Off-grid property, need power

[Daveyclimber]

Looking for opinions and thoughts regarding this quandary I find myself in. I have a property, small 1.4 acre lot in western Montana. It is in a subdivision however there is no local power company servicing the area. Wife and I are mulling the idea of building a modest cabin and a shop on the property. We wouldn't ever consider this but real estate is way off the charts in this area. We already own this lot so it looks like we need to make the most of it since we are priced out of the market with little to nothing available anyway.

Solar in general is off the table due to tree coverage and mountains close by that block most sun. Would be lucky to get 2-3 hrs of mediocre sun during spring and summer and little to none in the winter. Current neighbors all have generators as main production along with small arrays. But most are cobbled together systems with less than appealing generators. There is only one small area on my property that would allow some sun coverage but I'm not sure if the merits outweighs the cost and complexity of the system. I guess I'm envisioning having a stand alone shed located centrally in between my future cabin and shop and loafing shed/tackroom. The shed would store a diesel generator, battery bank, inverter(s)and distribution network supplying power to the buildings. I realize the prospect is less than ideal and expensive. Thoughts? Ideas and recommendations?

 

[infinkc]

Without sun, I would say a diesel generator with battery packs would be your best bet. Probably not the most efficient, but your options are super limited.

I’d run the generator during the day, use the battery for night.

 

[Stuart in MN]

A subdivision without electric power seems pretty unusual...is it going to be that way forever, or have they just not got it done yet? Given the situation, a generator and batteries is probably your only choice (that, or get some oil lamps.)

 

[Daveyclimber]

Been without power for decades here. It is odd. There is grid power about 5 miles away. Powering the cabin is one thing but powering a shop is another animal since the power requirements fluctuate greatly. I would most likely sell my electric welders and buy a Miller bobcat with a wire feeder. Already have a gas powered air compressor, so I guess that takes care of the most consuming devices.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

have you asked the PoCo about getting electric service?

 

[theoldwizard1]

"You can pay me now, or you can pay me later !" Solar vs diesel/gasoline/propane.

• Are you going to build it yourself or have it built ?
• How do you plan to cook, make hot water and keep warm (heat) ?
• What kind of tools are you going to have in the shop ? Hand held battery power tools ? Any large power saws, planer, etc, compressor, welder ? A separate generator for the shop is a reasonable idea.

Unless you plan on heating and cooking with wood, propane is the obvious fuel, even for the generator. Where you are at, I would want TWO good size tanks. You may have to go 3-6 months without a fill up !

If you have a small well pump (≤1/2 hp) and nothing but battery powered tools, you can actually live quite comfortably on a 3,000 watt generator. You just have to learn how to manage your loads. A larger well pump would require 240V and mean you would need at least a 5,000 watt generator. You need to do some serious research on well pumps for low power alternatives. They DO exist !

The good news is LiFePO4 battery prices keep dropping. So does the cost of inverters.

Don't give up on solar. You may have to sacrifice a few tree and it is a big investment, but it can really cut your propane bill.

 

[BillK]

How about wind ? I know there is a guy here locally that put up a small windmill generator to charge a battery bank. I will see if I can find the article.

 

[coyotehunter]

There was a magazine years ago called “home power” That I believe you can still read online that you might want to check out. It may give you some more option ideas.

 

[jbwilkins]

I would suggest your run some numbers and get with the local POCO and see what it would cost.

While the initial investment of having the POCO run power may be high, your long term cost of a generator, servicing the generator, propane, diesiel, etc. may be more. Understand, desiel, propane or whatever you power the generator with is probably not going to get any cheaper.

 

[bannerd]

I saw this the other day in NY;

https://www.ductedwind.com/

Not sure how well it works but the concept was interesting.

 

[aggie113]

See if geothermal is an option in that area. Wind turbine might get you by part of the time, rest I would put on a 500gal propane tank (in serviceable area), generator and battery bank (generator shouldn't run more than it's given duty cycles).

 

[Bert_]

You say there are several others next to you. If there is power 5 miles away I would seriously talk to the power company. Get a quote for them to extend the line. If there are several others to share the cost it might be best.

