New service or sub panel advice needed

[larry4406]

My concrete buddy let me borrow his mini-x and I dug 300' in one day. Had not run one in 15 years.

Maybe upgrade to 400A at the barn, convert the house to a sub from the barn, then co-locate your generator at the barn.

 

[ururk]

My concrete buddy let me borrow his mini-x and I dug 300' in one day. Had not run one in 15 years.

Maybe upgrade to 400A at the barn, convert the house to a sub from the barn, then co-locate your generator at the barn.

Ha!

 

[ururk]

Small, tiny update. I called DTE and asked to have a service upgrade evaluation. I'm expecting a call any day now - well, not really. I expect I'll have to call them in a few days and get a promise to call me back in a few days.

At the moment I don't have time to start any of this, but as soon as final inspection I'll pull the permit (provided I don't have to specify exact details short of "bringing electricity to outbuilding".

 

[ururk]

Talked with the service planner... if I need an evaluation of any kind, I need to work with an electrician.

They will upgrade the service (after I or an electrician installs a new meter box).

$50 fee plus $4.60/ft to lay new cable.

I think the house is about 200 feet from the pole, have to measure. She also suggested just "run power and if I find I'm running into issues upgrade the service later".

I think I'm leaning towards:

Install large panel in barn
Run cable that supports 100A
Breaker feed at barn/house at 90A
See how the summer goes with A/C, etc...

Thoughts?

 

[ururk]

Oh, she did allude to another option that was... interesting. I think I understood it, but basically:

1) put the meter down by the pole
2) connect meter to cable running to house
3) I can run my own cable from pole to barn

Does this sound right? I may have misunderstood.

 

[ururk]

Ok folks - I'm ready to start! I've decided to do a sub panel off the house. Problem is, they are not giving out permits at the moment, so I was hoping I could get two pieces of advice:

1) How do I figure out what I need to buy, and where do I start looking for a diagram for the electrical setup?

2) What work - if any - can I do ahead of pulling the permit?

#1 is the most important - I'd like to begin buying materials. I know this makes me sound like someone who should not attempt an electrical project, but please understand I've done a lot of electrical work on existing circuits, I just need some pointers and advice.

Thanks!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Ok folks - I'm ready to start! I've decided to do a sub panel off the house. Problem is, they are not giving out permits at the moment, so I was hoping I could get two pieces of advice:

1) How do I figure out what I need to buy, and where do I start looking for a diagram for the electrical setup?

2) What work - if any - can I do ahead of pulling the permit?

#1 is the most important - I'd like to begin buying materials. I know this makes me sound like someone who should not attempt an electrical project, but please understand I've done a lot of electrical work on existing circuits, I just need some pointers and advice.

Thanks!

If a permit is required, then you cant do any work before pulling the permit

 

[ururk]

If a permit is required, then you cant do any work before pulling the permit

But I can purchase the parts to do the work, correct? That is, I can purchase the subpanel, wire, conduit, etc...? I'm pretty sure it will take me a while - many trips - to buy everything I need, so I'd like to at least have everything ready to go when I pull the permit.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

yeah no permit is required to make purchases

 

[ururk]

yeah no permit is required to make purchases

That's fine - I can get everything ready, and pull the permit when the township opens up... sometime in the hopefully not too distant future.

 

[Bert_]

I've hardly ever pulled a permit before doing the work.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I've hardly ever pulled a permit before doing the work.

yeah i shouldve prefaced my comment with YMMV

jurisdictions out here get real upset if someone starts work before pulling a permit

 

[Terry D]

yeah i shouldve prefaced my comment with YMMV

jurisdictions out here get real upset if someone starts work before pulling a permit

Dont i know that, i almost had to go before the board one time for that. We have anumber to call and leave a message if a emergency job happens and would need a permit after hours.

Sent from my SM-G960U using The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[ururk]

yeah i shouldve prefaced my comment with YMMV

jurisdictions out here get real upset if someone starts work before pulling a permit

I think... well let me say this much. They want to inspect the trench, and obviously see things installed before I hook things up to the main breaker... so yeah... but I would never do anything of the sort...

I left a voice message on their machine - hoping to get some clarification, specifically on what inspections (and when) are required. I'm pretty sure just two - one for the trench, and one for the final inspection.

 

[mike93lx]

yeah i shouldve prefaced my comment with YMMV

jurisdictions out here get real upset if someone starts work before pulling a permit

But no one is doing an inspection before issuing a permit.

I would just keep my mouth shut and get it done.

 

[ururk]

But no one is doing an inspection before issuing a permit.

I would just keep my mouth shut and get it done.

Exactly.

 

[Bert_]

I usually fill out the permit and request an inspection at the same time.

 

[acer66]

The only way I would start buying or doing stuff before pulling a permit is if I would not pull one otherwise it just seems just asking for trouble because they might not approve something for whatever reason.

 

[ururk]

The only way I would start buying or doing stuff before pulling a permit is if I would not pull one otherwise it just seems just asking for trouble because they might not approve something for whatever reason.

