New Garage foundation too low - HELP!

[cgrutt]

So, the drawings were done by the GC or atleast the company he uses to create them. The courses of block that are there are about the same courses in the drawing, but apparently the slope is slightly worse in person than their drawings. So in order for it to have been level with the alley, 2-3 courses more would have been required.

In my mind, they should have said, "The drawings don't accurately reflect how severe the grade of your land is. We'll need to add 2 courses of block and extra stone which will increase the cost X amount of dollars."
I wish we had that conversation instead of listening to him say that the 12" drop would be reasonable.

Agreed. GC should have stepped up even if he hadn't prepared drawings after seeing that you would have difficulty using garage the way project was planned. Good luck with it and hope you find a good solution.

 

[johninct]

I am not exactly sure what is going on from the pictures and explanation, but , in my opinion, the garage should have been slightly higher than the street so water won't run in.

 

[GMCGarage]

So, the drawings were done by the GC or atleast the company he uses to create them. The courses of block that are there are about the same courses in the drawing, but apparently the slope is slightly worse in person than their drawings. So in order for it to have been level with the alley, 2-3 courses more would have been required.

In my mind, they should have said, "The drawings don't accurately reflect how severe the grade of your land is. We'll need to add 2 courses of block and extra stone which will increase the cost X amount of dollars."
I wish we had that conversation instead of listening to him say that the 12" drop would be reasonable.

The drawings should have elevations, or a reference from a fixed point.

 

[mbatarga]

My revised picture view increases the elevation of the building at least a foot with respect to the alley. I don't know where you are getting an 18" drop.

 

[jives]

The plans show 7 courses of block in the rear. Is that what you received?

The contract states the following:

2. Additional cost for grade slope approx.. 5’ ...$3,700.00
Foundation cost is based on a clear and fairly level site.

What does this really mean? The 5' of grading means what?

The elevation diagram points to the driveway slope rising upward toward the garage and refers to it as the "approximate slope". I don't think that the resulting driveway slope, which is steeply downward, fits as approximate.

 

[lakeroadster]

The drawings should have elevations, or a reference from a fixed point.

That's a great point.... yet residential plans rarely do.

I had the same issue on my barn... even though I showed the contractor the slab elevation I wanted before the pad site was even leveled.

An existing site elevation point on the drawings would have eliminated this confusion. Yet the county never specified "existing site" elevation data as a drawing requirement.

ANVO: Accept No Verbal Orders That's what we were always told... and why we always had to write an ECO: Engineering Change Order that was signed off by all the responsible parties.

OP: You're on a slippery slope (no pun intended). You verbally accepted the change and didn't involve the GC. You're on the hook for change order costs. In the future, your reply should be: 'I'll need to discuss this with the GC and the Jurisdictional Authorities".

Moving forward you'll have to get the drawings and permits revised and approved prior to upgrading to more courses of blocks. Adding those additional courses, the fill and additional concrete changes the foundation loading. This may also require having to add fill to the outside of the block for support.

Where are you located? The folks that are saying you should install a drain, that won't work well at all if you live in a location where temperatures drop below freezing for prolonged periods of time. Sure, you could add heat tracing... but why deal with all that when you've already said you can't get your low slung vehicles in the building?

 

[tapered-pin]

The drawings should have elevations, or a reference from a fixed point.

typically building plans reference 0'-0" as finished floor and every dimension on the architectural/structural/mechanical/electrical will be with regards to that reference point.

a SITE plan will place the slab elevation relative to the surrounding proposed or existing grades (which should all be listed in reference to height above median sea level)

 

[Engineer13]

I will chime in here... Bottom line the builder did not follow the approved plan which is resulting roughly 2ft lower than expected. The contractor should have to built the slab level on the high side and slight down grade on the low side. And this is what it should be, you own cars, not broncos, so approach angle is everything.
Drawings clearly show a down grade coming out of the garage and thats what it should be.
IMO the builder is trying to pull a fast one to get more money from you for the mistake his workers caused. slab height needs to come up bottom line.