 

[bbbarracuda]

5 Miles of lines and poles, wild guess you are talking hundreds of thousands of dollars (or more) to run power. In Montana, maybe more because of rocky ground.
There is probably a reason no has done it yet.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I hesitate to share this link. Red Poppy Ranch on YouTube has done the same thing on a much larger scale. However, He is NOT the best example of how to do it.

His house is a a very typical 3 bedroom and built with all the typical appliances you would expect in a typical suburban house. I think he has replaced most of the electrical components in less than 2 years except for the solar panels and I expect that will happen this year.

Another, better example on YouTube is Wild, Wonderful, Off Grid. Even though he is a professional electrician, they have also replaced some of their solar. Swapped the Tesla battery bank for something else (less fire risk) and have just completed installing a large generator and major upgrade to their solar array.


Both of these families have the luxury of a lot of property with good sun. Because they are successful YouTubers, they also have $$$ to burn !

 

[theoldwizard1]

A larger well pump would require 240V and mean you would need at least a 5,000 watt generator. You need to do some serious research on well pumps for low power alternatives. They DO exist !

A good place to start.

Our Favorite Submersible Well Pump for Solar !

 

[dcg9381]

I don't know the specifics of your layout, but unless you're really up close to tall mountains to your south, clearing a few trees or building a structure with a south facing roof oriented correctly would help - you might have to clear trees, but not as may as a ground mount array. Even 1000 watts would really make a big difference in keeping you from running the generator frequently.

Completely agree that a generator is the way to go in this case. Choose diesel or propane - there are cold weather implications of both. I do see commercial grade generators go to auction from time to time. If it were mine, I'd build in both a primary generator and a 2nd interlock for a portable generator in case primary fails.

You can really do a lot with not much power. You just have to design for it. There are "substantial" RV refrigerators that can run on propane as well as electric.. They don't draw much gas. LED lighting... The big question in heating water - that always takes energy.

I'd design it so it could be modified... Likely you'll be figuring things out as you live there.

 

[Stuart in MN]

5 Miles of lines and poles, wild guess you are talking hundreds of thousands of dollars (or more) to run power. In Montana, maybe more because of rocky ground.
There is probably a reason no has done it yet.

Besides just the cost of the poles and wires and installation, the POCO also factors in what kind of revenue they'll receive from a service install. I'm guessing they determined this subdivision just won't be financially feasible, until there's a number of other potential clients along the way that will help justify it.

 

[AZ Pete]

for hot water: if you are heating with wood, that is easy during the heating season. Off season I would look at a propane demand water heater.

I expect that you are cooking with propane, and may have a propane refrigerator, so on demand water heater should be an easy add on.

Shop electricity, you are already talking about a Miller Bobcat, and they make pretty good power in addition to welding. Pick your fuel.

 

[Daveyclimber]

Grid power isn't going to happen, otherwise it would already be in place. It would cost millions to get it here with roughly 30 customers of which 8-10 are full time. I would have propane as a supplemental heat source and for a water heater, clothes dryer and cooking. Generator would be diesel as propane cost more in this area and they are less efficient. I envision (guessing) a 7.5kw kubota, perkins or yanmar powered unit for charging purposes and supplemental power. I did think about isolating the shop power with an as needed generator, possibly in the form of a welder. I have a few large electric welders I would sell. I have a 30 gallon gas air compressor. Other tools would be saws, drills, plasma cutter, lighting and the such. Many tools are cordless.

A well pump concerns me, wells are 300-400ft here. If a small solar array would be beneficial then that is something to consider. We don't have a consistent wind here . Air conditioning isn't needed as long as we use ceiling fans and open house windows. A wood stove and a fireplace will handle the bulk of heating. LED lighting in the shop and home sounds like a great idea. For further note, we currently are living in our travel trailer on the lot. I am a forestry contractor and work in the surrounding states. We do know how to conserve energy and the such as we have done it full time for over 2 years.

