New HVAC Installation Costs?

[danieldd]

I'm looking for advice. We have 3 HVAC RUUD units. All of them are 20 years old. They are all split systems. The smaller one never gets used as it heats and cools an area above the garage. The 3 ton unit is for the basement, which only gets used occasionally. The 4 ton unit services the main part of the house and this is the one I am most concerned about. It works fine for the moment. The main unit is also natural gas fired. I'm worried that at 20 years old, the system is going to be cost prohibitive to fix, so I'm trying to understand how much something like this is going to cost to replace.

How much is the markup on HVAC systems these days and how much is the average installation cost on a 4 ton split system? I don't know squat about HVAC and I don't want to get taken advantage of when the time comes for replacement. I don't plan on replacing it until it fails, but I feel the clock is ticking.

My brother is an HVAC technician, but he lives 8 hours away. I've asked him to give me a system quote for replacing the 4 ton unit, so I'm waiting on that information which should be available sometime next week. But I don't know if I can get him up here as he is taking care of our elderly parents and working a full time job. I'm probably low priority for him (and I understand that).

 

[kd3pc]

replacements are just that...I would contact several HVAC shops and have them assess what was installed 20 years ago. Take a seat and go over their proposals. It will not be inexpensive.

We had the F-i-L's unit replaced about a year ago and it was $15K, that did 3.5 ton and fair amount of duct work as they indicated the original unit was DIY installed and needed some . We have gone through 2 float pumps. Otherwise just filters. It is quiet.

Other quotes were in the $5-6K range but were based on 2 ton unit, that "should do the job".

 

[danski0224]

I'm looking for advice. We have 3 HVAC RUUD units. All of them are 20 years old. They are all split systems. The smaller one never gets used as it heats and cools an area above the garage. The 3 ton unit is for the basement, which only gets used occasionally. The 4 ton unit services the main part of the house and this is the one I am most concerned about. It works fine for the moment. The main unit is also natural gas fired. I'm worried that at 20 years old, the system is going to be cost prohibitive to fix, so I'm trying to understand how much something like this is going to cost to replace.

Cost prohibitive to fix? Define what is prohibitive to you. For the most part, parts availability is not an issue. Timeliness may be, though.

Cost to replace? Call local companies and get estimates. Could be anywhere from a six pack to $30k...

How much is the markup on HVAC systems these days and how much is the average installation cost on a 4 ton split system?

Whatever the market will bear. That's how capitalism works.

I don't know squat about HVAC and I don't want to get taken advantage of when the time comes for replacement. I don't plan on replacing it until it fails, but I feel the clock is ticking.

Ha.

It will only break when it is needed.

HVAC failures with the equipment "off" are mighty rare. Still waiting for my first sighting on that one.

Therefore, if you wait until it fails to replace it, then you will be taken advantage of, whether or not your other systems can limp the rest of the house along, because there is lots of other broken **** elsewhere that needs to be fixed RIGHT NOW and at full price. Kinda like Uber "surge pricing".

My brother is an HVAC technician, but he lives 8 hours away. I've asked him to give me a system quote for replacing the 4 ton unit, so I'm waiting on that information which should be available sometime next week. But I don't know if I can get him up here as he is taking care of our elderly parents and working a full time job. I'm probably low priority for him (and I understand that).

 

[mikester]

I just got a price to replace the 2 ton air handler and condensor for the upstairs zone in my house. $10,400 and $550 if I pay cash. The air handler also has a hot water coil for heat. Lines and ducts are already there.

 

[diesel_dan]

I bet the heating/air handler side is fine and what you are probably most worried about is the AC condenser unit. Your Brother will likely tell you to check the running amps on the unit and it is a pretty decent tell on the health of it. We proactively replaced both our splits just because our running amps were so close to the Max rated amps (one was tripping the breaker), and you know it'll go when you need it in hot summer months... Ours are 4 and 3.5 ton units and we went with 80% efficiency on the heat side and Seer 14 on the AC side, Trane is the brand. Just a bit over $20K so I'd cut that in half for just one.

One thing we found when the breaker was tripping was the lugs weren't tight on the wires at the breaker and at the disconnect next to the condensers (likely helped their early demise).