Get revised plans stamped by city, make sure your overall height is to code, make builder fix.

 

[Muzzy]

Yeah, stop the build. No progress and certainly no payments until this is fixed. I'm not a builder, but were it mine that slab would come out.

Get the borough inspector and builder out there.
If your borough has a "planning committee" or similar try to find out if there is an experienced builder or architect on it. If so get them there too. Borough inspectors and committee members usually want to help, and may offer a good solution. It's their neighborhood too after all.

Expect to lose money, either by driving your current builder away and having to find another, in remediation, or both.

 

[Jeff590]

In my mind, they should have said, "The drawings don't accurately reflect how severe the grade of your land is. We'll need to add 2 courses of block and extra stone which will increase the cost X amount of dollars."
I wish we had that conversation instead of listening to him say that the 12" drop would be reasonable.

That is the conversation that I had with the concrete crew when they built mine and they ended up adding some block and stone at additional cost.

We used the same builder, and I'm curious if the same masonry crew did yours. Let's non name names, but take a look at my build thread and see if you recognize the 2 guys

 

[Platonic Solid]

When the crew arrived to begin digging the footers, he asked me where I wanted it and how high

This makes no sense.
"Where do you want it?" Look at the drawing.
"How high?" Look at the drawing.

If the drawings don't provide clear answers to these questions then that's the builders problem, not yours.

You have a contract, thus verbal alterations are not binding. I doesn't matter what you told the crew as they shouldn't have asked you anything to begin with.

 

[PT Doc]

Hope this works out for you. It interesting that a crew would ask the homeowner to clarify something. Why would they not call the guy who hired them and specified the work.

 

[apollo11]

What is so great about amish contractors ?
Why is this a thing?

just curious.

 

[ard]

Lets say- for arguments sake- that you verbally agreed to a 'change'.

Lets say that change was " 12 inches over 12 feet"

DID YOU GET THIS?



Also, did you pay the $12k draw for foundation completion?? Sure hope not.

 

[EnchantedForest]

no major updates yet. I emailed the general contractor Wednesday asking him to call me, He said he'd call first thing Thursday. I waited till 4PM and called and got his voicemail. Still no word from them.

I did unfortunately give them the check for the second payment. I'm already upset about the concrete issue and the lack of communication is making it worse. I'm near the point of check-cancelling mad. Does anyone think I should put a stop payment on the check until they contact me?

 

[johninct]

Stop email. Either use the phone or regular mail.

 

[Tynee]

Does anyone think I should put a stop payment on the check until they contact me?

I might, but I'd expect things to get worse instead of better when he does finally call you back.

 

[tapered-pin]

Stop email. Either use the phone or regular mail.

email is legally binding with regards to contract law in every state.



OP, I know you dont believe me yet, but IT WILL be cheaper for you to just have them install the trench drain as others have said, although, I would have them remove the apron, install the trench drain 1/2" lower than the foundation along the front, and re-pour the apron up to tie into the road.

no contractor is going to rip out that slab and replace it on their dime..

 

[EnchantedForest]

As a contractor, which I am not:
If you gave me the slightest bit of guff, if you stopped the check, if you potty mouthed me in any way, simply because you misunderstood(from my contractor point of view) the verbal change you authorized, then went on the Internet for advice on a legal matter:
I'd slap a mechanics lien on your house so fast your head would spin, immediately file suit against you and make sure that any contractor that was stupid enough to take over the job knew exactly what went down(from my contractor point of view) and charged you appropriately for being the 'stopped the check guy' and having an excuse of 'being tired and not understanding what I said yes to'.

You have not a single point to make about the work other than it being wrong TO YOU AS A LAYPERSON.

He is not in charge of your low slung car not fitting. No one on a jury will think he is.

Just a point of view no one here has taken.

You're boned, and any action from him in your favor other than him simply finishing the build in a civil and professional manner, is by HIS good graces IF it all makes code.

You've been correct in asking here before going off on a tirade and bashing the guy.
DO NOT take almost ANY of the advice here that is purely self serving.
Get an opinion from someone locally viable if this doesn't resolve itself today.
Take a week or so to do research. This isn't a 'one conversation fix' unless your contractor wants it to be.

