No more snap-on for me
- Thread starter bsaint
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I have a few Snap On tools. They loosen/tighten fasteners like my other tools. I don’t get truck service either- What else am I missing? I use some Snap On but apparently am missing out on something I don’t know about.
If you want to compare apples to apples then Williams = Proto and Snap-on = Mac. We can debate which brand has what percent USA made but I think think you are not taking into account the Blackhawk line which is under the proto label that is pretty much mostly off shore now. Either way Proto and Williams along with Wright can usually be purchased thru industrial supply like grainger and zoro. You will not find Mac or snap-on for sale at any store. Mac does however have more cross over from current Proto then snap-on does with Williams.
FYI a Toyota and Lexus are not the same. You can tell your self all you want that your Toyota is a Lexus but it’s not. A Lexus has more refinement than a Toyota. Sure both function but you will get more gadgets and a better user experience with the Lexus. Most tech is rolled out first to Lexus then to the Toyota.
How many of these better Taiwan tools utilized processes and designs snap-on patented years ago? Flank drive?????
putergod
Well-known member
This post is so full of fallacy that I don't even know where to begin... but I'll wing in.
Blackhawk is to Proto what Williams is to Snap-On.
MAC is just Proto with a truck delivery service - and still cheaper than Snap-On (though not by as much).
MAC is marketed towards automotive, like Snap-On. Proto is marketed towards industry, like Wright. However, a wrench is a wrench and a socket is a socket. The marketed industry is irrelevant. The only relevancy there is that Mac and Snap-On have automotive specific tools that Proto does not. In those instances, I look at Snap-On and Mac. But to say "Proto = Williams" is just plain STUPID and shows us that you are nothing but a Snap-On fanboi that can't be reasoned with.
You are also incorrect about the Toyota/Lexus comparison. Are SOME Lexus models a little more upscale? Sure, a little. Not enough to make up the price difference... However, there's plenty others that are LITERALLY nothing more than a badge. Case in point - My sister and Bro-In-Law ran a repo company in the ATL GA area. On their lot, at the same time, was a Lexus SUV and a Toyota SUV (same year). I went over both of these vehicles very carefully and they were 100% IDENTICAL. NOTHING was different except for the badges. NOTHING!!!!!! Well, the MSRP was certainly different.. but that's a given.
Lol now we resort to name calling to prove our point. Yeah that will help. Blackhawk would be equivalent to blue point being they are both lower cost options. Either way a socket is not exactly a socket there are differences. Wall thickness, broaching, chamfering on the socket or ratchet side, stamping vs laser etching. But yes all sockets do virtually the same function. Some just make your life easier. Snap-on fanboy I’m ok that I like nice tools and have the means to purchase them. I busted my knuckles enough in my youth to realize my knuckles are worth the money of quality tools. Until snap-on quality begins to let me down I will continue to purchase them. It is not to say it is the only name in my box but they are usually the first option for me.
As for the Lexus Toyota debate You said yourself there are difference between Lexus and Toyota but you don’t feel the difference is worth the increased price. Just because you don’t think the difference is worth the price does not mean everyone agrees with you as you can tell by the amount of Lexus sold. So which model SUV and model year did you expertly go over and determine they are identical?
putergod
Well-known member
Again, you were comparing a high end predominantly American made tool to a predominately Taiwanese made tool. So again, just fanboism and not reality. Especially since Proto isn't marketed to the automotive sector but to the industrial sector, where it is the preferred tool.
As far as the SUV, that was back in like 2002-2003, so I don't remember the specifics. And I said SOME, certainly not a blanket. Only the highest level models of Lexus are actually "more refined", albeit barely, and debatable at that, than their Toyota counterparts.
A flagship Toyota IS nicer then a entry level Lexus
This logic is flawed, stop
Also you've got to be kidding about comparing prices. You already stated there's a unknown best friends only pricing
Unless you're willing to provide invoices for pricing then assumptions or list price are used
_____
I should be clear, I like snap on, I like high quality things, I will pay full price/above market/hunt for years to get those things.
