New mig welder or stick weld it?

[Jbmotorsports]

So I have a nice 200A tig welder with the stick attachments. I also have a 120v millermatic mig. I'm doing frame repairs on an old jeep and the mig just isn't up to the task. Once it gets hot it's just ok so I stopped and am considering these options.

Surprisingly I've never stick welded before but I bought some rod and was gonna give it a whirl but then I got to thinking maybe I should sell my little mig and get a 240v option. I love this mig for sheetmetal and echaust work, and that's obviously what it is designed for but I don't have a good option for thicker metals that are either too dirty or it would be too slow and impractical to tig. What ya think?

 

[dnschmidt]

That's exactly what I did. I gave a friend my Century 120V MIG and bought a Primeweld 180 220V MIG. This will enable you to do 1/4" material with MIG and 0.035 wire or better yet dual shield which is the absolute best for thicker material.

That stated you MUST explore stick. Stick with your TIG will work fine except for 6010 electrodes and 6011 is just about the same thing as 6010. For most stick welding I use 7014 or 7018. The advantage of the 7014 is that your storage conditions do not need to be as stringent as they must for 7018. You can't beat stick when you really, really want something to STICK.

 

[liliysdad]

I would absolutely use this as a reason to up your wire welder game.

 

[Jbmotorsports]

I don't remember what electrodes I got but it was one of those 2 being 6010 or 6011, why do you say one won't work. My tig is the primeweld 225, I ought to look at their mig as well but damn if the harbor freight 170 mig isn't a good price and I haven't tried an inverter mig yet and it's like 470 right now.

Fine, my arm hath been twisted

Edit: for knowledge sake I'd like to ask why you'd pick mig over stick for this application? Besides ease of use and not dealing with slag is there any other reason? I figured stick might even be better due to the relatively rusty surface. I cleaned up as best as I could but still.

Edit 2: oh shoot the primeweld 180 comes with a spool gun as well for 550, that's pretty damn good as far as I'm aware

 

[crewchief888]

most smaller migs have a short duty cycle
you mention once it gets hot? not sure what you are getting at

 

[steel 35]

mig just isn't up to the task.

Fix this problem.
And I like to stick weld.

 

[LopezBart]

When I want it really stuck, I use stick. But Jeep frames are thin enough for a fairly small mig. Isn't a Millermatic both 120 & 240 w/ the right cord?

 

[seber]

I won't use mig on anything that is not absolutely clean. That would be a stick project for me. 6012 would be my choice here. It has decent penetration with the ability to tolerate some pollution.

 

[Bert_]

I rather stick weld than wire weld, so it's any easy choice for me. Stick is so simple, can be forgiving in non optimal environments, and more portable.

I burn mostly 6011 but 7018 would probably be better on a frame. Someone more knowledgeable can probably give more reason for a recommendation.

 

[Jbmotorsports]

most smaller migs have a short duty cycle
you mention once it gets hot? not sure what you are getting at

I should have specified, I meant once the material got hot not the welder, after an inch or so there was enough heat it started to work.....better I guess. Didn't hit any duty cycle issues surprisingly as I expected that to happen. Now that I think of it I never have had that issue, is it something the machine will regulate or the operator needs to be conscious of?

When I want it really stuck, I use stick. But Jeep frames are thin enough for a fairly small mig. Isn't a Millermatic both 120 & 240 w/ the right cord?

In regards to the thickness of the frame, you're correct. It's the thickness of the repair panels I got, I ought to measure them but boy howdy they're thick. This particular unit is 120 only.

So the electrodes I got are 6010. That was after doing some preliminary googling a little while back. Can someone explain why one is better than the other for this task? Should I not use that electrode? I'm gonna give the stick a whirl, but the thing I have a question about is, do you hold the actual rod with off hand? I defiently am not stable enough to keep on track a foot away from the surface one handed lol

 

[MongoTA]

For anything structural, I generally prefer stick.

Get in your welding position and without firing off the welder, run the line of the weld and see how well you can track it. Don't forget to consider as you make the weld your hand will move closer to the work as the rod gets consumed. Sometimes one handed welding is fine, sometimes due to body position I'll support my welding wrist/forearm/elbow with my free hand.