Boy, I'm glad you're not the contractor. Slapping a lien on someone's home because they "gave me the slightest bit of guff... potty mouthed me in any way" aren't valid reasons legally or otherwise.

"and any action from him in your favor other than him simply finishing the build in a civil and professional manner, is by HIS good graces IF it all makes code. " Uhh, not at all, Especially if I'm paying an extra 5-7k$ to fix it.

I think you're missing the main point. I gave all relevant information about my property to the contractor and was given plans, drawings and a quoted price. When they showed up on site and the grade was different than what they thought, I was suggested a 'solution' by a professional masonry company that creates a virtually unusable garage. Me as a LAYPERSON, as it were, okayed the suggestion. No written change order was done. No conversation between the sub and the GC took place. The concrete work is done and I gave them a check. Now I can't get the contractor to call me back, which is why i'm near considering cancelling the check.

It's one thing to make a mistake and have a miscommunication. But ignoring me has me questioning their professionalism.

 

[EnchantedForest]

email is legally binding with regards to contract law in every state.


OP, I know you dont believe me yet, but IT WILL be cheaper for you to just have them install the trench drain as others have said, although, I would have them remove the apron, install the trench drain 1/2" lower than the foundation along the front, and re-pour the apron up to tie into the road.

no contractor is going to rip out that slab and replace it on their dime..

It may come down to adding a drain and working with the slope. That isn't what I want, but may have to compromise. I don't expect them to rip it out and redo the whole thing and I don't expect them to eat the entire cost. What I would like is to add additional courses of block and stone and add a new pad on top of the existing one to add height. I don't expect them to eat the cost of that either, but I would like them to show some good faith and Help me with the cost. I don't expect to have this solution done for free.

 

[Radix2]

As a contractor, which I am not:
If you gave me the slightest bit of guff, if you stopped the check, if you potty mouthed me in any way, simply because you misunderstood(from my contractor point of view) the verbal change you authorized, then went on the Internet for advice on a legal matter:
I'd slap a mechanics lien on your house so fast your head would spin, immediately file suit against you and make sure that any contractor that was stupid enough to take over the job knew exactly what went down(from my contractor point of view) and charged you appropriately for being the 'stopped the check guy' and having an excuse of 'being tired and not understanding what I said yes to'.

You have not a single point to make about the work other than it being wrong TO YOU AS A LAYPERSON.

He is not in charge of your low slung car not fitting. No one on a jury will think he is.

Just a point of view no one here has taken.

You're boned, and any action from him in your favor other than him simply finishing the build in a civil and professional manner, is by HIS good graces IF it all makes code.

You've been correct in asking here before going off on a tirade and bashing the guy.
DO NOT take almost ANY of the advice here that is purely self serving.
Get an opinion from someone locally viable if this doesn't resolve itself today.
Take a week or so to do research. This isn't a 'one conversation fix' unless your contractor wants it to be.

Ridiculous. There is nothing legally binding about a verbal comment to an unknown guy (not the builder) that was not honored anyway - as in what was built was not to the understanding of the buyer ( which is why verbal changes are to be avoided)

This is a perfect example of why a legit builder would not ever let something like this be negotiated without his input and aproval.

The builder is responsible to build fit for purpose, to plan, code, etc.

If a site condition comes up that gets in the way of that he has to get it solved.

Building a garage you can't drive into is a breach.

The "builder" made claims that got the guy to "accept"... those claims turned out to be false... unless you believe that the OP willingly accepted and understood that the result would be as shown. An agreement has two sides, both need to have a meeting of the minds on what it is.

You comments about blackballing etc. are silly. Any other contractor looking at that site would know this builder was nuts to try and pawn off that elevation on a customer.

 

[yeldogt]

Stop email. Either use the phone or regular mail.

Actually -- e-mail are better vs phone.

