be an acceptable solution - one that should be acceptable to your GC and his sub. I just worry that the problems go deeper than a poor finish. Just be careful and protect yourself. Feel free to PM me if you want to talk it through with someone in the business. Enough said.

One final thought if I may; I really appreciate the comments by NZOJ. I've been doing commercial/industrial concrete for 20 years and I can count on one hand the number of times a problem was the sole responsibility of the concrete producer. They often get the blame but rarely deserve it.

Like I tell my guys; before you complain that the truck is late, make sure you haven't postponed a delivery at the last minute because you weren't ready or ordered a 1 yard load because you cut it too tight.

Like!


I wish all my customers thought like that!

 

[c6fan]

I'm not sure what the temps were when this was poured, but if it was cooler, the first couple loads may have had calcium per contractor request, and perhaps the supplier forgot in the last load, which would make the set time take longer. I'm still leaning toward piss poor concrete crew though, it could have looked better if the load was wet. If the load got hot on them, I can see the finish looking bad because they ran out of time.

If I remember correctly the temps were ideal for concrete that day. Probably around 60*. The more I think about it, it doesn't make sense that only the last load was "bad" The floor is messed up in the area where the second load had to have been dumped also.

c6fan, I understand your reluctance to throw a grenade into the middle of your construction project by forcing the issue of the slab finish. It's easy for us us armchair quarterbacks to encourage you to play hardball but in reality, it's not all that easy to do.

At the end of the day, it's your garage. If you were planning on epoxy anyway, grinding may be an acceptable solution - one that should be acceptable to your GC and his sub. I just worry that the problems go deeper than a poor finish. Just be careful and protect yourself. Feel free to PM me if you want to talk it through with someone in the business. Enough said.

I'm just not ready to throw the grenade YET. As long as the GC is working the problem we have the potential to work it out without making enemies. Who knows, he could still decide to tear it out himself. Doubtful but possible. I will say, as much as I want a nice floor I'm not going to be overly meticulous about the finish product. Often times the owner is the most critical person when others don't even notice a problem. Something still needs to be done and if grinding will net a pretty good job I'll probably be good with that. Again, this is what I was mainly hoping to learn from my post here.

 

[Punchwood]

There's no way on God's green earth that I'd accept that floor, and before I agreed to any grinding I'd want some major reassurance that the base was compacted properly.

If they screwed the pooch that bad on the finish, what issues lie underneath????

While I personally don't inspect concrete and soils, I work for a testing agency that does. I've been around for more pours than I can count, and we're talking massive on the size scale for a lot of them.

That said, there are very few people I would trust to do a pour and finish without my being there. There's just waaaaaaay too many hacks in that business.

My personal opinion is that you're being way too soft. You paid for the job to be done correctly, not perfect perhaps, but correct. You paid for it with money you earned.

Did you earn that money by doing slipshod work? Then why should they get away with it????

JMHO.

 

[NZ0J]

If I remember correctly the temps were ideal for concrete that day. Probably around 60*. The more I think about it, it doesn't make sense that only the last load was "bad" The floor is messed up in the area where the second load had to have been dumped also.







I'm just not ready to throw the grenade YET. As long as the GC is working the problem we have the potential to work it out without making enemies. Who knows, he could still decide to tear it out himself. Doubtful but possible. I will say, as much as I want a nice floor I'm not going to be overly meticulous about the finish product. Often times the owner is the most critical person when others don't even notice a problem. Something still needs to be done and if grinding will net a pretty good job I'll probably be good with that. Again, this is what I was mainly hoping to learn from my post here.

I completely understand not being overly meticulous, but what you got for your money was nothing short of a disaster. I honestly believe the concrete crew was in way over their head. Maybe it got late and they just got tired of dealing with it, that's no excuse though, they were paid to put a good finish on it, and that is not what you received.

 

[mygarageone]

Having been in construction for over 40 yrs , I have seen it all. But the bottom line is this , if the GC hired the Concrete guys , the GC is ultimately responsible . He has to make this right and if he has any integrity he will and hopefully to both you and his satisfaction.
He will then has to deal with the concrete contractor . Because if this were to go to a court case . I can tell you whom ever you hired to take care of the whole job is responsible period and they have to go after whom ever they hired. Been there done that. Construction law is some what different than most .
But the bottom line is go through your GC and see if he will take care of it to Your satisfaction , I do not believe a core sample will help at all. As long as there wasn't to much time between loads and you have rebar or mess , I would think grinding the floor would be your best beat.
By the way they can grind a floor to a glass finish using the right equipment , how do you think school concrete floors look so good and forever.

 

[Eriehunter]

I have seen some nasty floors, like the floor in my new house basement. I just put epoxy down over the entire thing with the flakes, really hide a bunch. If you were to have the floor ground and then ground again with a less abrasive wheel a coat or two of epoxy and some flakes I bet that would look awesome.

If you do decide on a tear out, watch damage to the foundation walls. With a target saw, skid steer and a dump truck that floor could be gone in 4 hours or less.

I vote for a grind and epoxy.

 

[c6fan]

I spoke to the GC tonight and I know for sure now that he has not paid the concrete crew yet. He also mentioned paying for the floor to be ground if I was going to pay for the coating anyway. I believe he is truly concerned about the final outcome of the project. I'm sure he wants to preserve as much of the original profit also but does accept the fact that the floor was not done properly.

The funny thing is when I came home from work today I found where the crew had come out and ground out one of the patches. They did knock it down to nearly level but it also exposed bubbles in the patch. They must have really done a crappy job on the patch too. I'm confused why they did a 2nd patch when the first one went so badly and then when they ground out the first one why didn't they go ahead and grind the second one too.

 

[thegarageguy]

Regardless you would have to grind it so the perfect finish isn't necessary if you are gonna go with a seamless flooring system. I would although recommend on an 1/8 inch slurry epoxy -polyurethane system for a work shop floor, not just a thinly painted epoxy job. An epoxy paint job will not hold up to tools dropping and jacks rolling around it without it chipping and dinging.

Good luck in your shop.

 

[c6fan]

Promised pic of the whole floor.

 

[JimVonBaden]

That isn't as bad as I expected. I would either go porcelain or have it ground down!