What I don't like is the secret pricing+interest gouging predatory tactics
Just give me the real price, I don't want to be buddies and go to the ball game...
This logic is flawed, stop
Also you've got to be kidding about comparing prices. You already stated there's a unknown best friends only pricing
Unless you're willing to provide invoices for pricing then assumptions or list price are used
_____
I should be clear, I like snap on, I like high quality things, I will pay full price/above market/hunt for years to get those things.
What I don't like is the secret pricing+interest gouging predatory tactics
Just give me the real price, I don't want to be buddies and go to the ball game...
putergod
Well-known member
And Expert = Bluepoint
Blackhawk = Williams
Proto = Snap-On
Mac is not sold by Proto
Proto is not sold by Mac
Some Mac and Proto tools are the same tool, but the brands are marketed differently.
Expert and Blackhawk are sold by Proto
Bluepoint and Williams are sold by Snap-On
Learn about the competition before trying to discredit it.
Please - why don't you try NOT winging in.
You're just spouting a bunch of opinions vs. his opinions - there's nothing "proving him wrong" in any of that.
Your example of the Lexus/Toyota thing is, at best, an exaggeration. There is LITERALLY a large number of differences beyond the badge. The simple proof of that is that Lexus historically has a better warranty/service rate than Toyota (both are good). But whatever.
Agree to disagree or this thread will close.
bob15
Well-known member
Is Proto really US? They have been caught twice by the FTC for saying they were made in the States and were in fact not. What makes you think they won't try it again for a 3rd time? I no longer trust Stanley/Proto and would rather buy from SK or Wright before Proto.
putergod
Well-known member
Literally the ONLY thing in my post that is "opinion" is this: "Not enough to make up the price difference..."
bob15
Well-known member
You forget that Snap On also has a large industrial/factory presence, well beyond Williams. So how does that fit into your analogy?
putergod
Well-known member
Yes, they are.
Do they have some tools made in Asia (or elsewhere)? Yes. So does Snap-On. So does Mac. Even SK has a couple (VERY few, but a couple - though I see that changing with the recent buy-out). The only well known manufacturers that I know of that make none of their tools in other countries are Wright and Lang. Wilde may be one too, but I'm not sure about that. Wright does sell tools that aren't made in USA, but they are not branded Wright, and are clearly marked in their catalog.
putergod
Well-known member
Relevancy? I was pointing out what the brands were MARKETED to. That's not opinion, it's fact. Lots of mechanics have Wright and Proto tools too... does that mean automotive is their primary market? No.
I think you need to look up the definition of the word "literally"
putergod
Well-known member
I think you need to look up the definition of the word "opinion", then you can swing by and recheck "literally".
However, to appease the mods, I will not respond to your nonsense any longer.
If you were anything close to right, you wouldn't have to appease the mods
wreckdiver1321
Well-known member
I'm going to attempt to somewhat steer this thread back out of the muck...
I've used a variety of tools from different mfgs during my wrenching experience. My brother-in-law used to be a mechanic, so he has a shop full of Snap-On tools. While I don't dismiss their quality and longevity (he's had most of it going on 20 years at this point), I think it really depends on your use case or how much of a value proposition the Snap-On name is for you.
My brother (not in-law) works in the medical field, but he likes to be good with money and do his own maintenance on things. He's no mechanic or even all that handy, but some basic tools are a necessity. I told him to go buy a set of Stanley or Kobalt wrenches and a matching socket set. They're good value, and he's not going to ever break them with his use.
I am a DIY wrencher and home-improvement guy, so I aim for the middle in most cases. I have Kobalt ratchets, which I have found to be excellent for the price. I have Craftsman sockets, which I am replacing with Ko-Ken. I am planning on replacing my hodgepodge wrench sets with Wright (SAE) and Hazet (metric). I have Vessel screwdrivers. Middle of the road stuff. Good value for money and will hold up more or less forever to some abuse.
A friend of mine is a diesel mechanic. He only buys tool truck tools. Matco, Mac, and Snap-On, depending on the tool. His tools are worth more than my entire shop. He sees the value in the upscale brands because they've proven themselves to him over many years of hard use. I don't think it's a ridiculous sentiment, he makes a good living with his brain and his tools.