 

[Tynee]

As a contractor, which I am not:

You've been correct in asking here before going off on a tirade and bashing the guy.
DO NOT take almost ANY of the advice here that is purely self serving.
Get an opinion from someone locally viable if this doesn't resolve itself today.
Take a week or so to do research. This isn't a 'one conversation fix' unless your contractor wants it to be.

I've deleted all the stuff here that I disagree with.

I think the only things we've established for certain in this thread are: 1)that there are a couple of ways to look at this, 2)That you definitely want this fixed before proceeding with any further work, whatever "fixed" winds up being 3)That you and your builder should be working through this together to find a mutually agreeable solution, and that 4)further advice from someone who is local and knows local codes, etc may not be a bad idea.

My advice above, re: stopping payment was an effort at 3). If he's not calling you, I bet you'd get a call as soon as he tried cashing the check. Again, though, expect him to come loaded for bear when he does make that call.

As I look at the pictures again, I still don't think you got what you verbally agreed to regardless of all else. I don't think that board you've got set up is 12' long, and there is clearly more than 12" of drop there from the road level

 

[jav]

no major updates yet. I emailed the general contractor Wednesday asking him to call me, He said he'd call first thing Thursday. I waited till 4PM and called and got his voicemail. Still no word from them.

I did unfortunately give them the check for the second payment. I'm already upset about the concrete issue and the lack of communication is making it worse. I'm near the point of check-cancelling mad. Does anyone think I should put a stop payment on the check until they contact me?

I would stop payment but that's me. I would stop payment and then let him know that due to the gravity of your concerns and his failure to contact you as promised, that you will withhold the final payment until an agreeable resolution is reached. One thing is certain- this will surely motivate him to contact you in a more timely manor.


I'm not a lawyer but this advise is worth what your paying for it.

 

[GMCGarage]

Actually -- e-mail are better vs phone.

Yes, at least that way you have a written record. If he calls, afterwards, shoot him an email with a synopsis of the call, and ask him to reply with anything he disagrees with.

Two things in life

1. If not written down, it didnt get discussed.
2. its not a lie if you believe it yourself.

 

[LB-1911]

no major updates yet. I emailed the general contractor Wednesday asking him to call me, He said he'd call first thing Thursday. I waited till 4PM and called and got his voicemail. Still no word from them.

Two questions -

Measured from the top of the footer -

What is the existing height of the rear wall?

The Authority Having Jurisdiction issued you a permit w/out a plot plan?

 

[yeldogt]

Who drew up the plans? I'm reading that the building was modified in the planning stages vs what the OP originally wanted ... because of height codes ... could the building have been placed further from the alley? Was the height restriction taken from the lowest point of ground the building would sit .. or a reference point on the property?

I ask all of the above .. because I don't see a professional in the mix. All I see is a picture -- You don't build on a slope w/o a reference point ... it's a guess!

I can always tell the people who have never built anything (on a thread) -- they are always the loudest with the strongest opinions .. think they can bully a contractor to fix something (good luck)

I can't help you -- but, a professional may be able to. Ask the code official if any retired architects are around that work on small projects or consult ... I have found this to be so cheap and invaluable. I bet for a couple thousand dollars you could have eliminated all this and had a drawing that someone could work off of. Paying up front for professional help -- gets you a better building and in every case less problems .. And .. this is the kicker it's cheaper for a better product. Homeowners build boxes with windows and a roof ..

Depending on the township -- adding a drain of that length will require a permit .. I would need one in my PA town.

 

[EnchantedForest]

Any judge would hang you out.

I'm not saying things, you are.


It's just a point of view. It's not my point of view. It is solely based on how you will stand a food chance of losing by adhering to the tack most here seem to think appropriate.
If you don't use it to prepare... It would a pattern you've already established.

I'm having trouble following your logic and your English.

 

[EnchantedForest]

Who drew up the plans? I'm reading that the building was modified in the planning stages vs what the OP originally wanted ... because of height codes ... could the building have been placed further from the alley? Was the height restriction taken from the lowest point of ground the building would sit .. or a reference point on the property?

