No ground outlet

[FMC1959]

I am sure this has been discussed, but I did some searches and could not find my exact situation.

I have a very old house. I would say about a third of the outlets are 2 wire and no ground. In some instances, it is possible to run a ground to the outlet. Where it is not easy without ripping out the wall, can replacing the standard receptacle with a GFCI work? Would the GFCI cover all the safety needs that a ground does, and is it legal according to code? How would the GFCI be wired, just black to hot, white to neutral and leave the ground lug empty? GFCI's typically cover outlet downstream, in this case would it also cover downstream outlets with no ground?

 

[rlitman]

... can replacing the standard receptacle with a GFCI work? Would the GFCI cover all the safety needs that a ground does, and is it legal according to code? How would the GFCI be wired, just black to hot, white to neutral and leave the ground lug empty? GFCI's typically cover outlet downstream, in this case would it also cover downstream outlets with no ground?

Yes. Yes. Exactly. GFCIs only protect downstream outlets when those are wired via the "load" connections. If you do that, you can install standard grounded outlets on the downstream protected side, provided you place the stickers on them that state they are GFCI protected.

 

[cgrutt]

Im not an electrician but understand the GFCI will work without having a ground and will offer protection to downstream ungrounded outlets if wired properly. It won't provide a true ground path however so equipment plugged into those outlets will still not have a ground pathway if there's internal fault.

 

[FMC1959]

Im not an electrician but understand the GFCI will work without having a ground and will offer protection to downstream ungrounded outlets if wired properly. It won't provide a true ground path however so equipment plugged into those outlets will still not have a ground pathway if there's internal fault.

"however so equipment plugged into those outlets will still not have a ground pathway if there's internal fault." OK, so what does this mean regarding safety for people and the equipment.

 

[rlitman]

"however so equipment plugged into those outlets will still not have a ground pathway if there's internal fault." OK, so what does this mean regarding safety for people and the equipment.

Absolutely nothing. You're 100% safer with a GFCI protected ungrounded appliance than a grounded appliance without GFCI protection.

 

[cgrutt]

"however so equipment plugged into those outlets will still not have a ground pathway if there's internal fault." OK, so what does this mean regarding safety for people and the equipment.

People would likely be protected from severe shock. Equipment, esp sensitive electronics e.g. tvs, computers, cameras, alarms, etc may not be protected from electrical surges. Built in surge suppression etc may not work. All I was saying is installing a GFCI on ungrounded outlets doesn't provide a ground pathway.

 

[rlitman]

People would likely be protected from severe shock. Equipment, esp sensitive electronics e.g. tvs, computers, cameras, alarms, etc may not be protected from electrical surges. Built in surge suppression etc may not work. All I was saying is installing a GFCI on ungrounded outlets doesn't provide a ground pathway.

Right. 2/3 of a surge protector's ability would be cut off by removing the ground path (because you lose the L-G and N-G pathways, but you do still have the L-N path). It's not remotely a life safety issue, and if you have surge protection at the panel it probably doesn't even matter, but yes, without a good ground path, a surge strip doesn't work very well.

 

[cgrutt]

Right. 2/3 of a surge protector's ability would be cut off by removing the ground path (because you lose the L-G and N-G pathways, but you do still have the L-N path). It's not remotely a life safety issue, and if you have surge protection at the panel it probably doesn't even matter, but yes, without a good ground path, a surge strip doesn't work very well.

I never said it was a life safety issue and stated it would provide GFCI protection to downstream outlets.

 

[theoldwizard1]

It won't provide a true ground path however so equipment plugged into those outlets will still not have a ground pathway if there's internal fault.

First, the original purpose of the ground wire was so if the appliance shorted the hot to the case (think toaster) and you touched the case, YOU did not become the "path of least resistance" to ground !

Second, (at least in theory) a GFCI works by comparing the amount of CURRENT going through the "hot" lead and then returning on the neutral lead. It trips if they are different. So if a person provides a path to ground, then some current will not be on the return lead.

 

[FMC1959]

Thanks to all, I just wanted to be sure it would be safe.

 

[Wrench97]

In most normal outlets around your home how many 3 prong devices do you have plugged in?

 

[FMC1959]

In most normal outlets around your home how many 3 prong devices do you have plugged in?

At least a dozen, why? BTW, all my ungrounded outlets are 3 prong, just no ground wire connection.

 

[Wrench97]

If the device is not 3 prong don't worry about the ground it doesn't need or use one.
If you are using it for A/C window units or grounded computer equipment I would run a new wire with a ground or install a new outlet as older homes never have enough outlets per room normally.