Of course another thing is the regulations changed at the beginning of this year forcing you to go with higher efficiency (and cost) units with a new freon that is now flammable - my hvac guy said they allow install of the old until they run out.

So tighten up your wire lugs and check the running amps of your condenser and compare it to what your Max RLA is on the unit's tag - these things can run for years and years...

I'm not an HVAC person, just telling you what we just went through at the end of last year - best of luck...

 

[danieldd]

Thanks Diesel_Dan for the information. Fortunately in the 3 years we have lived here, the breaker has never tripped. Appreciate the suggestion of checking the max RLA. I can do that.

 

[diesel_dan]

Thanks Diesel_Dan for the information. Fortunately in the 3 years we have lived here, the breaker has never tripped. Appreciate the suggestion of checking the max RLA. I can do that.

Forgot to put in what my HVAC guy said on what you measure running amp wise, versus Max RLA: anything close to 50% of Max RLA and you are golden - even up to 70-75% you likely have years left. We were at 90%+ and our poor guys were just getting tired (plus thy were blowing through the electricity!) - I doubt there will ever be a payout, but it'll be nice to not pay those summer electric bills we had!

 

[metaldad]

damn! im happy i do my own ****.
20 year old unit. will last longer than the **** made today.
btw, rla never matches fla. (running load amps versus full load amps)
never saw it.
r22 is not the curse greta thurberg says it is.,
the refrigerants used now.......... are phased out tomorrow.
my machines are r22. i have every part, except heat exchangers, in house.
just upgraded my domestic water heater.
bought a spare unit as back up
10k, to me, for a new resi unit, is very hi priced

 

[beemerphile]

Other quotes were in the $5-6K range but were based on 2 ton unit, that "should do the job".

There is no room for "should do the job" or copying the original install. The contractor should provide a Manual J load analysis and a Manual S equipment schedule that implements it. Also, before you put in a 4 ton unit again because you had one before, have a look whether insulation and air sealing improvements can reduce the needed tonnage. Money spent on reducing load is usually better spent than buying enough capacity to compensate for losses.

 

[nadogail]

I use an independent shop that sells quality equipment and professionally installs it, they don't advertise but stay booked up just by word of mouth. They don't extend credit, they take cash or credit cards.

I was referred to them 20 years ago and they have done three houses for me.

 

[inphx]

I purchased goodman units from https://www.acwholesalers.com/ and had a local ac guy do the install.

 

[Red 17]

5 ton AC unit with gas forced air heat, from the registers in (all new ducting) $18,000 and change, done in 4 days during a heat wave with the job starting the day after the old system pronounced dead. I talked to another guy--If I could have waited, he would have been about $16000.

 

[smokey0810]

Our system is old and still kicking, thankfully. Will cost $$$$ to replace due to the new freon issue, so all will need to be replaced, not just outside unit.

 

[housewolf]

I purchased goodman units from https://www.acwholesalers.com/ and had a local ac guy do the install.

I’m not saying that wasn’t the best route for you to go, but I just checked their prices vs what I paid two weeks ago at a local Daikin (Goodman) distributor. It’s about a 60% markup. What advantage is there in giving that to an internet retailer instead of your “local AC guy”? As a (former) contractor, I was pretty happy with less markup than that on higher ticket items.

 

[danski0224]

I’m not saying that wasn’t the best route for you to go, but I just checked their prices vs what I paid two weeks ago at a local Daikin (Goodman) distributor. It’s about a 60% markup. What advantage is there in giving that to an internet retailer instead of your “local AC guy”? As a (former) contractor, I was pretty happy with less markup than that on higher ticket items.

There are many here that want to sock it to the greedy contractors and buy the stuff online. They probably do not feel the same way if roles are reversed and people come after their source of income.

The online retailers are selling at retail, despite the word "wholesale" in the name.

In the case of HVAC equipment, they aren't gonna warranty it, either.

The warranty on HVAC equipment sorta ***** anyways, as the manufacturer and wholesaler typically do NOT cover or reimburse labor within the first year, if labor is covered by the manufacturer. Or if there is an evaporator coil or TXV failure, they do not cover all of the "extra stuff" to replace that part. Goodman used to, but apparently not anymore.

 

[fitter30]

Refrigerate lines might have to be replaced. There is a Federal tax on break on energy star equipment and don't forget check with your electric company for rebates also.