I ask all of the above .. because I don't see a professional in the mix. All I see is a picture -- You don't build on a slope w/o a reference point ... it's a guess!

I can always tell the people who have never built anything (on a thread) -- they are always the loudest with the strongest opinions .. think they can bully a contractor to fix something (good luck)

I can't help you -- but, a professional may be able to. Ask the code official if any retired architects are around that work on small projects or consult ... I have found this to be so cheap and invaluable. I bet for a couple thousand dollars you could have eliminated all this and had a drawing that someone could work off of. Paying up front for professional help -- gets you a better building and in every case less problems .. And .. this is the kicker it's cheaper for a better product. Homeowners build boxes with windows and a roof ..

Depending on the township -- adding a drain of that length will require a permit .. I would need one in my PA town.

The plans were done by the GC. I think there's some confusion about the original change of plans due to height restrictions. The height of the original building was over 15' because of an attic truss design. The new design has no attic trusses and is under 15'. None of that has anything to do with the slope or the elevation of the land or the concrete work that was done.

 

[EnchantedForest]

You may have touched on part of the problem.
I ommited a single word, hit an F instead of a G
And you're lost.

Maybe you should try to reread some of your posts slowly.

 

[eddieK]

Unfortunately the OP gave the OK to the change. I believe the GC should have been their, bit the owner went along with a proposed change without checking himself that the change would indeed be OK.

This will turn into a real finger point session/******* match. In the end, the OP will be out money to have things the way he originally intended.

Contractors are like used car salesmen. They NEVER suggest something that will cost them money or time. They are trying to weazle every sent out of the job.

Correction - Every contractor is attempting to lose as little money as possible. The clients money is no more important than the contractors money any more then the contractors money is more important than the clients money.

They are not used car salesmen, they are people required to outguess the cost of something before it is created and must hold true to that cost...be it five minutes after signing or twenty years after completion.

In a better world clients would all have to do what contractors must do - Pay all labor, all materials and and all expertise as it accumulates completely through a project until completion.

 

[EnchantedForest]

I've deleted all the stuff here that I disagree with.

I think the only things we've established for certain in this thread are: 1)that there are a couple of ways to look at this, 2)That you definitely want this fixed before proceeding with any further work, whatever "fixed" winds up being 3)That you and your builder should be working through this together to find a mutually agreeable solution, and that 4)further advice from someone who is local and knows local codes, etc may not be a bad idea.

My advice above, re: stopping payment was an effort at 3). If he's not calling you, I bet you'd get a call as soon as he tried cashing the check. Again, though, expect him to come loaded for bear when he does make that call.

As I look at the pictures again, I still don't think you got what you verbally agreed to regardless of all else. I don't think that board you've got set up is 12' long, and there is clearly more than 12" of drop there from the road level

I just spoke to the GC. I won't be cancelling any checks, I only considered when it seemed like I was being ignored.

He's going to talk with the sub and his engineer to see if adding more courses of block would have any effect on the load. He seems somewhat willing to work with me on the cost as well. As I've stated before, but probably should continue to mention. I'm not expecting either contractor to eat the costs. I just want them to work with me on correcting a mistake.

And yes the drop off is worse than 12". On the side where the alley is at it's lowest point it is roughly 12" from the alley to the level of interior of the garage, not to the apron. The high side is about 18" from the alley to the level of the interior of the garage. The board I have setup setup is only 8' and roughly shows what one foot higher would look like.

 

[EnchantedForest]

Maybe you should consider it a cross examination without the usual fee for such services.

Your answers are beginning to tell a story.
A story anyone with any experience in ruining one sided stories would pick up on before you could blink.


It's nothing personal.
I'm just showing, not shooting, holes in the theory.

Anger and confusion is not complimented by myopia.


No need to tell you anything more about conversational argument or deposing.

Thanks. You're adorable.

 

[Blk88GT]

Are you sure you want to add ducksface to your ignore list?

Love this feature.

 

[EnchantedForest]

Thanks to everyone here that's offered helpful and useful advice so far. I'll continue to update after me and the contractor come to an agreement and we can determine that it's possible to add extra courses of block.