 

[BukitCase]

6010 is DC only rod, so if your stick welder is AC only, stay with 6011.

"do you hold the actual rod with off hand?"

Not for very long ... Steve

For a less smart-*** anwer, re-read Mongo's previous reply

 

[dnschmidt]

All TIG welders can do stick but most of them can't do 6010 due to the voltage requirements of this particular rod. Some come with a 6010 button that solves this problem but most don't.

 

[finn]

I rather stick weld than wire weld, so it's any easy choice for me. Stick is so simple, can be forgiving in non optimal environments, and more portable.

I burn mostly 6011 but 7018 would probably be better on a frame. Someone more knowledgeable can probably give more reason for a recommendation.

Pretty hard to stick weld shock towers and quarter panels on the 66 Mustang.

At least for me.

 

[Bert_]

Pretty hard to stick weld shock towers and quarter panels on the 66 Mustang.

At least for me.

We aren't talking sheet metal work here. This is a frame.

 

[LopezBart]

I watched a friend weld 1 1/2" exhaust tubing gas tight with a stick welder back in the mid 70s. He has a TIG & MIG now, but he is still really good w/ a stick.

- Bart

 

[Aaron_W]

I don't understand the reason, but a lot of the current inverter welders just don't like 6010. 6011 is a very similar rod, but one that doesn't seem to be an issue with inverter welders.

Not just cheapo welders either, even some of the 200A name brand welders don't recommend 6010.

 

[dnschmidt]

I don't understand the reason, but a lot of the current inverter welders just don't like 6010. 6011 is a very similar rod, but one that doesn't seem to be an issue with inverter welders.

Not just cheapo welders either, even some of the 200A name brand welders don't recommend 6010.

This is due to the higher voltage requirements of the 6010 electrode. See my previous response.

 

[rooster59]

What are you welding on the frame?

 

[whateg01]

I'd have to search for it but the welding shop teacher from Cowley county did a video demonstrating various rods on dirty, oily, and rusty metal. I don't recall him cutting and etching them but all seemed to be capable of dealing with it. I keep er70s6 in my mm180 and e71t11 in the hh187. There are still times when I'll get the sw200 out with some 7018, but most times I just use the flux core.

 

[seber]

The reason I recommended 8012 is that it is a little less aggressive than 6011 while still tolerating some crud. A really good welding professional might not care, but as a lousy welder, I want something that won't immediately blow holes in 1/8" material.

 

[Retroman]

When I want it really stuck, I use stick. But Jeep frames are thin enough for a fairly small mig. Isn't a Millermatic both 120 & 240 w/ the right cord?

The Millermatic 211 is both 120 & 240 and has swappable plugs.

 

[byoungblood]

I just bought a dual voltage, multi-process welder for home (my previous welder was a Miller CST280, great machine, but was 240V only). I've been trying MIG just because I've never done it, but still find myself preferring stick welding. One knob and metal prep isn't as important. Wire wheel the loose rust and paint off, and have at it.

Only time I had some difficulty stick welding was welding some expanded metal to make a grill grate for my fire pit. I think I ended up getting out some 6013 rod and ran it electrode negative so I could get the amps high enough to keep from sticking the electrode but not so high to blow through the metal.

 

[bb29510]

i dont like 6010, its a farmer rod and never will be pretty, I always weld 7018

 

[Jbmotorsports]

Good lord there's a lot of different opinions on the rod to use. Kinda crazy there is that many options just for mild steel. Guess I need to get my learnin on. I have an ac/dc tig, should I not bother with the 6010 at all? It's not a show car and you'll barely see these welds so appearance is not a big concern particularly.

 

[Jbmotorsports]

Oh harbor freight has rods so I don't need to wait for delivery. Looks like they stock 6011, 6013 and 7018 in a multitude of diameters so maybe just get all of them lol?

And I'll research about 6010 with my welder..... ok I'm seeing words like "dig" and "violent" to describe 6010. Looks like I didn't do enough initial research lol. Guys have used 6010 with it but maybe I'll put that aside as 7018 is reported to work well.