My brother might use a 10mm socket once every other year. I might use mine once or twice a month. My friend uses his once or twice before lunch every day. It's not worth it to me to have a toolbox full of Snap-On, but to some people it is. Arguing about their worth or value is pointless because in the end, you decide what you do with your money. Who cares how someone else spends it? The market will determine if the company you think is over-charging is worth the prices they ask. If you gave me and two of my friends $100k and told us to buy a new SUV, one friend would end up with a Porsche Cayenne. I'd end up with a certified pre-owned and heavily modified Toyota Land Cruiser. My other friend would end up with a mid-2000's Ford Expedition and $90,000 cash. They're just three ways to accomplish the same thing in very different ways. Upscale, workhorse, entry-level. There's room for everyone in the pool, regardless of your feelings on how they cost.
/rant
I've used a variety of tools from different mfgs during my wrenching experience. My brother-in-law used to be a mechanic, so he has a shop full of Snap-On tools. While I don't dismiss their quality and longevity (he's had most of it going on 20 years at this point), I think it really depends on your use case or how much of a value proposition the Snap-On name is for you.
My brother (not in-law) works in the medical field, but he likes to be good with money and do his own maintenance on things. He's no mechanic or even all that handy, but some basic tools are a necessity. I told him to go buy a set of Stanley or Kobalt wrenches and a matching socket set. They're good value, and he's not going to ever break them with his use.
I am a DIY wrencher and home-improvement guy, so I aim for the middle in most cases. I have Kobalt ratchets, which I have found to be excellent for the price. I have Craftsman sockets, which I am replacing with Ko-Ken. I am planning on replacing my hodgepodge wrench sets with Wright (SAE) and Hazet (metric). I have Vessel screwdrivers. Middle of the road stuff. Good value for money and will hold up more or less forever to some abuse.
A friend of mine is a diesel mechanic. He only buys tool truck tools. Matco, Mac, and Snap-On, depending on the tool. His tools are worth more than my entire shop. He sees the value in the upscale brands because they've proven themselves to him over many years of hard use. I don't think it's a ridiculous sentiment, he makes a good living with his brain and his tools.
My brother might use a 10mm socket once every other year. I might use mine once or twice a month. My friend uses his once or twice before lunch every day. It's not worth it to me to have a toolbox full of Snap-On, but to some people it is. Arguing about their worth or value is pointless because in the end, you decide what you do with your money. Who cares how someone else spends it? The market will determine if the company you think is over-charging is worth the prices they ask. If you gave me and two of my friends $100k and told us to buy a new SUV, one friend would end up with a Porsche Cayenne. I'd end up with a certified pre-owned and heavily modified Toyota Land Cruiser. My other friend would end up with a mid-2000's Ford Expedition and $90,000 cash. They're just three ways to accomplish the same thing in very different ways. Upscale, workhorse, entry-level. There's room for everyone in the pool, regardless of your feelings on how they cost.
/rant
bob15
Well-known member
You are missing the point, Proto/Stanley said they were US-made, when they weren't; and were subsequently fined twice by the FTC for making false claims over a 7 year period. These were tools labeled USA, when in fact they weren't made in the States.
bob15
Well-known member
You are kinda off-base with Snap On. Snappy's auto segment brought in 494 million and their industrial sales (Snap On, not Williams) brought in about 365 million, so is the auto market their primary market area? Not really, especially if you are trying to compare them with Mac which has basically zero industrial presence.
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
Got part of a junk rebuild kit from my driver today to use as a finger spinner for 1/4 sockets. Freebie off the snap-on truck baby! Absolutely made my day, I offered $5 for it, as it was perfect in size for what I was looking for. I might be spending some cash in the future - He mentioned to me about an under-box sliding tray for bulk stuff. Very interested in that. Not lockable though, so I'm thinking mostly consumables.