 

[Ryan]

Thanks to everyone here that's offered helpful and useful advice so far. I'll continue to update after me and the contractor come to an agreement and we can determine that it's possible to add extra courses of block.

I'm one of those people that think you made a mistake and that it's not the contractor's responsibility to make it better... But:

I've sent some PM's telling people they need to have some manners due to this thread. So, keep that in mind... and yeah, don't be afraid to use the "ignore" feature.

 

[EnchantedForest]

Thanks. I can't dispute or argue that I made a mistake. I indeed made a huge mistake like I said in my first post. Emotions can cloud judgement especially when dealing with large sums of money that doesn't come easily.

 

[JJ13]

Boy, I'm glad you're not the contractor. Slapping a lien on someone's home because they "gave me the slightest bit of guff... potty mouthed me in any way" aren't valid reasons legally or otherwise.

"and any action from him in your favor other than him simply finishing the build in a civil and professional manner, is by HIS good graces IF it all makes code. " Uhh, not at all, Especially if I'm paying an extra 5-7k$ to fix it.

I think you're missing the main point. I gave all relevant information about my property to the contractor and was given plans, drawings and a quoted price. When they showed up on site and the grade was different than what they thought, I was suggested a 'solution' by a professional masonry company that creates a virtually unusable garage. Me as a LAYPERSON, as it were, okayed the suggestion. No written change order was done. No conversation between the sub and the GC took place. The concrete work is done and I gave them a check. Now I can't get the contractor to call me back, which is why i'm near considering cancelling the check.

It's one thing to make a mistake and have a miscommunication. But ignoring me has me questioning their professionalism.

Wow, I really wish members on your ignore list (Ducksface) didn't show in quoted text without having to click to "view post". OP, I agree with you. If it were me, I would stop check and leave a message on voicemail in addition to sending an email stating that the reason is because of lack of communication to resolve a serious issue. I'd be looking for a replacement GC and checking with city/county inspectors to verify that it meets code.

Ducksface, BTW, many cars come from the factory with very low ground clearance. There is absolutely no way I could use that with my summer convertible (has maybe 3.5" inches clearance, can't even get a small cheap jack underneath without driving onto wood blocks). It is doubtful that I could even back my 2016 Mazda 6 into that garage because the hitch would probably drag. No way could I use it with the bike rack attached. We don't all drive lifted trucks.

 

[tapered-pin]

I would stop payment but that's me.

OP, I'd advise you AGAINST stopping payment.
There is NOTHING that's going to guarantee you will:
A) NOT get what you want, and
B) Be FORCED to find another contractor to finish the project
like stopping payment on a check to someone.


I need to stress here that the contractor has done nothing wrong. Depending on your state, there is a strong possibility that stopping the check to him will promote him suing you for the complete contract amount (whether he finishes the job or not). Again, I dont know the laws in your state.

 

[LB-1911]

OP, I'd advise you AGAINST stopping payment.
There is NOTHING that's going to guarantee you will:
A) NOT get what you want, and
B) Be FORCED to find another contractor to finish the project
like stopping payment on a check to someone.


I need to stress here that the contractor has done nothing wrong. Depending on your state, there is a strong possibility that stopping the check to him will promote him suing you for the complete contract amount (whether he finishes the job or not). Again, I dont know the laws in your state.

Update as of -

Today, 11:01 AM Post #80

I just spoke to the GC. I won't be cancelling any checks, I only considered when it seemed like I was being ignored.

He's going to talk with the sub and his engineer to see if adding more courses of block would have any effect on the load. He seems somewhat willing to work with me on the cost as well. As I've stated before, but probably should continue to mention. I'm not expecting either contractor to eat the costs. I just want them to work with me on correcting a mistake.

And yes the drop off is worse than 12". On the side where the alley is at it's lowest point it is roughly 12" from the alley to the level of interior of the garage, not to the apron. The high side is about 18" from the alley to the level of the interior of the garage. The board I have setup setup is only 8' and roughly shows what one foot higher would look like.