 

[whateg01]

I generally say the best way to know is to try it. But if you aren't experienced enough to identify the cause of problems, it could be because of the materials, process, or operator and you won't know which. Whatever you do, I would suggest running some coupons. Cut and etch out at least do a bend test before doing any frame welding on a vehicle.

 

[Jbmotorsports]

Yeah I have a bunch of scrap I'm gonna try out on first for sure. Thanks all

 

[toolenthusiast]

Whatever you do, I would suggest running some coupons. Cut and etch out at least do a bend test before doing any frame welding on a vehicle.

This is the way. When welding sheet metal on the unibody, you can use a peel test, chisel test, or pry test. For a frame I’d agree that a bend test is the only viable option.

At the risk of repeating your good advice, let me stress that the test is only valid if you prepare coupons from the actual material that’s going to be welded. (For some reason, a lot of metal technicians seem to think that they can use random scraps to adjust their settings and technique )

 

[isb cornbinder]

So I have a nice 200A tig welder with the stick attachments. I also have a 120v millermatic mig. I'm doing frame repairs on an old jeep and the mig just isn't up to the task. Once it gets hot it's just ok so I stopped and am considering these options.

Surprisingly I've never stick welded before but I bought some rod and was gonna give it a whirl but then I got to thinking maybe I should sell my little mig and get a 240v option. I love this mig for sheetmetal and echaust work, and that's obviously what it is designed for but I don't have a good option for thicker metals that are either too dirty or it would be too slow and impractical to tig. What ya think?

Welding on an automobile frame, at any time is not a good idea A welder with lots of experience may weld a frame, if after having a good look at the frame, decides to try welding. Many frames are a special alloy that is designed to flex. A weld can change the frame so it will crack where it would have flexed. The picture is of an IHC pickup frame that was bird-**** welded to reduce overheating the frame. A proper weld needs to have penetration. Some frames will not survive.
My best advice to you is to buy a frame from a wrecking yard that handles your model vehicle.

 

[LopezBart]

i dont like 6010, its a farmer rod and never will be pretty, I always weld 7018

6010 is a DC only rod intended for high penetration welds. It's often used when you cannot get at the back side of the welds that needs 100% penetration, like pressure piping. The pipe gets a bevel ground on both side. You leave a small gap at the root of the joint, and weld with 6010. You then grind out the weld so that it's smooth and clean, and cover with 7018 in one or more passes. 6011 is the same as 6010 for AC. Both rods have excellent penetration, and are "sticky" in that they make handling out-of-position (vertical and overhead) welds easier. 6011 is known as "farmer rod" because it will penetrate rust, paint, galvanizing (watch the fumes), etc. This makes it handy for quick, strong repairs.

 

[toolenthusiast]

Welding on an automobile frame, at any time is not a good idea

That’s funny, since the automaker welds it together. And if a truck is in a collision you can weld on a new bumper bracket. Or weld on a new frame horn. Or weld on a new spring mount. Or weld up a tear. Or replace the entire engine compartment area of the frame by welding a new one on. Ford even explicitly allows you to section an F-150 frame with frickin’ stick welding! (And Ford’s frames are famously very flexible by design, so flexibility is obviously not too relevant.)

A welder with lots of experience may weld a frame, if after having a good look at the frame, decides to try welding.

Welding experience does not turn you into a mechanical engineer!

(I like *********** as much as the next guy, but let’s keep the dangerous misinformation to a minimum, shall we?)

 

[liliysdad]

Welding on an automobile frame, at any time is not a good idea A welder with lots of experience may weld a frame, if after having a good look at the frame, decides to try welding. Many frames are a special alloy that is designed to flex. A weld can change the frame so it will crack where it would have flexed. The picture is of an IHC pickup frame that was bird-**** welded to reduce overheating the frame. A proper weld needs to have penetration. Some frames will not survive.
My best advice to you is to buy a frame from a wrecking yard that handles your model vehicle.

These sorts of posts never cease to entertain. It’s as if frames aren’t welded every single day, from hot rods to heavy haul trucks.