All the tool guys say I'm "weird" or "different", not in a bad way. Pay in full 99% of the time, always wanting weird stuff from the catalog. More than 1 driver has told me that he orders 2 of every odd item I request. Says they always sell quickly, so I guess I have good taste.
putergod
Well-known member
In 1999, Stanley, along with Honda America, Kubota, and several others, were fined for SOME products labeled "Made in USA" not being "virtually all", i.e. contained enough foreign content to violate the FTC definition.
Major U.S. Manufacturers Agree to Settle Charges of Making Misleading "Made in USA" Claims
The Federal Trade Commission today announced settlements with six companies that would resolve allegations that the companies made misleading "Made in USA" claims for a variety of products.
FTC Alleges Stanley Made False Made in the USA Claims About Its Tools
The Stanley Works, a U.S. toolmaker, will pay a $205,000 civil penalty to settle Federal Trade Commission charges it falsely claimed its Zero Degree ratchets were Made in the USA.
There's a plethora of companies that have been fined for the same thing, mainly because having all or virtually all US content is extremely hard to nearly impossible nowadays. So, you are correct on the fines (except saying it was Proto, instead of just pointing out the parent company), but you are partially incorrect in the "in fact weren't made in the states" comment.
I don't know what your endgame is, but to say "Proto isn't made in US" because of those two incidents is just foolish. Sure, they were wrong in those two incidents, but you act like a company having a product or two fail to meet the FTC designation isn't common occurrence. Willing to bet even Snap-On has violated that definition a time or two - just never been caught. Guarantee SBD is being monitored closely until at least 2026 based on the wording of the second FTC article.
Edit: They could have just said "Made in USA with Global Components" and it would have been sufficient for the FTC, and for many "Made in USA" consumers like myself.
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putergod
Well-known member
I used them as an analogy and someone clearly got upset about it and started an argument over it. No worries. That's over with now.. hopefully...
I don't have an issue with Snap-On warranty just without a driver it's no faster than anyone else.
Also Lexus is overall better than Toyota. Just watch the history of the Camry XV10. Toyota keeps tech and features for Lexus line and withholds them from the Toyota line. I really like Toyota, Lexus even Scions.
Also Lexus is overall better than Toyota. Just watch the history of the Camry XV10. Toyota keeps tech and features for Lexus line and withholds them from the Toyota line. I really like Toyota, Lexus even Scions.
putergod
Well-known member
Even with a driver there's a real possibility of having to wait. Maybe it's not on his truck. Maybe his area is large and he can't get to you every day. Maybe he's sick and can't work. All kinds of reasons. But I will agree that most of the time it's faster.
BlakeTheCarGuy
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I was happy today my driver showed up to fix my ratchet and some of my coworkers torx bit sockets. He comes on Thursdays well Friday my friend broke my long 1/4 at 5:30pm and I wasn’t going to bother him then so we both asked today and he showed up after his last stop and took care of us. Told my coworker that broke it don’t use 1/4 on belt tensioners anymore lol. I was happy I didn’t have to wait till Thursday for it. And I bought a angle die grinder Blue Point brand from him since I needed another one and he showed up so yeah I’m happy all the way around with it. Now if you don’t have a regular driver than yeah definitely could take the same time as any other brand. And I’ve heard sometimes Snap-on themselves gives issues over warranty especially if you don’t have proof that you are the original owner.
Finance Guy
Well-known member
Snap-On does not provide this level of disclosure ... where are you getting these numbers?
Snap-On has three reportable segments, two of which are auto-related. The two auto-related segments comprised 74% of sales in 2020, and 79% of operating income.
So ... absolutely, the auto market is unquestionably Snap-On's primary market area.
Tekton is almost certainly faster than SO without a driver, and probably often faster than a driver. I have a NAPA 7 minutes from my house, and at least 4 more in 15 min. or so. Their walk-in-and-trade-out works would to be pretty fast in most cases. My NAPAs can get most things to me or the store within 48 hours, often next-day. HF isn't quite that convenient - despite being hypothetically walk-in-and-trade-out, I don't think it's quite as seamless or natural as what NAPA does. But still probably fast-ish if you have one reasonably close.