 

[vavet]

I've learned a lot from this thread already. After the storms last month, we were without power for about 3 days and had to ration our propane for the generator as we were low and the propane company wasn't delivering because of road conditions.
It was eye-opening how much fuel the 22kW generator uses. It's a significant amount - rated at 2.7GPH (IIRC) at half load and 3.8 GPH at full load. I guess the most efficient way would be to run at full load while charging a battery bank and then shut down and liev off the battery power until they need to be recharged again.
I can't imagine that level of expense for power full time, but you're more used to conserving, alternate means for heat, fridge, etc. .

 

[theoldwizard1]

You can really do a lot with not much power. You just have to design for it. There are "substantial" RV refrigerators that can run on propane as well as electric.

Stay away from the RV propane refrigerators. They are junk !

This is not to say that there are no good propane refrigerators, just don't buy one for an RV. Many RVer owners are dumping their propane refrigerators and going compressor, either 12VDC or 120VAC with inverter.

 

[Bert_]

5 Miles of lines and poles, wild guess you are talking hundreds of thousands of dollars (or more) to run power. In Montana, maybe more because of rocky ground.
There is probably a reason no has done it yet.

Yes. I deal with a similar situation often. In rural areas it's common to have single phase primary but often a site would be better off with 3 phase.

Usually the cost to rebuild lines all falls to the customer because these sites only have heavy loads for a couple months a year. $80,000 a mile is the most recent estimate I've heard. That's for the 3 phase primary.

I don't know what it would cost the OP but say $80,000 x 5 miles. 400,000 / 30 customers is only $14,000 each. Obviously there's some other costs for transformers and other equipment that will cost some money. But if you could get everyone on board I would be all over that for ~$20,000.

Even if you can only get half of the residents to go in with you, $40,000. Sounds a lot better than dealing with a generator every day.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Generator would be diesel as propane cost more in this area and they are less efficient. I envision (guessing) a 7.5kw kubota, perkins or yanmar powered unit for charging purposes and supplemental power.

So how are you going to get 100s of gallons of diesel delivered in the middle of winter ? Where are you going to store it ? Diesel and really cold temperatures are not good friends.

I would have propane as a supplemental heat source and for a water heater, clothes dryer and cooking.

Another reason for propane generator. It will push you to solar.

I did think about isolating the shop power with an as needed generator, possibly in the form of a welder. I have a few large electric welders I would sell. I have a 30 gallon gas air compressor. Other tools would be saws, drills, plasma cutter, lighting and the such. Many tools are cordless.

Welder generators are expensive. Used ones usually have been beat to death. You would likely have to add MIG/TIG. IMHO, you are better off with 7-10kw gasoline generator just for the shop (and a back up for the house) and keep what you have.[/quote]

A well pump concerns me, wells are 300-400ft here. If a small solar array would be beneficial then that is something to consider.

This is a BIG issue ! Contact Grundfos. One key feature on a deep well pump and an off-grid installation is "soft start" !

Small solar for water pump is only useful if you have a large (100s of gallons) water tank that is high enough to feed the home WITHOUT a pump.

What are you doing now for water ?

 

[yatg]

A well pump concerns me, wells are 300-400ft here.

Do you have a well drilled yet?
The cost of that will be a heart stopper.

What about septic?
Another money dump.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

400' deep well
diesel and propane at hundreds of gallons a month
septic

sounds like a money pit....

 

[theoldwizard1]

400' deep well
diesel and propane at hundreds of gallons a month
septic

sounds like a money pit....

Big investment upfront. Without solar, you are probably correct !

 

[Daveyclimber]

400' deep well
diesel and propane at hundreds of gallons a month
septic

sounds like a money pit....

No way there would be hundreds of gallons a month. Septic is easy. Cistern would likely be in place to reduce pump frequency.

 

[Daveyclimber]

Do you have a well drilled yet?
The cost of that will be a heart stopper.

What about septic?
Another money dump.

No but yeah it will cost a bunch regardless if grid powered or not.

 

[Daveyclimber]

So how are you going to get 100s of gallons of diesel delivered in the middle of winter ? Where are you going to store it ? Diesel and really cold temperatures are not good friends.