 

[housewolf]

There are many here that want to sock it to the greedy contractors and buy the stuff online. They probably do not feel the same way if roles are reversed and people come after their source of income.

The online retailers are selling at retail, despite the word "wholesale" in the name.

In the case of HVAC equipment, they aren't gonna warranty it, either.

The warranty on HVAC equipment sorta ***** anyways, as the manufacturer and wholesaler typically do NOT cover or reimburse labor within the first year, if labor is covered by the manufacturer. Or if there is an evaporator coil or TXV failure, they do not cover all of the "extra stuff" to replace that part. Goodman used to, but apparently not anymore.

That was my assumption. Seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater to me. There’s little risk to margin on equipment, all the risk is in labor. If a consumer lets the contractor make his share of margin on equipment he likely won’t have to bear as much markup on labor. Face it, unless it’s a fly by night outfit, they are going to make a profit. Which is what a reasonable person would want to ensure they are around for service after the sale. What “service” has an internet retailer provided for his large profit margin? Drop shipping a unit?

I was fortunate in my career to have worked with almost all good people. Customers, vendors, and coworkers alike. We priced our work competitively when we had to and always put the “customer experience” near the top of our priorities only behind safety. We had some bad customers we weren’t interested in working with again and we had some customers that had a bad experience with us that wouldn’t call on us again. It happens, but those were outliers.

Kind of reminds me of a saying my grandfather used to use;
A good horse trade is when neither the buyer, seller, or horse gets screwed.

 

[American Locomotive]

It never pays to replace working equipment, and new system installation costs are so outrageous these days that you could entirely rebuild your main system several times over.

You are in a good position because your basement system in a pinch will at least keep the house somewhat warm if the main system failed ( if you opened the basement door).

I would keep it going for as long as you can.

 

[danski0224]

It never pays to replace working equipment, and new system installation costs are so outrageous these days that you could entirely rebuild your main system several times over.

While new installation costs can continue to be debated, rebuilding the system several times over is not really true or even possible- at least on the air conditioning side.

Future replacement costs continue to rise.

 

[inphx]

There are many here that want to sock it to the greedy contractors and buy the stuff online. They probably do not feel the same way if roles are reversed and people come after their source of income.

Yes, been there when my top clients started to source projects from India, and in 2023 im exploiting AI faster than my competitors. I had to reinvent my self when the cross hairs were on my source of income. it doesn't make it feel any better or right.

 

[jjrbus]

I will bet a dollar to a doughnut your 4 ton unit is too big and that most of the quotes you get will be to replace with a 4 ton!

Sizing today is a science not a guessing game or should be ok and only one person mentioned a manual J. Any contractor that does not mention a manual J is not to be dealt with.

Carefully do this or pay to have a J done and compare to what the installers say, I have been doing this 30 years is not a professional answer. Then move on to manual D and S as your duct work may need some tweaking.

https://www.loadcalc.net/

https://happyhiller.com/blog/acca-manual-j-s-t-d-hvac-technician/

 

[pcmeiners]

"There are many here that want to sock it to the greedy contractors and buy the stuff online. They probably do not feel the same way if roles are reversed and people come after their source of income."

Why should I support over paid HVAC companies ? Why should home owners over pay if they have the skills to do the work themselves. Installing a minisplit is far from brain surgery, and requires a reasonable expenditure in tools, easily recouped in one minisplit install. Why should homeowners not want to "sock it to greedy contractors" as that is EXACTLY what they do to customers, with the help of minisplit manufacturers and the government.

 

[Ilikeike]

My buddy is a salesmen in HVAC.

In Ca. $25k to $30k (installed) is normal for a 2,000-3,000sq. ft home. They go up every year due to changes by the State.
Now they're pushing all electric heat pumps in Ca.

 

[NakeDiesel]

Installed a 5 ton heat pump in my shop last fall. I bought the unit off hvacdirect, I built the concrete pad, placed the unit out there, ran electric to it via conduit, set the air handler up in my loft and ran the electric to it as well. Also ran conduit and wire to my thermostat location. Had my hvac come out and run the copper lines, drains and set it up. They also ran duct work out to a 90 degree 18" elbow. That part cost me around 1700.00. I then extended the ducts from there up to the ceiling to a 45 elbow and then a canvas duct system for 20'.