 

[Meursault74]

Did you check if they were grounded through the metal conduit?

 

[FMC1959]

If the device is not 3 prong don't worry about the ground it doesn't need or use one.
If you are using it for A/C window units or grounded computer equipment I would run a new wire with a ground or install a new outlet as older homes never have enough outlets per room normally.

My walls are sometimes sheetrock, otherwise plaster, on lathe and a sub panel of 1" think wood. Many walls have shredded newspaper for insulation. Like I stated at the outset, I would add a wire if it was not very complicated.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Absolutely nothing. You're 100% safer with a GFCI protected ungrounded appliance than a grounded appliance without GFCI protection.

Not always true. equipment that needs a ground wire to function properly such as a surge arrestor, UPS etc, will not work properly or be 100% safer with a GFCI vs a properly grounded receptacle.

 

[walta]

I would add a wire if it was not very complicated.

I am not the code expert but from what I understand, adding a single grounding conductor wire and still using the existing wires for hot and neutral is technically possible in a code compliant way it is almost impossible to actually make it happen.

I think the rules require the new wire to follow the same path as the original within a few inches. Finding single conductor wire that is rated for use outside of conduit seems unlikely. Maybe one of the expert will tell us more.

If I misunderstood and your plan is to abandon /replace the old cable and bring that circuit up to the current code that is a much better plan.

Walta

 

[FMC1959]

Did you check if they were grounded through the metal conduit?

I used a 3 light tester and they have typically been quite reliable for testing outlets

 

[FMC1959]

Not always true. equipment that needs a ground wire to function properly such as a surge arrestor, UPS etc, will not work properly or be 100% safer with a GFCI vs a properly grounded receptacle.

Surge arrestor. I have an APC, 10 foot cord and decent features, I would say medium duty. Plugged into a GFCI outlet that does not have a ground. It will work as a power bar, but the surge arrestor protection is lost, is that what you are saying?

 

[mm08822]

Surge arrestor. I have an APC, 10 foot cord and decent features, I would say medium duty. Plugged into a GFCI outlet that does not have a ground. It will work as a power bar, but the surge arrestor protection is lost, is that what you are saying?

There would only be protection between hot and neutral.

Nothing between hot - grd or neutral to grd.

 

[FMC1959]

There would only be protection between hot and neutral.

Nothing between hot - grd or neutral to grd.

What does this mean in layman terms?

 

[FMC1959]

What does this mean in layman terms?

To me a surge suppressor is supposed to save delicate equipment from electrical spikes or surges when there are power failures, or when the power flickers. So how does this translate to "There would only be protection between hot and neutral. Nothing between hot - grd or neutral to grd." I understand the very basic concept of a surge when power comes back on, what you say hot & neutral & grd ,I do not understand. The equipment is protected or it is not protected?

 

[cgrutt]

To me a surge suppressor is supposed to save delicate equipment from electrical spikes or surges when there are power failures, or when the power flickers. So how does this translate to "There would only be protection between hot and neutral. Nothing between hot - grd or neutral to grd." I understand the very basic concept of a surge when power comes back on, what you say hot & neutral & grd ,I do not understand. The equipment is protected or it is not protected?

Sorry but it depends. Generally, surge protectors work by diverting voltage spikes (from lightening, etc) to ground, so with no ground your sensitive electronics may not be protected. Believe specialized surge protectors are available that divert surges through neutral wire but not sure how effective these are. UPS systems may absorb small surges but generally believe these often require equipment ground as well.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Surge arrestor. I have an APC, 10 foot cord and decent features, I would say medium duty. Plugged into a GFCI outlet that does not have a ground. It will work as a power bar, but the surge arrestor protection is lost, is that what you are saying?

If there is a surge, it wont be able to shunt it to grnd.

This is why surge arrestors, UPSs etc typically have a building wiring fault indicator on them to alert you to an issue with the grnd connection on the receptacle.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

To me a surge suppressor is supposed to save delicate equipment from electrical spikes or surges when there are power failures, or when the power flickers. So how does this translate to "There would only be protection between hot and neutral. Nothing between hot - grd or neutral to grd." I understand the very basic concept of a surge when power comes back on, what you say hot & neutral & grd ,I do not understand. The equipment is protected or it is not protected?

Theres several protections in a UPS and surge arrestor. Thats why he stated that

 

[FMC1959]

OK, all good to know information. Anything sensitive that really needs a surge protector, I will make sure it is on a properly grounded outlet. Anything ungrounded, I will install GFCI's and only plug in stuff that is either not sensitive or not expensive if it gets blown., like fans, lights, radios, ...etc.