Another reason for propane generator. It will push you to solar.


Welder generators are expensive. Used ones usually have been beat to death. You would likely have to add MIG/TIG. IMHO, you are better off with 7-10kw gasoline generator just for the shop (and a back up for the house) and keep what you have.

This is a BIG issue ! Contact Grundfos. One key feature on a deep well pump and an off-grid installation is "soft start" !

Small solar for water pump is only useful if you have a large (100s of gallons) water tank that is high enough to feed the home WITHOUT a pump.

What are you doing now for water ?[/QUOTE]


I get water from a local source and pump into the trailer.

 

[Daveyclimber]

So how are you going to get 100s of gallons of diesel delivered in the middle of winter ? Where are you going to store it ? Diesel and really cold temperatures are not good friends.


Another reason for propane generator. It will push you to solar.


Welder generators are expensive. Used ones usually have been beat to death. You would likely have to add MIG/TIG. IMHO, you are better off with 7-10kw gasoline generator just for the shop (and a back up for the house) and keep what you have.

This is a BIG issue ! Contact Grundfos. One key feature on a deep well pump and an off-grid installation is "soft start" !

Small solar for water pump is only useful if you have a large (100s of gallons) water tank that is high enough to feed the home WITHOUT a pump.

What are you doing now for water ?[/QUOTE]


Diesel supply is easy, there is no reason to be pushed into solar when it is not feasible for a primary power source. I would be interested in solar for a supplemental source. Propane generators are not my thing. It doesnt get cold enough here to gel up diesel and if it did then propane issues would be worse off.

 

[472scout]

I take it that cutting down trees won't get you sun light either. Sounds freezing cold.

How much is a lot reasonably close to the grid?
How much is your lot worth?

 

[Lassen Forge]

Last time I checked it cost a quarter million a mile to have power brought in... 5 miles - probably a million and a half. Can you split it with your neighbors? Take a loan out? Get an improvement grant?

 

[Daveyclimber]

I take it that cutting down trees won't get you sun light either. Sounds freezing cold.

How much is a lot reasonably close to the grid?
How much is your lot worth?

To a degree cutting down some trees would help for solar. But we are talking pine trees and they cast a long shadow. Trees on neighboring property would be more of a issue than my trees. A comparable lot really doesn't exist in the area. People are nuts and in the last year folks have bought up about anything on the market site unseen and of course bidding g wars. RE is ridiculous right now and for the last two years really. My lot is appealing due to the fact it backs up to forest service land with river access. It's a neat area.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Dreaming ... Some numbers

Assumption #1 - Solar will happen, eventually !

Assumption #2 - The shop will only have ONE 120VAC @ 20A circuit feed from the main power. Lights, hand power tools, miter saw, 10" table saw. Anything else will have to be powered by a SEPARATE generator !

Batteries - LiFePO4. DIY battery pack. 24V (nominal), 280 Ah. (DIY means you can easily grow this.) That is 8 cells. About $100 each (plus shipping) when ordered directly from China. Battery Management System not included. Wiring/bus bars extra. Battery Monitoring System not included.

Inverter/charger - This item has lot of options ! Personally I like the idea of an inverter/charger. Most come with an automatic transfer switch (seems odd for off grid application, but potentially useful). Decent ones also come with some way to start the generator when the batteries are low and shut down when they are charged. Ignoring a well pump for now, I would want an inverter that could do AT LEAST 5,000W, peak. * 120VAC is acceptable. You could wire that to 3 or 4 15A circuits (one for the shop). Depending on how far the shop is from this power source, 10/2 might be required to get you full 20A.

Well pump - "Out of the box thinking". Separate inverter. European voltage/frequency (220VAc @ 50HZ). Grundfos pumps can run off of this (you need to verify). You can buy a Chinese 4,000W inverter for <$500. If the pump motor is truly "soft start", this should be adequate. By buying a separate inverter for the well pump, you know it will always have adequate power (assuming the batteries/generator/solar are doing their job) without having to buy a much larger inverter for the rest of the house.


