new wiring for 220/240 outlets

[hoffman912]

Hi gang,

I am going to run new service to the detached garage, as an easier and more affordable solution than upgrading the 100 amp service to the house (AEP and the city are both cool with it). In talking with the city about permits and hwo i was going to do everything, he mentioned each circuit had to have a GFCI outlet on it (with the rest in that line attached to it).

Do i need to do the same for 220/240 outlets? i was planning on having two dedicated 220/240 circuits, each on their own 50 amp breaker, for 1) an air compressor and 2) for welder and maybe plasma cutter. (for the record leaning towards 200 service to the garage to allow for big tools like these in the future should i need them for restoring my 912 or any other cars)

as far as i know there isnt a 220/240 GFCI outlet.. do i need to make the breaker a GFCI breaker? or is that really only applicable for 110 outlets?

 

[Mustang51js]

Just the 110 outlets need gfi protection.

 

[hoffman912]

sweet! that makes it easy.

the 110 GFCI, does that include lighting and garage door opener? (lighting are going to be plug in florescent lamps). is it better/easier/more cost effective to have the breaker be gfci if i plan on having several outlets on a circuit? i understand phantom tripping can happen if you have a lot of outlets on a circuit... what is everyones experience there?

 

[Stuart in MN]

The general rule is that all 120vac circuits in a garage need GFCI protection, but it depends on what cycle of the NEC is used in your area, and if there are any local or state exceptions to the code. I'd check with the city engineering department to make sure.

Using a GFCI receptacle as the first one in a string is going to be less expensive than using GFCI breakers in the panel, but a lot depends on personal preference - it can be a lot more convenient to reset if you only have to go to the panel, instead of searching around for the first GFCI.

 

[Mustang51js]

sweet! that makes it easy.

the 110 GFCI, does that include lighting and garage door opener? (lighting are going to be plug in florescent lamps). is it better/easier/more cost effective to have the breaker be gfci if i plan on having several outlets on a circuit? i understand phantom tripping can happen if you have a lot of outlets on a circuit... what is everyones experience there?

Some guys will say everything needs a gfci, but I can tell you I've never put a garage door opener outlet or the lighting on a gfi and have never failed for it. Normally anything above 8 feet is inaccessible

 

[Norcal]

Some guys will say everything needs a gfci, but I can tell you I've never put a garage door opener outlet or the lighting on a gfi and have never failed for it. Normally anything above 8 feet is inaccessible

Depending on which code cycle your on will tell if you do bad work or good work, If 2005 or older then not required, 2008 & current have removed most exceptions to GFCI requirements.

1) Just because a inspector passes it does not make it correct.

2) The exceptions to GFCI requirements are going away with every new edition & more areas are being added.

 

[GYPSY400]

Here in Canada only the outdoor plugs need GFCI.. and if you wire the first plug in the circuit with it, they are all protected.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk

 

[jmarkwolf]

I just recently went through this a month ago, on my new detached garage.

I put all general use and easily accessible 110V wall outlets on GFCI's.

I also have outlets on the ceiling for shop lights. The inspector approved it and said he regards it as "lighting" not "outlets".

He only checked a couple wall outlets for GFCI operation then "assumed" I got the rest right.

 

[hoffman912]

Thanks, how did you tackle the garage door opener? GFCI or not?

another question?
i plan on having the walls covered in dry wall and insulated -stapled romex ok, or does it need conduit?

the ceiling will not be strong enough to support a ceiling and will be open beam (we are talking a 100 y/o stick garage). will i need conduit running along the 2x6 beams, or can that be stapled romex?

 

[Mustang51js]

Romex can be stapled for everything. I wouldn't put the door opener on a gfci so there's no nuisence trips. I still don't see the point of gfci in garages anyway but I guess for people running extension cords outside. There's normally no water in a garage. Just make sure any romex stapled isn't exposed where it could be damaged.

 

[pattenp]

The possible presents of water in a garage is not the key issue driving the need of gfci outlets in a garage. The main fact is you are standing in direct contact with concrete on grade which make you a good path to ground.

Romex can be stapled for everything. I wouldn't put the door opener on a gfci so there's no nuisence trips. I still don't see the point of gfci in garages anyway but I guess for people running extension cords outside. There's normally no water in a garage. Just make sure any romex stapled isn't exposed where it could be damaged.

 

[Mustang51js]

The possible presents of water in a garage is not the key issue driving the need of gfci outlets in a garage. The main fact is you are standing in direct contact with concrete on grade which make you a good path to ground.

I guess I can see that but then you think about a basement and if you finish the walls you don't need gfci protection even if you leave the floor as concrete.

 

[pattenp]

Yeah the basement is an odd egg. If finished as habitable space then the gfci is not required. So you'd think the floor being left as bare concrete would be a reason for requiring gfci outlets regardless of the area being finished as habitable space. The code leans toward what the area will possibly be used for when unfinished. I guess it's more likely you will use things such as hand power tools in an unfinished basement vs. a finished one.

I guess I can see that but then you think about a basement and if you finish the walls you don't need gfci protection even if you leave the floor as concrete.

