To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

New patio pour. It cracked.

RaisedByWolves

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 4, 2023
Messages
3,629
Location
SE PA.
Yesterday we had this job finished up and we were so happy.

A home improvement job finally went well, holy ****.

Today we look over it and its cracked in some rather ugly ways.


What are your thoughts on this.

IMG_2898[1].JPGIMG_2899.jpg
IMG_2901[1].JPG
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

BillK

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2006
Messages
9,366
Location
Beautiful Southern Maryland
My concrete driveway has some similar cracks that have been there since about a day after we poured it . . . . 20 years ago :) I stopped worrying about them a looong time ago.
 

gsmith22

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 14, 2015
Messages
337
Location
Central NJ
shrinkage cracks. nothing you can do about it now. its from excess water in the mix not required for cement hydration that evaporates off. The resulting reduction in volume (as the water evaporates) causes internal tension in the concrete as it shrinks. cracks form perpendicular to direction of tension stresses from shrinkage. you'll get them at points of the shrinkage restraint such as the corner of your step, probably corners of the slab, or around openings, etc.

Only thing you could have done was keep the concrete wet for no less than 3 days but preferably more like 7 days. that would have allowed the concrete strength (f'c) to have risen substantially before the shrinkage occured (as the excess water evaporated) and may have resulted in less noticable cracking. As an example, I put a lawn sprinkler on my concrete pool ~ 1 hour after they were done finishing the shell and let it run for a week. Even after shutting off the sprnkler and the pool shell drying out (before plaster finish) I never saw a single crack. They are probably there just way finer and not readily visible. I pity the fool that tries to remove that pool (famous last words; it will probably be me :))

Most don't reailze this, but to get the rated strength of a mix design (f'c), you have to "cure" the concrete which generally means keeping it wet or spraying compounds on it that stop the evaporation of excess water. Your patio will be fine becuase its not a structural element supporting loads. But proper concrete work includes the curing step which is rarely done outside of commercial construction.
 

paredown

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
Messages
545
Location
Pomona, NY
No comment on the concrete, but I really like that patio!
Agreed--looks great with the lines of the house, and I like the multi-levels.

If you did get fired up, that's a perfect surface to go over with slate or porcelain (as someone mentioned).
 
OP
R

RaisedByWolves

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 4, 2023
Messages
3,629
Location
SE PA.
shrinkage cracks. nothing you can do about it now. its from excess water in the mix not required for cement hydration that evaporates off. The resulting reduction in volume (as the water evaporates) causes internal tension in the concrete as it shrinks. cracks form perpendicular to direction of tension stresses from shrinkage. you'll get them at points of the shrinkage restraint such as the corner of your step, probably corners of the slab, or around openings, etc.

Only thing you could have done was keep the concrete wet for no less than 3 days but preferably more like 7 days. that would have allowed the concrete strength (f'c) to have risen substantially before the shrinkage occured (as the excess water evaporated) and may have resulted in less noticable cracking. As an example, I put a lawn sprinkler on my concrete pool ~ 1 hour after they were done finishing the shell and let it run for a week. Even after shutting off the sprnkler and the pool shell drying out (before plaster finish) I never saw a single crack. They are probably there just way finer and not readily visible. I pity the fool that tries to remove that pool (famous last words; it will probably be me :))

Most don't reailze this, but to get the rated strength of a mix design (f'c), you have to "cure" the concrete which generally means keeping it wet or spraying compounds on it that stop the evaporation of excess water. Your patio will be fine becuase its not a structural element supporting loads. But proper concrete work includes the curing step which is rarely done outside of commercial construction.
Thanks for the input. The mix didn't look overly wet, actually drier than I expected to see, but I think you hit the nail on the head re shrinkage as the steps were poured after the upper part and were constrained by it.

It was supposed to be cut the next day but we had scheduling issues and that would have probably prevented this. I didn't want expansion joints as they look like **** on a patio IMO and on the steps there would just be a big ugly gap in a few years.
 
OP
R

RaisedByWolves

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 4, 2023
Messages
3,629
Location
SE PA.
Agreed--looks great with the lines of the house, and I like the multi-levels.

If you did get fired up, that's a perfect surface to go over with slate or porcelain (as someone mentioned).
Huh, I thought that was a joke.


No comment on the concrete, but I really like that patio!
Thanks for the compliments, I actually came up with the idea.

The higher pad was there from when the house was built and needed some help. It was just a raised patio that was supposed to be a florida room, but the original owner died (Interesting story on the house, designer and builder) and the widow never changed a thing.

Since 1971 when her husband died.

So basically if you took a wrong step it was a 18" drop to the lawn. We had stone "Steps" (boulders) but only in spots and flag stone on the end where the bilco doors are. That was either a muddy mess, weedy thing to trim and or sticker plants that sucked to step on with a plate of food off of the grill.

The builder didn't quite understand what I wanted but I caught them laying out the lines and we corrected mid stream for the lower landing step. Not only does give it that cascade look all around, but I can drive the mower over the lower landing and landing step and not have to weed wack!

