Not sure why breaker keeps tripping

[vern1]

Thanks to a bunch of you guys i installed a 240v outlet in my garage

However an interesting new issue this morning. First of all a real stupid question. If a double breaker has 30 over each of single breakers, does that automatically mean its is a 60amp?

The reason i ask. Working in my garage at the moment and my supposed 60A breaker in the house keeps tripping. Not the one in my garage panel

I have my 4800w heater running which i know is 20a and i also have a 1500w bench heater, 14x32w fluorescents (450w) and 2 new halogens i just plugged in that are 1000w total. Dont know if my math is close but isnt that about 33A?

Since my breaker in the house keeps tripping when i added the halogens his morning maybe my breaker inthehouse is only 30A? The halogens would seem to roughly take my draw from 29 to 30

Thanks!

 

[e-tek]

I'm no expert, but your math looks correct. The variable (someone will confirm) is the length of the run from your house breaker to the shop, meaning it's pulling even more than the 30Amps you've calculated....

Oops - I see you say you DO have a 60 in the house....

Where's that 'eating popcorn' icon....

 

[Sureshot]

Could it be the load is not balanced between the two sides?

Also what is running in the house?

 

[vern1]

I'm no expert, but your math looks correct. The variable (someone will confirm) is the length of the run from your house breaker to the shop, meaning it's pulling even more than the 30Amps you've calculated....

Oops - I see you say you DO have a 60 in the house....

Where's that 'eating popcorn' icon....

Well thats what the breaker in the house says

 

[spruce]

If a double breaker has 30 over each of single breakers, does that automatically mean its is a 60amp?!

no, its a 30amp breaker

 

[vern1]

no, its a 30amp breaker

Damn. I was told i had 60. So the marking on the breakers arent additive?

 

[BreeStephany]

If it says 30 on it, its a 30A double pole breaker, which means that each pole is capable of handling 30A.

What size conductors do you have going from your house to shop?

 

[vern1]

If it says 30 on it, its a 30A double pole breaker, which means that each pole is capable of handling 30A.

What size conductors do you have going from your house to shop?

I am a bit confused then. So your saying it is a 60A in total ie it shouldnt trip at 30? But it is

I do not know what the conductor is. Sorry

 

[Regnar]

Im not an expert....

30 means you can run 30 amps through each leg. If you keep it all 120 volts you would have a total of 60amps to play with.

Is your heater 220v? That would mean you would have 20 amps on each leg and would leave you with 10amps on each circuit breaker for a total of 20 amps.

Your heater is drawing 40 amps total. 120 volt x 20amps = 2400 watts x 2 = 4800watts or about 40 amps being drawn out of you 60 amp total.

60 amps = 7200 watts.
7200w-4800w-1000w-1500w-450w= -550 watts. Most will tell you you do not want to go above 80% ( 5760w) of the rated circuit. I dont know where this came from by I have heard it a few times.

 

[vern1]

The 4800w heater is running on the 240v outlet i installed. The rest are running off 120v outlets

I know the 4800 heater draws 20A as thats what the specs say. I dont know abojt the others

 

[mattmankow]

Its a double pole 30a. Meaning you have 30 amps @ 220V.

 

[Regnar]

Ok then 240volts x 20 amps = 4800 watts. You only have 7200 watts total with a 30 amp 240 circuit breaker.

 

[rabidsquirrel]

I am a bit confused then. So your saying it is a 60A in total ie it shouldnt trip at 30? But it is

I do not know what the conductor is. Sorry

No. Multi-pole are rated at each pole, not the sum of all the poles. A two pole 30 amp breaker is only good for 30 amps. It will trip at anything over 30 amps, but not always instantaneously. The higher the current the faster it will trip, i.e. it may take 5 minutes to trip at 31 amps, but it should trip faster the greater the current.