All of those are likely to be faster than Snap On. I don't think most home-gamers have as much in the way of spares/backup (though probably like most folks here, I have a sorta stupid amount of tools for a DIY guy), and being "stuck" in a project has a different impact (that's pretty inconvenient).
I doubt the speed of all those guys makes a difference to any working pro, who probably values the comes-to-me as much as anything, and has spares/other tech's tools to cover in the meantime.
I guess I'm just saying the warranty thing with Snap On doesn't seem to be about speed.
Some clueless people in this thread still spreading the myth that most of the purchasing price goes into the tool truck guys pocket because "it's an expensive business to run". I've said it before and I'll keep saying it. Roughly 25% of catalog sales (no-show/promo packs) is actual profit and that's BEFORE their overhead. Most of that $160 ratchet price tag goes into Snap-ons bank account. Not the dealers, not to mention whatever they're fleecing the dealer for in interest on loans because most can't afford their inventory in cash. Meanwhile it probably cost Snap-on about $25 to make, package, and ship that $160 ratchet.
It is a very hard business model to make a good living from and the truck brands arent helping the matter with their massively jacked up prices because it makes them far more niche than they could be. When they keep raising prices for dealers make more? Sure, a bit. But they've priced themselves so high it's causing far more damage as more and more people balk at the price and buy something else.
It is a very hard business model to make a good living from and the truck brands arent helping the matter with their massively jacked up prices because it makes them far more niche than they could be. When they keep raising prices for dealers make more? Sure, a bit. But they've priced themselves so high it's causing far more damage as more and more people balk at the price and buy something else.
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Lassen Forge
Well-known member
Do they fit your hand? Do they do what you ask them to do? Do your tools put a smile on yor face when you use them?
I have tools from Williams, SO, Craftsman, Stanley, Mac, Matco, Knipex, Stanley, a couple no name chinese foundries, 3 or 4 similarly not worth naming indian metal pushers, King ****, tons of Moore, Diamond, and companies that haven't been around for numerous decades, Ford, GM, Toyota, Honda, and the companies that made them, stuff I fabbed up at home - all kinds of stuff... all of them because they do the job and fit the purpose I ask of them.
Who gives a rabid rat what BRAND the tool is, as long as it does the job? To me that is the most important thing, not whose name is on the handle or what I paid for it.
I have tools from Williams, SO, Craftsman, Stanley, Mac, Matco, Knipex, Stanley, a couple no name chinese foundries, 3 or 4 similarly not worth naming indian metal pushers, King ****, tons of Moore, Diamond, and companies that haven't been around for numerous decades, Ford, GM, Toyota, Honda, and the companies that made them, stuff I fabbed up at home - all kinds of stuff... all of them because they do the job and fit the purpose I ask of them.
Who gives a rabid rat what BRAND the tool is, as long as it does the job? To me that is the most important thing, not whose name is on the handle or what I paid for it.
racinfarmer
Well-known member
With how invested he is via this thread, he must get a quarterly handy on the truck too. Maybe even monthly.
Irimo.
Bench Vices - Vices & Clamps - Products
www.irimo.com
The Blue Point BLPMV6 vise that you are dying for is made by Irimo in Spain. It is the Irimo model 201261 which is sold for approximately 390 Euro in Spain. 390 Euro is about US$460, but Snap-On retails it at US$740.
bob15
Well-known member
Snap On is a public company which means those numbers are provided to shareholders.....try google. Took me 15 seconds to get those numbers of their financial updates.
bob15
Well-known member
It covered more Stanley companies than what you listed and it is a dirty practice.In 1999, Stanley, along with Honda America, Kubota, and several others, were fined for SOME products labeled "Made in USA" not being "virtually all", i.e. contained enough foreign content to violate the FTC definition.
In 2006, Stanley was fined for the MAC "Zero Degree Ratchet", and that alone, being not "virtually all" US content.Major U.S. Manufacturers Agree to Settle Charges of Making Misleading "Made in USA" Claims
The Federal Trade Commission today announced settlements with six companies that would resolve allegations that the companies made misleading "Made in USA" claims for a variety of products.www.ftc.gov
FTC Alleges Stanley Made False Made in the USA Claims About Its Tools
The Stanley Works, a U.S. toolmaker, will pay a $205,000 civil penalty to settle Federal Trade Commission charges it falsely claimed its Zero Degree ratchets were Made in the USA.