You need a lot of education ! A good YouTube channel DIY Solar Power with Will Prowse. Related forum where you can ask questions DIY Solar Power Forum.


* Samlex 4000 Watt Pure Sine Inverter/Charger (4,000W/12,000W)

 

[theoldwizard1]

Diesel supply is easy,

Please explain that statement !

Diesel engine maintenance cost more than propane engine maintenance. Oil and filters are more expensive. Clogged fuel line and you are out of business. Injector rebuilds are $$$.

You may like diesel because you know it, but long term propane is more cost effective.

 

[jeepxj]

Alright i'll bite:

battery power is 1,500 per 5kwh
https://www.signaturesolar.us/products/i89128b899/2203789000007141580

Lets say the house needs 30 kwh a day. you dont need 30kwh of battery because you'll be running generator for some hours a day. Lets call it 2 cycles in a given day. so you need 15kwh of battery. or 3 of those units. 4 to be safe fair? so battery cost is 5,000

inverter/charger 8kw. $4,000.
https://www.solar-electric.com/outback-power-radian-series-inverter-gs8048a.html

misc wiring needs. another $2,000.

automatic generator start for demand/low battery state. need to find the inverter that has that option or get a module like this: could be free. could be 500.
https://www.xantrex.com/power-products/default/automatic-generator-start.aspx

Now generator sizing is up to your and your needs. I'd personally build a power shed. put the batteries in there. the inverters. the generator if its skid mounted.

i'd go 20-30kw as thats a fairly good size motor with parts around. plus you'll have plenty of excess capacity to do shop **** with it while charging the battery bank up. something like: https://www.ebay.com/itm/25KW-Singl...123710&hash=item238ecc6fe7:g:oOYAAOSw5cNYLz2W

you'd need a diesel tank for it. home heating oil tanks would work. and they're cheap.




So rough math is 12k for parts on battery. and 7k for generator. i'd ballpark at 25k mentally for making it happen.

rough fuel burn rate of 1.2GPH at 50% load. figure 12kwh per 1.2gallons. figure 2 gallons a day for battery alone on top of day time use. i'd factor 3-4 gallons daily to be safe.

 

[nadogail]

IMHO, sites like I imagine yours to be have been served well by Witte or Lister diesel plants. Neither of which are in current production; Listeroid engines are, to the best of my knowledge, still being made Inda.

Slow Speed Diesel engines work fine and are said to be durable.

Try a Google search for listeroid engines.

 

[jeepxj]

IMHO, sites like I imagine yours to be have been served well by Witte or Lister diesel plants. Neither of which are in current production; Listeroid engines are, to the best of my knowledge, still being made Inda.

Slow Speed Diesel engines work fine and are said to be durable.

Try a Google search for listeroid engines.

there used to be a guy from FL with a site about his lister from india. used it for the 3 hurricanes in 05 that had him without power for a long time. cant find it anymore.

 

[wrenchguy]

Best slow speed diesel genset for this application IMO would be a Witte. USA built into the 60's, on 10,000's farms from the 30's and still today.

 

[Daveyclimber]

Please explain that statement !

Diesel engine maintenance cost more than propane engine maintenance. Oil and filters are more expensive. Clogged fuel line and you are out of business. Injector rebuilds are $$$.

You may like diesel because you know it, but long term propane is more cost effective.

Onsite storage tank for fuel, plus a possible skid tank the generator mounts on. Fuel can be delivered on a schedule or I can transport 100 gallons worth each time I go to town. It is something I contend with regularly when working on contracts out of state. Fuel supplier does a tank and fills when called. 1000 gallons at a time.

Not real interested in a water cooled gasoline engine converted or "engineered" for propane. Much rather have a diesel generator, preferably non tier 4. Sure filters cost more and there is more oil but they have longer change intervals and the fuel would be pre filtered from the supply tank. I do have a low hour Onan 30kw propane generator but it is overkill for my intended purpose. Propane is $3 a gallon here and dye diesel is :2.25 or so. I typically work out of state in below freezing conditions. Its harder to keep my propane travel trailer appliances working than my diesel powered trucks and equipment.