Well, I know the permit will be given, and from what I recall (still waiting to hear back from the township) there are only two inspections... so if I buy the wrong things and install them incorrectly, it won't matter whether I've pulled a permit or not.

First order of business - how do I figure out what is required by code? I've attached the permit application.

At the bottom of the first page it mentions prohibiting a person from circumventing a licensing requirement - is this just if a contractor is hired? Don't homeowners have the right to do their own work?

https://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(x....aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-125-1523a

Regardless, we use:

Michigan Building Code 2015
2014 National Electrical Code


I also found this:

https://www.michigan.gov/statelicensesearch/0,4671,7-180-24786-244476--,00.html

To obtain electrical permits, an applicant shall be an electrical contractor or specialty contractor licensed by a municipality or by the State Electrical Administrative Board

Or

A homeowner performing electrical work in a single family home and accompanying outbuildings owned and occupied, or to be occupied, by the person performing the installation.

As specified on that page, no work should be commenced without first obtaining a permit.


If I could get some help/pointers on where to start for developing the system diagram, I'd appreciate it. I have a copy of the NEC code.

 

[u2slow]

For the non-electrician, I suggest one of those DIY books. Something like this:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Wiring-...lectrical-Installation-Guide-ERB-WS/100085271

Use a Code book for reference on finer details.

In general, permit-type paperwork will insist all rules are followed (i.e. licensing). In many trades, there is an advanced level of certificate and/or license required for contracting that goes beyond the standard journeyman qualification. If homeowners are allowed to do the work (per jurisdiction), that is generally an exception to the license requirement. Check with your permit office.

 

[ururk]

Thanks - ordered the book, looks like a solid resource. I also spoke with the township. No permits until the stay at home order is lifted (not surprising). She seemed to think there were two inspections - one for rough in, another for final. I am allowed to do the work - as the homeowner I do not need a license.

This will be a good time for me to plan out what I need, maybe order anything special (ie, circuit breaker panels, circuit breakers) that I might be able to order at a discount as opposed to purchasing locally. I might give one of the electrical supply houses a call, to see what everything would cost from a single supplier.

 

[ururk]

The book arrived... very helpful. Read through it all.

A while ago my older brother suggested that I run two 120v "legs" from the house - this means I would install:

60A dual breaker in the house, 2 hot wires -> to barn
One neutral wire from buss bar in house -> to barn
Ground wire -> to barn (is the separate ground wire necessary?)

@ barn
separate ground rod (actually two to avoid testing for resistance, spaced 6' apart)

All encased in a PVC conduit 18" from the top of the conduit.

================ Some questions ===============

Wire from house to barn:

I'm a bit confused about when I need to ground the bussbar in the barn? Based on what I read - it should NOT be grounded?

When would I want to use direct-burial cable, and when would I decide to run it in conduit?

I have a distance of max 150 feet from the house breaker out to the barn. To support 100A in the future, and allowing for up to a 2% drop, it looks like I would need to run 1/0 wire, in a 2" PVC conduit.


At the barn:

It says in a few places lighting must be provided at every entrance - I have a light installed above the side door, but not the big garage door. Is the garage door considered an entrance? Would spillover light from the light over the side door be sufficient.

 

[ururk]

Also... not to get too far ahead of myself, but does this look like an appropriate choice?

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-...th-Cover-Value-Pack-HOM4080M200PCVP/204836379

It supports bottom feed entry (by "rotating the device"), and arc-fault style breakers.

 

[jim111]

Yes you need the four wire feed. Yes the barn needs 2 ground rods or ufer ground (if one was installed prior to foundation pour). Neutral is not bonded to panel box but kept separated from ground. You will need to purchase the ground bar separately for the panel if it is not included. Yes square d is a good panel IMO

 

[ururk]

Yes you need the four wire feed. Yes the barn needs 2 ground rods or ufer ground (if one was installed prior to foundation pour). Neutral is not bonded to panel box but kept separated from ground. You will need to purchase the ground bar separately for the panel if it is not included. Yes square d is a good panel IMO

I found out about the ufer ground too late in the process, would have preferred that route, but oh well!

Thanks - I'm going to work on a system diagram, I think I saw one on this forum a while back.

 

[ururk]

Deleted this comment. I need to research panels a bit more. It seems like some breakers requires a pigtail, whereas others don't. Also, CAFCI's on Square D boxes overlap the neutral bar, whereas they don't on Siemens, but Siemens require a pigtail.

 

[jim111]

The panel you linked in post #63 has the plug-on-neutral feature. This means you don't need to use the breaker with the pigtail wire. Much cleaner and saves space. Don't know why you would use any arc-fault breakers in a barn or out-building however

 

[ururk]

The panel you linked in post #63 has the plug-on-neutral feature. This means you don't need to use the breaker with the pigtail wire. Much cleaner and saves space. Don't know why you would use any arc-fault breakers in a barn or out-building however

Looking through the internet, Michigan appears to be exempted from requiring them. My only real concern would be equipment or wiring malfunction that results in fire. Although excessive, I plan to use EMT tubing, metal boxes, metal plates. I suspect if there was an arcing condition in my wiring it would burn itself up before burning down the structure. As for accessory appliances - I will have a dehumidifier, which would be the only thing I run unattended.