 

[vern1]

No. Multi-pole are rated at each pole, not the sum of all the poles. A two pole 30 amp breaker is only good for 30 amps. It will trip at anything over 30 amps, but not always instantaneously. The higher the current the faster it will trip, i.e. it may take 5 minutes to trip at 31 amps, but it should trip faster the greater the current.

Well that makes senses as it took the breaker about 5 mins to trip when i turned on the halogens which appear to put it just over 30A draw

So is there any issue with just replacing the 30 with a 40A breaker in the house? There is a 40A breaker in my garage (it says 40above each pole)

Thanks

 

[larry_g]

Well that makes senses as it took the breaker about 5 mins to trip when i turned on the halogens which appear to put it just over 30A draw

So is there any issue with just replacing the 30 with a 40A breaker in the house? There is a 40A breaker in my garage (it says 40above each pole)

Thanks

The breaker in the house is to protect the WIRE that runs from the house to the garage. So you have to determine the wire size that is running from house to garage and that dictates the breaker you can install there.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[vern1]

The breaker in the house is to protect the WIRE that runs from the house to the garage. So you have to determine the wire size that is running from house to garage and that dictates the breaker you can install there.

lg
no neat sig line

How do i do that as i cant see any markings on the wire? The casing, if thats of any relevance is 5/8" diameter

Thanks

 

[matt151617]

What kind of wire is it? THHN that's 5/8" in diameter would be 4/0. I doubt you have that big of a wire running to the garage.

 

[vern1]

What kind of wire is it? THHN that's 5/8" in diameter would be 4/0. I doubt you have that big of a wire running to the garage.

Sorry but dont know what THHN is. The 5/8 is the casing around all the wires

 

[fancypants]

It's important to know when you're in over your head. The breaker is doing exactly what it is supposed to do. Hire an electrician.

 

[vern1]

Oh i am not suggesting i know exactly what i am doing by any means. And that is apparent from my questions. Just trying to learn

 

[Aceman]

Plain and simple, your wire out to your garage isn't big enough to handle all the equipment out there that you're running. That leaves you with two options:

1. Don't run everything simultaneously.
2. Upsize the wire and breaker feeding the garage.

If you plan on staying at this place for the long run, #2 is absolutely the way to go.

 

[rburke65]

Is the garage being fed with wires that are in a conduit? Or is the garage being fed with one cable? Underground or overhead? If in a conduit there should be some kind on nomenclature on the conductors. And the same for the outer "jacket" if it's a cable. Keep asking....keep reading......you will learn a lot here and we can solve your problem and educate you somewhat.

 

[justsam]

As has been pointed out, we need to know the gauge of the wire that is feeding the garage, to determine if your breaker is sized appropriately.

Since you said about 5/8 I suspect you are looking at Romex to the garage. Can you see how many individual conductors are in that Romex. Also if you look at the outer sheath of the Romex, can you see a designation like 10/3, or 8/3 etc?

If the wire gauge is proper, you may well be able to increase breaker size, but I suspect the orignal breaker was sized based on the wire size to the garage.

Opps, I see Mr. Burke is a faster typist!

 

[vern1]

The garage is being fed by one cable underground. I have looked at it and there are no markings

Aceman i dont know why you say the wire is not big enough as i dont know what size it is at the moment. Itz possible the wire is big enough but the breaker is not big enough right?

 

[vern1]

As has been pointed out, we need to know the gauge of the wire that is feeding the garage, to determine if your breaker is sized appropriately.

Since you said about 5/8 I suspect you are looking at Romex to the garage. Can you see how many individual conductors are in that Romex. Also if you look at the outer sheath of the Romex, can you see a designation like 10/3, or 8/3 etc?

If the wire gauge is proper, you may well be able to increase breaker size, but I suspect the orignal breaker was sized based on the wire size to the garage.

Opps, I see Mr. Burke is a faster typist!