 

[danski0224]

I will bet a dollar to a doughnut your 4 ton unit is too big and that most of the quotes you get will be to replace with a 4 ton!

Sizing today is a science not a guessing game or should be ok and only one person mentioned a manual J. Any contractor that does not mention a manual J is not to be dealt with.

Carefully do this or pay to have a J done and compare to what the installers say, I have been doing this 30 years is not a professional answer. Then move on to manual D and S as your duct work may need some tweaking.

https://www.loadcalc.net/

https://happyhiller.com/blog/acca-manual-j-s-t-d-hvac-technician/

Poppycock.

People here do not want to hear such utter nonsense.

 

[danski0224]

Why should I support over paid HVAC companies ? Why should home owners over pay if they have the skills to do the work themselves. Installing a minisplit is far from brain surgery, and requires a reasonable expenditure in tools, easily recouped in one minisplit install. Why should homeowners not want to "sock it to greedy contractors" as that is EXACTLY what they do to customers, with the help of minisplit manufacturers and the government.

I'd wager that you are also overpaid

 

[pcmeiners]

"I'd wager that you are also overpaid"

Retired, was Network Engineer (previously building Engineer), For my skills and years of education, no.

 

[danski0224]

For my skills and years of education, no.

Not the same field, but otherwise agree.

It is unfortunate that there are so many hacks in the HVAC industry, employers and employees.

 

[American Locomotive]

I'd wager that you are also overpaid

The problem is the HVAC industry is "restricted". Anyone with the requisite knowledge can be a network admin. You don't need to be licensed, no AHJ says you can't do your own network install, and so on. The tech equipment vendors will also provide support directly to end-users. So that means the industry is competitive, and poor/bad network admins can be replaced rather easily.

On the other hand, most AHJs say you can't do your own HVAC or plumbing work without being licensed, insured and undergoing hundreds or thousands of hours of apprentice work. On a Federal level, you're not really allowed to do your own refrigeration work without being properly licensed. Equipment manufacturers won't even give you the time of day if you're not licensed, or sometimes even the original installer.

On paper that should mean HVAC industry workers are professional and highly skilled, but the reality is it just allows for complacency and hack work because the industry is ultimately not competitive. Many AHJs/States only allow employees licensed in a specific area to service that area, and will not accept licenses from another state/area. The barrier to entry is very high, so the end result is a bunch of companies that have grown complacent.

They know home owners can't work on their own equipment, they know the manufacturers won't help them directly, they know they're limited in who they can call to fix their equipment. ...and that's why they charge $6000 to install an $1800 mini split that only requires them to punch a hole in the wall and slap a pre-made slab on the ground.

 

[danski0224]

In my State, there are no requirements for HVAC contractor licensing. Anyone with a set of gauges, a hammer and a jug of Freezone can do it.

However, most municipalities require contractor licensing to do business in the town. That requirement has zero bearing whatsoever on the work being performed. Rather, it's a fee to the town, proof of insurance naming the town as secondary and maybe a bond. Trades that do require State licensing (electrician, roofer, plumber) must also provide that number.

Residential HVAC shops seem to pay less than 30 bucks an hour, but charge 4x to 5x or more, much like dealer auto repair.

While there certainly are cases that can be made for "overcharging", the labor adds up fast.

Most of the time, the contractor ends up eating the cost of warranty labor. I've seen it many times. The manufacturers don't pay **** out.

 

[pcmeiners]

"They know home owners can't work on their own equipment,"

1) Years ago home owners were willing to try and do there own work. Now few want to get there hands dirty, or are willing to research and study, as it it requires effort

2) The manufacturers, service personnel, and government want you to believe your incapable of doing it.


"and that's why they charge $6000 to install an $1800 mini split that only requires them to punch a hole in the wall and slap a pre-made slab on the ground." and do an insufficient pressure tests, purge/evacs and vacuum tests.


"It is unfortunate that there are so many hacks in the HVAC industry, employers and employees."

That is true in ANY industry, part of why I do my own work. I am originally from NYC, talk about hacks, you should see electricians and plumbers and HVAC in the big apple.

