wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
deleted...
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New garage wiring issue.
- Thread starter babyseal
- Start date
sparky 1971
Well-known member
Keep scrollin', the pics are there.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
theres another thing he screwed up on and its major.
so the outside panel appears to be a meter main since it has a disconnect.
the inside panel is considered a subpanel, that needs a 4-wire feeder (he ran that), and requires an isolated neutral (cant have a bonded neutral in a subpanel- he left the green bonding screw in), and separate ground bars.
the 2 bars (left has green wire, right has white wire) are connected as they should be since they are neutral bars; he needs to add a ground bar on each side, move the feeder ground wire (large green conductor) over to one of the ground bars, and then move the branch circuit ground wires over to each ground bar.... cant have ground wires on a neutral bar in a subpanel...
This guy really doesnt know what he is doing...
so the outside panel appears to be a meter main since it has a disconnect.
the inside panel is considered a subpanel, that needs a 4-wire feeder (he ran that), and requires an isolated neutral (cant have a bonded neutral in a subpanel- he left the green bonding screw in), and separate ground bars.
the 2 bars (left has green wire, right has white wire) are connected as they should be since they are neutral bars; he needs to add a ground bar on each side, move the feeder ground wire (large green conductor) over to one of the ground bars, and then move the branch circuit ground wires over to each ground bar.... cant have ground wires on a neutral bar in a subpanel...
This guy really doesnt know what he is doing...
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wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
yeah i commented too soon...
Answer given, is that here it's not required for residential, only for commercial. Boss was crawling around the attic space when I went out this AM, re-checking everything. Also had the electrician's helper pulling switches and receptacles to make sure they're all wrapped. He fired the electrician, kept the helper, and is finishing the rest himself.
As far as the panel goes, obviously I'm going to have to have another electrician come in and check the panel.
As far as the panel goes, obviously I'm going to have to have another electrician come in and check the panel.
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What is "it's", the conduit?
********.
It's per the NEC. Inspection or not, you need to meet minimum code. Insurance should have a field day with this...
You aren't by any chance near Plymouth, Mich are you?
Not sure who else installed the feeder/panel, but the current electrician, if he knew what he was doing, would have fixed the simple issues before burying them behind more wiring. (Wylie flagged most of these points.)
"It's not required here" is BS. Where is here, anyway? We can easily find what version of NEC your state is on.
IF the attempt is to meet the NEC then MHF is required to be in conduit inside. Why anyone would not want to meet the NEC is pretty stupid b/c it is a minimum. (Lot's of code requirements have come about from the school of hard knocks.
)Those feeder conductors need to be protected. (Sparky gave you some simple options to easily rectify it.)
Not sure what wrapped means, but if it means adding tape around each receptacle/switch, then meh, little value. All you are doing is adding black adhesive slime onto everything for the next guy to deal with (and ***** about.)
Making sure connections are tight, cable protected, properly routed and terminated into boxes would be more valuable.
Having a GC and electrical helper perform the clean up/finishing sounds like you can easily be continuing the same level of questionable work.
Punchlist from just looking at the sub panel pics:
- MHF placed into conduit, add LB at top of wall penetration and continue with conduit through fire stop into panel center connector.
- Put a nail plate over the conduit where it passes through the firestop.
- Add a nailer or 2 into that stud bay to secure cables within 12" of panel entry.
- All of the cables will use there own knockouts to enter the panel. (14-2 and 12/2 can be paired up)
- Remove green bond screw in panel (top righthand neutral bar)
- Add ground bar to lefthand side of panel and connect green ground conductor to it.
- Neutral wires are one per hole in neutral bar.
- Ground wires can be 2 or possibly 3 wires per hole in ground bar.
- Color the whites connected to cb's black (or any non-green, non-grey color)
- Need a nail plate for the cable feeding the mini-split where the stud is notched. (Is it the notch more than 5/8" deep.....NM
) - Make sure the meter main has its neutral bar bonded.
- Make sure meter main has a grounding electrode conductor tied to 2 ground rods, ufer or some equivalent grounding electrode.