There's a plethora of companies that have been fined for the same thing, mainly because having all or virtually all US content is extremely hard to nearly impossible nowadays. So, you are correct on the fines (except saying it was Proto, instead of just pointing out the parent company), but you are partially incorrect in the "in fact weren't made in the states" comment.
I don't know what your endgame is, but to say "Proto isn't made in US" because of those two incidents is just foolish. Sure, they were wrong in those two incidents, but you act like a company having a product or two fail to meet the FTC designation isn't common occurrence. Willing to bet even Snap-On has violated that definition a time or two - just never been caught. Guarantee SBD is being monitored closely until at least 2026 based on the wording of the second FTC article.
Edit: They could have just said "Made in USA with Global Components" and it would have been sufficient for the FTC, and for many "Made in USA" consumers like myself.
https://www.ftc.gov/sites/default/files/documents/cases/1999/06/stanleyworkscmp.htm
There is a big difference of being made in the USA or just having the chrome polished in the States and calling it "made in USA" which is a big part of what they were doing. Not to mention being caught twice.......
I’ve made a couple warranty claims at HF. It was really easy, walk in the door with my broken tool and tell a cashier I’m needing to do a warranty exchange. Walk over get new tool and go through checkout line, they scan it and keep broken tool and I go out the door. Easy.
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
It really isn't about speed IMO. Most items have a nearly ridiculous forever warranty, even against wear. Many companies won't consider a defects/workmanship warranty on pliers with worn away teeth or a hammer that finally got a loose head. Now, this only works if you stick around in the industry and can "beat" the warranty cost. I gambled on the rebranded Malco vice-grips - if I warranty 1 worn out pair I will have actually saved money vs. buying Malco twice. I'm down to $25/per for their $125+ hammer. I picked up a brass one through them for approx. 50% more than a comparable weight USA brass hammer. But when I warranty the mushroomed and chipped away head I'm now ahead. A lube tech that buys that hammer and quits after 9 months obviously loses in that equation.
Warranty cost is built into the tool, do you gamble you can beat the warranty? Do you buy cheaper things and self-warranty? IMO the most valuable thing the trucks have to offer to most consumers is payment structures built into the price. That, and specialty tools on exclusivity agreements prior to mainstream release, and special tools they make themselves.
I have a friend who is a snap on dealer, he leaves his truck in my other friends yard because he lives in a gated community on the coast of Ct. and it is not allowed. He has been at it for 25+ years and trust me he is not hurting for cash, he wastes more money than some of you probably earn each year. A few years ago he had a Mercedes 4 door diesel probably early 2000 that he wanted to trade for some fancy Grand Cherokee with a Hemi in it. It had a check engine light and the paint was weathered even tho it only had 50K on it, so they only offered 2K for a trade on some 60K jeep. He gave it to my other friend where he stores his truck and his inventory in two shipping containers, my buddy sprayed the car, fixed the CEL and drove it for 3 years and then sold it for 8K...lol
He has a Road King that the Chrome is starting to weather from living near the ocean my friend is anxiously awaiting til he gets the bug for a new one...lol
Point of note my friend who inherits the snap on guys toys is a body man by trade and in his own shop he builds hi performance motors for snowmobiles and go carts..15 years ago the shop which is a registered LLC was geared for his own late model race cars and cars he drove on the larger circuits. This Mf'r doesn't believe in anything but snap on and their tools, and he has made a successful living using thgem.
He has a Road King that the Chrome is starting to weather from living near the ocean my friend is anxiously awaiting til he gets the bug for a new one...lol
Point of note my friend who inherits the snap on guys toys is a body man by trade and in his own shop he builds hi performance motors for snowmobiles and go carts..15 years ago the shop which is a registered LLC was geared for his own late model race cars and cars he drove on the larger circuits. This Mf'r doesn't believe in anything but snap on and their tools, and he has made a successful living using thgem.
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