Sorry but there are no markings on the Romex. And i cant see how many conductors are in there. Will have to take the panel off to find out

guess i will have to get an electrician in. Thanks

 

[Aceman]

The garage is being fed by one cable underground. I have looked at it and there are no markings

Aceman i dont know why you say the wire is not big enough as i dont know what size it is at the moment. Itz possible the wire is big enough but the breaker is not big enough right?

I'll level with you. The other members are trying to find out what size wire it is in the hopes it's oversized. I can tell you as an electrician, there is a very slim possibility somebody used a big wire with a smaller breaker leaving room for you to upsize the breaker and nothing else. You said it's around 5/8's, the size of 10-3 w/ground which would get a 30 amp breaker like you have.

Electricians don't routinely install big cables just to limit them with small breakers. It's a waste of money, and doesn't make sense.

 

[rburke65]

Could you possibly post a photo or 4?

 

[vern1]

I'll level with you. The other members are trying to find out what size wire it is in the hopes it's oversized. I can tell you as an electrician, there is a very slim possibility somebody used a big wire with a smaller breaker leaving room for you to upsize the breaker and nothing else. You said it's around 5/8's, the size of 10-3 w/ground which would get a 30 amp breaker like you have.

Electricians don't routinely install big cables just to limit them with small breakers. It's a waste of money, and doesn't make sense.

Yes that makes a lot of sense. However when i installed my 240 outlet i used 10/2 and this wire is much thicker overall. What would be the proper size wire to handle 40A service to my garage? And if there are no markings on the romex how can you figure out the sire size?

Sorry not trying to be a pain in the asz. Just trying to figure it out

Thanks

 

[vern1]

Could you possibly post a photo or 4?

Will try and get some tomorrow

 

[pattenp]

40A is #8. There should be marking on the outer sheathing of the cable. You need to look harder.

 

[rburke65]

Don't you just love us guys telling you "ya just have to look harder!" I know, this can be hard. Were just trying to help ya. Hang in there cupcake. It will be over soon.

 

[vern1]

40A is #8. There should be marking on the outer sheathing of the cable. You need to look harder.

Honestly i have its a flat black casing with no markings on it. Its definitely thicker than the 10/2 i used for the 240 outlet

 

[vern1]

Don't you just love us guys telling you "ya just have to look harder!" I know, this can be hard. Were just trying to help ya. Hang in there cupcake. It will be over soon.

. I am just happy for the advice. Seriously

 

[pattenp]

Honestly i have its a flat black casing with no markings on it. Its definitely thicker than the 10/2 i used for the 240 outlet

Unless you have some really old cable the marking is required, The marking may just be an impression and not a printed marking that is easily seen, A clue is the cable being black which may indicate it is larger than #10. Not a sure thing though.

 

[vern1]

Unless you have some really old cable the marking is required, The marking may just be an impression and not a printed marking that is easily seen, A clue is the cable being black which may indicate it is larger than #10. Not a sure thing though.

Well its definintely black and its definitely larger than the #10

I will look again though.....

 

[pattenp]

If you want to measure the bare copper, #8 is .1285" and #6 is .162".

 

[Zeke]

I been following this thread all day. 60A at the house is breaking. Total circuit overload or what? I guess it can be sliced and diced for the purposes of an Internet discussion, but that much heat and lighting has to be the ultimate answer.

Remember, I'm just the grasshopper.

 

[justsam]

I believe the house breaker is 30 Amp.

The original post questioned if a dual 30 was a 60. That was later clarified.

 

[Nostraquedeo]

Have you taken the panel cover off and looked closely at the wire? I only ask, since you have not indicated what part of the wire you are looking at. Taking the cover off is not a huge deal......

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Unless you have some really old cable the marking is required, The marking may just be an impression and not a printed marking that is easily seen, A clue is the cable being black which may indicate it is larger than #10. Not a sure thing though.

IIRC, black NM starts with 8ga......Also, we don't know the location of the OP, so the possible cable types are numerous!