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wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
the conduit isnt required? theyre wrong. completely wrong. any loose conductor is required to be in conduit.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
I prefer to put a ground bar on each side of the panel to keep it less messy (ground wires dont have to cross over from right to left side) but not required.
sparky 1971
Well-known member
If there is no inspection system in place there isn't an AHJ. If there isn't an AHJ, there isn't anyone to make amendments to the NEC. Firing him was really the only option but if it's getting finished by the helper you may not be in a better position because of who he learned from.
dcg9381
Well-known member
OP,
Has this electrician been paid? If not, you've got some leverage. As there is no ADJ - what I do in situations like this is:
1) Get a punch list from these sparkies on this board, they are awesome at pointing out mistakes. Best "free inspection" you can get is this board when posting up photos.
2) Hire an "electrical inspector" (or another electrician) - hand him the list from #1 and ask him to do his own inspection, come up with a written report that includes both. Now you have a professional with a licenses listing defects. It'll cost you a few hundred bucks maybe... If that.
Until that work passes inspection (punch list) the electrician shouldn't be paid. Doesn't matter if it's in the AHJ or not, electrical work must be done to relevant code in your area. In my area, it's the county that sets the NEC year code requirement.
I live outside the AHJ, I hire another "towns" inspector that moonlights in the county...
I've seen worse work.. not the end of the world, but it's not what I'd expect from someone with a license.
Has this electrician been paid? If not, you've got some leverage. As there is no ADJ - what I do in situations like this is:
1) Get a punch list from these sparkies on this board, they are awesome at pointing out mistakes. Best "free inspection" you can get is this board when posting up photos.
2) Hire an "electrical inspector" (or another electrician) - hand him the list from #1 and ask him to do his own inspection, come up with a written report that includes both. Now you have a professional with a licenses listing defects. It'll cost you a few hundred bucks maybe... If that.
Until that work passes inspection (punch list) the electrician shouldn't be paid. Doesn't matter if it's in the AHJ or not, electrical work must be done to relevant code in your area. In my area, it's the county that sets the NEC year code requirement.
I live outside the AHJ, I hire another "towns" inspector that moonlights in the county...
I've seen worse work.. not the end of the world, but it's not what I'd expect from someone with a license.
My usual HVAC guy is an electrician and extremely **** retentive. Was buds with my dad, and they were birds of a feather. He's coming down once they're gone and look it all over. I don't think he was impressed with the pics either. At a guess, he'll rip everything out and start fresh rather than **** around fixing someone else's mess.
Semi-retired and a preacher, I'd already scored brownie points with him by calling him to see if he needed/wanted the old HVAC system for one of his congregation, so he was coming down soon to pick it up anyway. Maybe he'll show some mercy on the bill.
Semi-retired and a preacher, I'd already scored brownie points with him by calling him to see if he needed/wanted the old HVAC system for one of his congregation, so he was coming down soon to pick it up anyway. Maybe he'll show some mercy on the bill.
I'm paying the contractor flat rate for the job, electrician is a sub to him. We're buds, he's did work for me for years, we're doing this on a budget, and he's a guy I can call in an emergency and have him standing there in the time it takes him to climb in his truck. He's the type, if he gets stuff, calls me up to see if I can use it, dropped off a stack of 100 YO oak planks awhile back for example. Had a set of wall mount kitchen cabinets for the wood shop and a humongous ventilator fan in his truck this morning. All I got to do is flip the blades, box it in, put wheels on it, and instant garage floor fan.
I'm pretty sure he's not making a penny, probably already losing money, but it's keeping his crew busy and paid between jobs or bad weather days, which is one reason this has dragged out. Plus I'll end up with a fully equipped shop and a lift his own trucks will fit on. Once they're done, he'll no doubt be here hanging out helping with fitting the shop out and helping me get equipment set up.
So not getting into a ******* contest with him, the relative small amount of money isn't worth ill will. I'll quietly have it inspected, fix what needs fixed, and eat it.
dcg9381
Well-known member
I get it, if this is a "zero margin" job where your buddy is a GC you don't want too much drama.
As others have pointed out, this is not code compliant. Will it light itself on fire? Probably not, but I'd hate to hit a 240V line that's sitting in a 2x4... Some of the other mistakes are more obvious like bonding the N/G.
But fixing what isn't right is a good plan too. I assumed this was some sort of job where you paid a "real sparkie" (licensed) that should have known better.