"In my State, there are no requirements for HVAC contractor licensing"

Same in Pa, no license until you start producing real money, then you need a contractors license.

I have 4 more mini splits installs to go on my place starting next week.

 

[4x4Pete]

It's usually the same people on here that complain about the HVAC industry. Don't be jealous that the industry protects itself. If you don't like the price your welcome to buy a chinese unit like most of you do and install it yourself. When you've screwed it up enough maybe a nice knowledgeable HVAC guy will help you out. For free.

 

[engineer2]

Well, you should at least have the EPA license (open book $25 online test) and rent a recovery machine and a torch set. Around here there is no EPA police for the DIYer. Anybody can buy a new system online and attempt do their own install. I wouldn't do it because the wife wouldn't be happy with me taking a week to install it and I don't know the nuances of sheetmetal layout.
HVAC is interesting because installation involves knowledge of all major trades except for maybe bricklaying.

I know someone who bought a Goodman furnace and condensing unit online and hired an HVAC guy who was looking for side work. Everything worked out great and he saved thousands.

 

[DrinkMan]

We recently replaced one of our systems. 3 ton Trane Heat Pump. Remove old unit. Replace 30 feet of ducting. Install new unit. Total cost (St Simons, GA): $11,000. Ouch but we had expected and budgeted for it (home inspection had identified potential problems, I was happy we extended the life 2.5 years but we were tired of the old one breaking so often....always with different problems. Unit was 13 years old and the air handler and main unit were two different brands and mis-matched. Some of the ducting was sized incorrectly. It was a mess and it felt good to make it right. Electric bill has dropped more than I expected and cooling, heating, and humidity are all more comfortable.)

 

[danski0224]

and do an insufficient pressure tests, purge/evacs and vacuum tests.

In my experience, this, by far, is an employer problem.

Either they don't provide the thousands of dollars in tools to do this properly, or they do not provide enough time on the job, or both.

But, the employer is certainly CHARGING enough to do the job right.

I will never defend that type of **** work.

 

[pcmeiners]

"In my experience, this, by far, is an employer problem."

Agree, as usual the employee is not making the big bucks, and works under time constraints, but the employer is charging enough to do the job correctly.

 

[fitter30]

50 years in the trade mainly running service work on large tonnage ac and boilers. For comfort and process working for a large mechanical contractor. Many are complaining about prices and yes their are companies that over charge. In larger cities the mechanics have to licensed (continuous training 12 hours a year)workers comp, ohsa training, insurance, price of a truck, all the tools ( every job hauling them out), ladders, computer, the programs ( that change or added 2-3 times a year) and all the continuous training ( nights and day classes). Only worked residential for 2 years and friends of the bosses. The customer was either real hot or cold, pissed and knew it was going to cost a lot. I know i picked this profession.

 

[tomtomgt356]

We got quotes to replace the 5-ton cooling/gas unit in our house last year. Replace condensing unit and indoor unit, unit easily accessible in daylight basement. Quotes ranged from $11k to $20k depending on efficiency and features.

 

[Noltz]

I've been in this situation twice. Old house had a AC from the late 1980's. Worked fine, HVAC-industry family member said "don't replace anything until it's broken and you can't fix it".. me being an automotive technician with strong electrical skills. So over 7 years I replaced a capacitor and the condenser fan motor. The compressor of course seized just after I sold the house but had not left yet so the new owners got a brand new condenser unit.

HVACs advice was to keep a portable AC unit handy and this past winter I relied on five oil-filled electric radiators for heat. **** breaks and backups are relatively cheap.

 

[RoninB4]

I don't want to get taken advantage of when the time comes for replacement.

-Your location states "Southern Tennessee". If you're in Eastern Tennessee I can tell you one large contractor I would NOT hire to do the work. The advice of doing all the calculations is correct, it's not an easy/simple thing to do but should be done first. Simple replacement assumes the previous unit was sized correctly, it might not be. Lots of contractors just use a rule of thumb for sizing because they don't want to do the load calculations. Labor charges can be considerable, and well earned, if ducts need it. As stated, there's a lot of unethical operators in the HVAC field, particularly in this area. I'm installing my own but I'm not an HVAC guy so I have no other qualified advice to offer besides research the subject and arm yourself with knowledge.