 

[mike93lx]

have you priced out all of those arc fault breakers? not saying to not get them, it will just be expensive.

 

[ururk]

have you priced out all of those arc fault breakers? not saying to not get them, it will just be expensive.

Oh, I did. I think if I were to use then, I would be judicious - just where I had concerns. At that point it might be wiser to just install an AFCI outlet where I wanted one.

 

[Bert_]

I am convinced AFCI's are more about putting money in the manufacturers pocket than your safety. Not saying they don't work but not as well as they claim.

Electrical fires are usually from loose connections. I have seen them get very hot and they usually don't arc.

 

[ururk]

I am convinced AFCI's are more about putting money in the manufacturers pocket than your safety. Not saying they don't work but not as well as they claim.

Electrical fires are usually from loose connections. I have seen them get very hot and they usually don't arc.

Most of my pluggable circuits will be powering motors - reading about afci’s, it sounds like there could be issues, especially since some of my power tools are older/vintage.

So... I’m not seeing the need. I’m thinking then I’ll go with a pluggable square d panel, the model with a copper bussbar.

I started ordering tools - two EMT benders (klein, one heavily discounted!), a chuckable power reamer.

What kind of torque screwdriver should I get?

 

[mike93lx]

Most of my pluggable circuits will be powering motors - reading about afci’s, it sounds like there could be issues, especially since some of my power tools are older/vintage.

So... I’m not seeing the need. I’m thinking then I’ll go with a pluggable square d panel, the model with a copper bussbar.

I started ordering tools - two EMT benders (klein, one heavily discounted!), a chuckable power reamer.

What kind of torque screwdriver should I get?

Torque screwdriver? You don't have a calibrated elbow?

Take it as far as you want, but that is overkill, IMO

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I am convinced AFCI's are more about putting money in the manufacturers pocket than your safety. Not saying they don't work but not as well as they claim.

Electrical fires are usually from loose connections. I have seen them get very hot and they usually don't arc.

Yup

I used to do a lot of service calls.

Would find a lot of burned up outlet terminals due to loose connections and..... incorrect breaker size.

Had one call where the new homeowners had to use a bunch of electric space heaters due to the central heat going out. They ended up plugging in all the heaters onto the same circuit throughout the house and it went out.

But the breaker didnt trip. Turns out it was a zinsco 30a protecting #14 NM. The terminals on the first outlet in the chain melted.

 

[ururk]

Ouch!

For the calibrated elbow... well I tend to overdrive screws, but I can try the advice in the book which says to get it tight then do another half turn.

=====


Went out and measured...

35' from house electrical panel to rim joist
75' from outside of house to barn
Assume 4' rise at house, 6' (max) rise at barn

Approx 120' of wire between circuit breaker and barn

For a 2% drop, allowing an upgrade to 100A in the future, it looks like I can go up to 145 feet using:

2 AWG THWN - Hot legs (120v) and neutral wire
? AWG bare wire

For the grounding rod:

6 AWG ground wire to grounding rods, into cabinet

Any thoughts on this?

 

[ururk]

Also - if I run 1 1/4" EMT from the breaker to the rim joist, and use a 2" entrance ell on the outside, does that reset my allowable # of bends through conduit?

 

[ururk]

Finally, I would like to get some prices from a local electrical supply house as well as the big box stores. Anyone in my area (southeast MI) have any recommendations on who to call?

 

[u2slow]

Finally, I would like to get some prices from a local electrical supply house as well as the big box stores. Anyone in my area (southeast MI) have any recommendations on who to call?

When I was contracting, I was at the big-box just as often. Prices are usually better. Small-time guy can't get the high-volume pricing in most cases. Store hours and ease of returns much better on big-box too.

 

[ururk]

When I was contracting, I was at the big-box just as often. Prices are usually better. Small-time guy can't get the high-volume pricing in most cases. Store hours and ease of returns much better on big-box too.

Reason I asked... I found an online retailer out of IL, free shipping, with THHN/THWN-2, 2 AWG for 1.20/ft. The lowest big box stores go are 1.50. I would prefer to go with a MI retailer, only because they would stock things that are common to our area... but don’t mind ordering out of state.

 

[u2slow]

Reason I asked... I found an online retailer out of IL, free shipping, with THHN/THWN-2, 2 AWG for 1.20/ft. The lowest big box stores go are 1.50. I would prefer to go with a MI retailer, only because they would stock things that are common to our area... but don’t mind ordering out of state.

Sounds like you have more and better options then.

Big-box stores here don't go larger than #6 and no aluminum available. I'm mainly speaking as far as panels, connectors, fittings, and the rest for your branch circuit stuff. I find breakers to be a good value online these days.