Nope, HE paid a licensed electrician that should have known better. We're both highly unhappy with him. It's a conversation we'll have in the future when everything is done and over, and I show him the punch list, illustrated with copious pics. So he'll know.
If I complained now, he'd bring in another electrician, pay him out of pocket himself, and lose more money. Right now, he's a happy camper, building the garage he'd like to have. He's the guy going "hey, let's do this!", and I'm the guy going "Ummm...we're eating your profit margin".
sparky 1971
Well-known member
I've said it many times through the years, that license is worth about as much as a pinch of poop. I have a few licensed friends that I wouldn't trust to wire a bird house, one that has had a master license way longer than me has called me two times for sure, possibly three to ask where to get adapters to put 100 amp fuses in a 60 amp disconnect because if 60's can be fit in a 100 amp disco, you should be able to go the other way around and a $60 amp disconnectcost less. It's always turned into an argument that ends with him telling me there's no such thing. I could go on and on about the stupid things I've been asked, but you get the point.
dcg9381
Well-known member
So I had a dear friend who was a master electrician. What I found was that he gave up wiring anything years ago and his "business" was to let his employees wire things for him. The business printed cash. He started building houses eventually... Same deal, if you know good workers, treat them well, you can sit back and manage the business. I worked with him on several solar projects for new homes.
He was my go-to on how to do things which is a major piece of the puzzle. IE - which "tinker toy" should I use. He's also let me buy through his wholesale account at the electrical supply company.
But I've never found a better place to "inspect" electrical than here. Massively appreciative for all the knowledge and sharing, even if @wyliesdiesels is going to be a "bit direct" about his findings...
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
sparky 1971
Well-known member
That's nothing. About a month ago he told me how he'd come directly out of a 480 transformer to a 240 transformer and straight into a main lug panel. You could have heard a pin drop when I asked about disconnecting means, over current protection, and bonding a separately derived system. I got a lot of excuses and heard more than once that everything works fine, but have no clue if it was ever made right. I haven't laid eyes on the job, haven't seen any pictures either. I know where it is, but I doubt there is any reason for me to ever go there. It's a scoreboard at a D3 college football field and I'm not a fan.wow just wow
A few years ago I came on here asking if anyone had a pre 2008 code book because a friend called me tell me about a service he'd been on. He discovered a 1990's barn with a three wire feeder and the dumb *** that installed it bonded the neutral bit he had "fixed it" by installing a ground bar and throwing away the bonding strap. Of course, it turned into an argument when I told him it was right before up until 2008 and now it was effed up. I got home and my oldest code book was a 2008. You get one guess as to who it was...
The same guy went through the JATC twice. Once through the residential program where he turned out as a Journeyman. Then he decided to go commercial so they started him over, but as a 2nd year apprentice. He already had a journeymans license when the time for testing came so they let him take the masters and he passed
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wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
time to call the AHJ.... this guy gonna get someone electrocuted/killed
sparky 1971
Well-known member
I'm going to find out if he fixed it, if not there may be an anonymous call made. I think it was too big of a job to not get inspected though. I haven't heard from him since. I was editing- adding to my post when you made this, go back and read it again. You will understand why I don't hold licensing to a high standard.
My HVAC bud will be down next week once I can guarantee these guys are done and gone. No desire to get interjected into the middle. Wasn't committing till he saw it in person, and I didn't have the deficiency list on me, but he hit all the main points. Also said there should be two ground rods, unless I misunderstood. Didn't seem to think there was anything he couldn't fix or requiring me to shut off power till he got here. Gist was, probably not going to spontaneously self combust, but if it ever did, I was well and truly screwed.
Note...he also said the LED lights were garbage. And that the flickering wasn't ever going away until I put in new lights.
Thanks to all for the help and advice!
Note...he also said the LED lights were garbage. And that the flickering wasn't ever going away until I put in new lights.
Thanks to all for the help and advice!
whateg01
Well-known member
Why? Because they are LED? Or because of the brand? I have LED without any issues.
No idea. If you said, however, that he was an old fashioned, cranky, and opinionated old fart, those would be your words, not mine.
Personally, I've not much luck with LEDs. Don't like the light either, hurts my eyes.
zimman
Well-known member
At least 20amp and probably 30 for continuous runs. I did okay with a 20amp, Eastwood multiprocess welder, 110v but it really needed a 30 to be safe.