You don’t need a stick welder, or anything special to weld a frame. They aren’t particularly thick, especially in something like the Jeep the OP is describing. A decent 110v wire machine would handle it just fine.

Folks make big deals out of nothing.

 

[whateg01]

That’s funny, since the automaker welds it together. And if a truck is in a collision you can weld on a new bumper bracket. Or weld on a new frame horn. Or weld on a new spring mount. Or weld up a tear. Or replace the entire engine compartment area of the frame by welding a new one on. Ford even explicitly allows you to section an F-150 frame with frickin’ stick welding! (And Ford’s frames are famously very flexible by design, so flexibility is obviously not too relevant.)

Welding experience does not turn you into a mechanical engineer!

(I like *********** as much as the next guy, but let’s keep the dangerous misinformation to a minimum, shall we?)

That's cannot be applied universally. Some frames or subframes use alloys that will crack or lose their temper if welded. I would say it's far more dangerous to tell strangers with unknown levels of experience, knowledge, equipment, or vehicles that's it's fine for them to weld on their vehicles than to advise against it. I agree it's fine on an old jeep frame, though. I've also seen some frame mods, sectioning or c-notches, for example, that had no fusion or penetration or were just very poorly implemented where it would have been wise for the builder to have hired it out instead of putting a truck whose frame was one pothole away from folding in half on the road.

 

[Jswain]

Fluxcore would be another option to entertain, especially if the metal is rusty/old/hard to get 100% clean.

Your 120v MIG may even be up to the task if you did your part cleaning it as good as possible and use the heat in your favor ie: no downhill. And use a 20a dedicated outlet

I welded all new 4 link brackets on my old 4runner's rear diff with a 120v Lincoln & some fluxcore wire. Drove it for 6-7 more years then sold it and it's still driving around 6-7 years later.

 

[LopezBart]

Certain heavy duty truck frames are heat treated and cannot be welded; they are clearly marked, however.

 

[toolenthusiast]

frames or subframes

Subframes are a completely different conversation & a completely different type of vehicle construction.

I would say it's far more dangerous to tell strangers with unknown levels of experience, knowledge, equipment, or vehicles that's it's fine for them to weld on their vehicle

Who’s saying that?

 

[toolenthusiast]

Certain heavy duty truck frames are heat treated and cannot be welded; they are clearly marked, however.

Some heavy duty trucks let you repair or even extend the frame by simply fabricating a piece that will sleeve over top of the existing frame and bolting it on. The important thing is always to follow the repair procedures

 

[Chris_Hamilton]

Welding on an automobile frame, at any time is not a good idea A welder with lots of experience may weld a frame, if after having a good look at the frame, decides to try welding. Many frames are a special alloy that is designed to flex. A weld can change the frame so it will crack where it would have flexed. The picture is of an IHC pickup frame that was bird-**** welded to reduce overheating the frame. A proper weld needs to have penetration. Some frames will not survive.
My best advice to you is to buy a frame from a wrecking yard that handles your model vehicle.

That's just silly. Most frames are mild steel. Late model stuff is different (2014 or so up) but not all, and many many years ago Henry Ford used cr-v in his Model T and Model A frames. You can still weld CR-V though. Most though are completely weldable. GM sells a replacement front clip of the frame for the trucks they make. Late model to current. You cut the old and weld the new one. (simplified)That's how GM recommends repairing certain front frame damage. I have done several with the frame clip.

Personally though I think welding it with a stick is hacky. I guess it would work but a TIG or MIG would be much better IMO. I have welded a lot of boxing plates on street rod stuff. One place I worked at we would make repop 32 Frames from multiple pieces of steel. All MIG/TIG welded. Never a failure, never an issue if done properly. Properly welded mild steel is not going to crack. A crack would indicate a cold weld.

If the OP is welding on something really late model then yes possibly he might run into HSLA steel on the frame. But AFAIK, Jeep Wrangler have never used HSLA in the frame rails, even to this day. Only Ford is using it currently IIRC.

 

[liliysdad]

Personally though I think welding it with a stick is hacky.

You and me both.