 

[hoffman912]

so.. if i put dry wall in, and VCT in the garage, would that be considered finished and not require GFCI? (no thats not a serious question)

 

[hoffman912]

what are people doing for up top for garage door openers? are people putting those on GFCI? I have read that a)GFCIs have to be with in reach (which makes the garage door opener a challenge) and b) its not required (which i dont believe), and c) its required but trips the gfci all the time which is a PITA.

so whats the best solution?

 

[pattenp]

By NEC, all outlets in a garage are to be gfci protected. Even the ones on the ceiling being used for GDO's. My GDO's ceiling outlets are on a gfci protected circuit from an gfci outlet that's down on the wall. I have never once had the GDO trip the gfci outlet.

Edit: To get around the gfci outlet for the GDO is to hardwire the GDO.

what are people doing for up top for garage door openers? are people putting those on GFCI? I have read that a)GFCIs have to be with in reach (which makes the garage door opener a challenge) and b) its not required (which i dont believe), and c) its required but trips the gfci all the time which is a PITA.

so whats the best solution?

 

[Mustang51js]

what are people doing for up top for garage door openers? are people putting those on GFCI? I have read that a)GFCIs have to be with in reach (which makes the garage door opener a challenge) and b) its not required (which i dont believe), and c) its required but trips the gfci all the time which is a PITA.

so whats the best solution?

Depends on if you want to waste money on gfci or not. I do this every day and I can say it's been a long time since I've seen a gdo on a gfi. Code says all outlets but then inspectors say anything above 8 feet it's not accessible and don't want gfi outlets that high,so if you are going to do it then use a gfi breaker or come off a wall outlet. If I'm doing a new garage I would run from breaker to door opener outlets and then down to wall outlets with the gfci on the first lower outlet.

 

[hoffman912]

wait.. so then the gdo wouldnt be on GFCI? i thought the GFCI had to be 1st in the circuit after the breaker?

I am also planning on putting an attic fan up highin the gable to push hot air out over the summer.. not sure what would be best there?

 

[Mustang51js]

wait.. so then the gdo wouldnt be on GFCI? i thought the GFCI had to be 1st in the circuit after the breaker?

I am also planning on putting an attic fan up highin the gable to push hot air out over the summer.. not sure what would be best there?

I don't put the gdo on gfci,but legally in the code it's supposed to be since it's an outlet. I don't have my code book to see if the 8 foot is an exception but I know it's what we go by here. As far as the attic fan that doesn't need to be on a gfci,some people will put a switch next to it to turn it off but I wire wire into the t-stat. You could put it on with the lighting circuit since they only draw an amp or two.

 

[hoffman912]

so for lighting I am planing four 4 bulb t8 fixtures run across each beam (i have four beams across the top). The fixtures will be daisey chained in one series to an outlet at the end of each beam (so 4 fixtures plugged into one outlet x4 = 16 total fixtures in 4 total outlets). the plan was to have this all on one switch. all lighting on one dedicated 20 amp circut, separate from garage door opener or wall or any other ceiling outlets.

here is the fixture i am planning on getting
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia...ty-Fluorescent-Shoplight-1284GRD-RE/202968125


i might split that into two circuits since 32w/120 = .26 x 4 (bulbs ea) = 1.067 amps per. 1.067 x 16 fixtures = 17.067 amps total.. which is one over 80% of a 20 amp circuit.

if i do them all on one, i will need the fan separate.

 

[6speed]

what are people doing for up top for garage door openers? are people putting those on GFCI? I have read that a)GFCIs have to be with in reach (which makes the garage door opener a challenge) and b) its not required (which i dont believe), and c) its required but trips the gfci all the time which is a PITA.

so whats the best solution?

You may protect those ceiling or otherwise 'not-easily-accessible' receptacles on the load side of a readily accessible GFCI receptacle, or accessible GFCI dead front.

If you want your GDOs on an isolated circuit (perhaps so that you may put it on a backup generator panel) then you can also use a GFCI breaker.

They want these things readily accessible not only so that they can be reset when tripped, but so that they will be religiously tested once a month by the lazy homeowner.

I have my GDOs on a separate circuit protected by a GFCI breaker. I used surge protected receptacles in the ceiling labeled GFCI protected. (Yes, I had to replace some fried boards after one nasty storm because the openers weren't surge protected... ). Haven't had any nuisance tripping at all.

Side note: When I had my garage floor refinished, I noticed they preferred plugging their grinder/vac in the ceiling GDO receptacles, despite many available receptacles along all the walls... I guess the cord in the air makes floor work easier. So the fact that the receptacle is in the garage ceiling and therefore does not require GFCI protection (because the thinking is nothing plugged up there will ever touch the ground) is probably contrary to the intentions of the current codes. As for GDOs being GFCI protected, quite possibly, if your garage doors are aluminum clad, wet from rain splashing on the outside, and all the hardware attaching the doors to the track and the opener mechanisms are conductive, everything could become live, and there would be a potential electrical pathway to ground through the door/tracks.

 

[pattenp]

There is no exception in the NEC for outlets above 8' in a garage not having to be gfci protected.