Zim
sparky 1971
Well-known member
Those lights are just plain junk. Period. I am almost certain the are all the same and it doesn't matter what the box says. I have a customer with money running out his ears but doesn't want to spend any of it so he bought about 50ish of those for me to put up about three years ago. After about six months of changing out fixtures that had failed, he finally let my put up what I wanted to in the first place, but by then the cost had gone up. Way up. There have been other times I have installed pretty much the same thing, but as soon as I know what they want, I tell them to get them because I am in no way, shape, or form going to put a warranty on them. I know there have been failures because I get the call about a light not working; all I say is I told you so now you can change it or I can change it but I don't have a warranty on anything other than the installation so unless it fell off the ceiling, it's going to cost you.
Absolutely agree with all of the observations / advice from Sparky. My only add is that you do not start any repairs (however minor) yourself. If you change ANYTHING they did- you could be blamed for other issues. Give the electrician written notice to stop work even hand written, contact the insurance company & any local building authorities. If the electrician is a subcontractor of the GC, notify him & don't communicate with the electrician.
Lastly---issue no payments until you are satisified that everything will be corrected. I'd hate to see you lose your new building or be injured because of incompentent a holes. You may have to lawyer up, but the insurance company should be involved & assist you. Good luck.
Also, in an earlier post you mentioned something you saw that was not right, but you could live with it. Don't! You'll hate it every time you walk by forever. THEY need to correct everything at THEIR expense.
I'll have it fixed myself, and I'm certainly not threatening legal action. We've did business for years on a handshake (specifically, he just did $90k worth of work on MY handshake), he's a reliable friend, which are pretty thin on the ground, and that's worth more than money. I trusted him, he trusted this guy, we both got screwed. He'll make it right next time around, and it'll all come out in the wash. Even if I rip out every shred of wiring and start from scratch. Which it isn't going to come to. He's already, for example, coming over with his forklift when my lift gets delivered, unloading it off the delivery truck, having his guys drill the concrete for redtops, and set it up. Granted, it's so he can use it too, but hey, that's how the world rolls. Scratch mine, I'll scratch yours. And that's probably close in value to what it'll cost me to have the box unscrewed.
Worse case, I'm going to end up with a hole in the wall/siding re-locating the main feed line conduit, and the GC can fix that easily, and I've got the extra siding on hand. The box has more than enough knockouts in the top to run all the wires and secure them after sorting and separating them out, the electrician was just too damn lazy to do the job right. My guy will be here Tuesday, but from the pics says nothing he can't fix...withholding final judgement till he actually sees it, says there's things he wants to see closer, and after he opens up the meter box. Says that's almost certainly FUBAR too.
As a nod to sparky, he says that now that he's semi-retired, a good chunk of his business is getting called in to either help certified/licensed electricians unscrew their work, or unscrewing it himself.
I'd like to have everything needed when he gets here. I should have enough conduit and fittings on hand. Probably need a bag of clamps, all my electrical bits'n bobs are still buried in the mess. It's an Eaton BR box. Order 2x 21 slot ground bars? Or do I just need 1x since it already has one? Or is the goal to have neutral and ground bars on each side? Order them with the "Ground bar kits" so the mounting hardware comes with? Anything else he's not likely to have on the truck?
Eaton GBK2120 Ground Bar Kit Used With BR and CH Series Loadcenters - Electrical Switches - Amazon.com
Eaton GBK2120 Ground Bar Kit Used With BR and CH Series Loadcenters - Electrical Switches - Amazon.com
www.amazon.com
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Preferrable to have 2- one on each side. You dont currently have any ground bars. The existing bars are neutral bars
Well, duh. No wonder you guys are slapping your foreheads. That really, really isn't safe.
I'll get 2 on order.
End of the day, this is my fault for being lazy, writing breaker boxes off as voodoo, and not educating myself so I'd know when I'm getting screwed. It's pretty obvious once you guys have rubbed my nose in it. Knew it didn't look right, but didn't pursue it.
I'll get 2 on order.
End of the day, this is my fault for being lazy, writing breaker boxes off as voodoo, and not educating myself so I'd know when I'm getting screwed. It's pretty obvious once you guys have rubbed my nose in it. Knew it didn't look right, but didn't pursue it.