Plus the shallow wide steps are easy to navigate for old people (We plan on being buried in the back yard), drunk people or in the dark.

On the lower end I'm putting a grill gazebo this year and next year a cabana over the upper teir.


Either this.



Or this



If anyone knows of more grill gazebo options Im all ears.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

gsmith22

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 14, 2015
Messages
337
Location
Central NJ
Thanks for the input. The mix didn't look overly wet, actually drier than I expected to see, but I think you hit the nail on the head re shrinkage as the steps were poured after the upper part and were constrained by it.

It was supposed to be cut the next day but we had scheduling issues and that would have probably prevented this. I didn't want expansion joints as they look like **** on a patio IMO and on the steps there would just be a big ugly gap in a few years.
The mix doesn't have to be "overly wet" to end up with shrinkage. Pretty much all mixes that exactly follow the mix design will have extra water for just hydration because the exact amount of water needed for full hydration of the cement would make the mix so stiff as to be completely unworkable. So as a rule, mixes include more water than is necessary for complete hydration. Theoretically you could have just enough water for hydration and add a bunch of plasticizers for workability and not have any shrinkage (because there is no water to evaporate) but that would be very expensive concrete because chemicals cost lots more than water. There might also be practical limitations to this too such as making sure what little water is there comes in contact with all cement particles. So you have mixes that are a compromise on results, workability, cost, etc. and usually have more water than is needed for just hydration. And that extra water is going to evaporate causing changes in volumne and the resulting shrinkage.

I think keeping it wet would have probably been the only real way to minimize any visible cracking as I described above. Once its dry, hydration mostly cesases and you got what you got so to speak. I think it looks good (even with the fine cracks) so I wouldn't get too worked up. its a mixed bag wether expansion joints would have helped here because shrinkage is a one time phenomena associated with casting/curing where as the epansion joints have to do with thermal changes and expansion/contraction of the overall volumne seasonally. Plus cosmetically, I don't know how you put an expansion joint on that corner and make it look good or place them so that all shrinkage cracks are contained within them.
 

FredWanaker

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 27, 2021
Messages
1,470
Location
NorCal
looks nice. We poured all our stuff like that, above grade. Just got a note from the Insurance company that they will pay to have a fire crew around during any "wildfires" if the house meets certain criteria, one being that all horizontal spaces around it are 6" or greater below any combustible materials in the home. Oh well, not ripping out the concrete. Those cracks likely won't get worse unless you live in an area where water / soil freezes deep in winter. In that case there are sealers that can be injected into the crack to slow that process.
 

nadogail

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Messages
32,054
Location
Coronado, CA
My concrete guy guarantees that his slabs will crack and nobody will steal them. Some of his work never cracked, but nobody complained yet; none of them have been stolen.
 

ConCretin

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2011
Messages
3,379
Location
Central Maine
As others have mentioned, those are typical shrinkage cracks. They were likely unavoidable given the size and geometry of the placement.

At least one occurred at what is referred to as a re-entrant corner. The only way to avoid a crack at re-entrant corners is to eliminate re-entrant corners in the first place. Shrinkage cracks are more prevalent when too much water is added to concrete but they commonly occur at normal slumps as well.

The only thing you could have done to change the appearance of the crack would have been to use control joints to hide them under a straight cut. All the control joints required to hide potential cracks might look worse than a few random cracks and there is no guarantee you still won't get a rogue crack because concrete seems to have a mind of it's own when it comes to cracking.

The cracks will probably won't get any wider or present any future problems especially if you placed on a solid base and/or installed reinforcing. There are methods for 'repairing' the cracks but they will look worse than they do now.

You have a great looking job. You won't even notice the cracks after a while. Enjoy your new patio!
 

wssix99

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 2, 2011
Messages
5,163
Location
Chicago, IL
This. ^ IMO - The shrinkage cracks look better than proper control joints on those steps.

It is technically possible to reinforce a slab with rebar to avoid control joints entirely - but not practical. The cost of an engineer to do this would be outrageously expensive and finding one with the proper skill and experience willing to take a residential job would be nearly impossible.
 

bb29510

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 27, 2022
Messages
1,216
concrete always cracks on corner, its not anything wrong, it just does
 

Cairo94507

Well-known member
Joined
May 9, 2015
Messages
344
Location
Auburn, CA
I had a very similar experience when I had my patio poured and steps included for 2 sliders. I also had it stamped. I was never satisfied with the finish and the cracks that formed. None were large; all were like the ones you posted. But when you pay good money and hire the best, you expect the best. Sold the house; not because of the patio.
 

gizardlizard

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 29, 2019
Messages
732
Location
Madison, WI
There’s two types of concrete: the type that is cracked and the type that is going to crack. Expression I learned years ago and for the most part it’s true.
 

dcg9381

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 20, 2018
Messages
11,927
Location
Austin, TX
I agree, looks great. I'd be vastly more concerned that it slopes away without any major low spots than worry about that minor crack. It might be different if you were parking skid steers on it, but I think it turned out great.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
Top Bottom