Off-grid property, need power

[Daveyclimber]

IMHO, sites like I imagine yours to be have been served well by Witte or Lister diesel plants. Neither of which are in current production; Listeroid engines are, to the best of my knowledge, still being made Inda.

Slow Speed Diesel engines work fine and are said to be durable.

Try a Google search for listeroid engines.

I've seen lots of Lister generators in the area. Never heard of Witte.

 

[Daveyclimber]

Dreaming ... Some numbers

Assumption #1 - Solar will happen, eventually !

Assumption #2 - The shop will only have ONE 120VAC @ 20A circuit feed from the main power. Lights, hand power tools, miter saw, 10" table saw. Anything else will have to be powered by a SEPARATE generator !

Batteries - LiFePO4. DIY battery pack. 24V (nominal), 280 Ah. (DIY means you can easily grow this.) That is 8 cells. About $100 each (plus shipping) when ordered directly from China. Battery Management System not included. Wiring/bus bars extra. Battery Monitoring System not included.

Inverter/charger - This item has lot of options ! Personally I like the idea of an inverter/charger. Most come with an automatic transfer switch (seems odd for off grid application, but potentially useful). Decent ones also come with some way to start the generator when the batteries are low and shut down when they are charged. Ignoring a well pump for now, I would want an inverter that could do AT LEAST 5,000W, peak. * 120VAC is acceptable. You could wire that to 3 or 4 15A circuits (one for the shop). Depending on how far the shop is from this power source, 10/2 might be required to get you full 20A.

Well pump - "Out of the box thinking". Separate inverter. European voltage/frequency (220VAc @ 50HZ). Grundfos pumps can run off of this (you need to verify). You can buy a Chinese 4,000W inverter for <$500. If the pump motor is truly "soft start", this should be adequate. By buying a separate inverter for the well pump, you know it will always have adequate power (assuming the batteries/generator/solar are doing their job) without having to buy a much larger inverter for the rest of the house.


You need a lot of education ! A good YouTube channel DIY Solar Power with Will Prowse. Related forum where you can ask questions DIY Solar Power Forum.


* Samlex 4000 Watt Pure Sine Inverter/Charger (4,000W/12,000W)

Good food for thought. I have watched Will's videos and they are quite informative.

 

[13mo]

Yes. I deal with a similar situation often. In rural areas it's common to have single phase primary but often a site would be better off with 3 phase.

Usually the cost to rebuild lines all falls to the customer because these sites only have heavy loads for a couple months a year. $80,000 a mile is the most recent estimate I've heard. That's for the 3 phase primary.

I got just about the same quote from my utility when I had power run. Three phase service installation was $75k/mile. Any equipment that they had to upgrade on their end to handle the additional load would undergo review and none, some, or all of that cost would be charged to the customer, depending on how much money the utility thought they'd recoup over time.

Single phase was a whole lot less expensive as the utility expects to recoup the cost and thus doesn't charge the full installation cost up front. I paid about 1/10th as much to have single phase service run as I would have had for 3 phase service, and it would have been a really easy 3 phase install as the utility's main 3 phase distribution line runs along my fence line.

I don't know what it would cost the OP but say $80,000 x 5 miles. 400,000 / 30 customers is only $14,000 each. Obviously there's some other costs for transformers and other equipment that will cost some money. But if you could get everyone on board I would be all over that for ~$20,000.

Even if you can only get half of the residents to go in with you, $40,000. Sounds a lot better than dealing with a generator every day.

I would agree wholeheartedly with that. Getting a reasonable generator setup that you could use full-time for only $14k is a tall order, and the ongoing costs for power would be a lot less, too.

Also, regarding wells, 400' is not an unusually deep well. My well is nearly 500' deep and pretty much every well around here is over 400'. It just takes quite a deep well to get through the big shale and limestone shelf to reliably hit groundwater. Well pumps start at 1 1/2 hp, which requires about 7 kVA of generator to start. A typical well around here in the 400-500 foot range, with the drilling, casing, pump, wiring, piping, pressure tank, labor, and miscellaneous costs about $10k. Not cheap, but you need water, and it's also cheaper than what your septic will cost.

 

[firebirdparts]

5 Miles of lines and poles, wild guess you are talking hundreds of thousands of dollars (or more) to run power. In Montana, maybe more because of rocky ground.
There is probably a reason no has done it yet.

Wonder how many customers there are.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Not real interested in a water cooled gasoline engine converted or "engineered" for propane. Much rather have a diesel generator, preferably non tier 4.

Clearly you have made up your mind. You will be hating life if you run the tank dry and have to bleed the system to get it to start again.

Propane is $3 a gallon here and dye diesel is $2.25 or so. I typically work out of state in below freezing conditions.

That is about what I pay to refill my BBQ tank ! On a schedule, it should be <$2/gallon. Less if you if you are buying "off season".

Its harder to keep my propane travel trailer appliances working than my diesel powered trucks and equipment.

RV propane equipment is garbage !

If you are going to be using propane for water heating, cooking and supplemental heat, having to deal with another fuel is just more hassle.



Bottom line - If you can't get some decent solar, you can't afford to live there !

 

[Fasthotrod]

So how are you going to get 100s of gallons of diesel delivered in the middle of winter ?

I'd imagine the same way he'd get propane delivered? By a truck.

Where are you going to store it ?

I'm going to guess a diesel fuel tank. Likely double walled to meet environmental compliance. Depending on how much he wants to spend on this project, he can likely get a sub-base tank to sit under the generator... but he's looking at an industrial/commercial unit at that point.

Diesel and really cold temperatures are not good friends.

For colder climates, I'd pick a diesel over propane any day. As the temperature drops, propane fueled systems lose fuel pressure, as there is a direct correlation between temperature and pressure. (Ideal Gas Law at work: PV = nRT)



As fuel is drawn from the tank, the tank temperature will drop due to the fuel delivery to the engine, and make it even worse. So you need a large tank with a lot of surface area to absorb the ambient heat to keep the pressure up.

One way to deal with his is to bury the tank underground and use geothermal heat to keep the tank pressure up. Another way to deal with this is to use a liquid withdraw system that pulls liquid propane from the tank, and does the liquid/vapor conversion next to the generator. Using a propane vaporizor that is connected to the generator's liquid cooling system will help prevent the vaporizor from freezing up, or you can use an electric powered vaporizer... but that pulls power from the generator so you'd have to up-size the generator to account for it.

For what it's worth, I've been in the power industry for about 30 years. We have thousands of facilities all over the US and US territories... and some are in some very inhospitable conditions. Mountain top sites, prime power sites that provide 24/7 operations in Alaska that don't have access to a grid, you name it. Our prime power sites in Alaska are all diesel powered. We barge in 30k gallons of fuel per year at one site alone. We've looked at propane as a fuel source for those sites, and rejected it on numerous occasions.

We are currently researching alternate sources such as wind and solar... and that has led us to look more into running high voltage submarine cable from a grid to our sites as we cannot rely upon wind or solar in the cold winter climates at some of our sites.

Another reason for propane generator. It will push you to solar.

I'm not quite sure what one has to do with the other... I'd push for solar and a large battery bank for the day to day stuff. The generator could be started and ran when he needed 'big power' for welders and stuff like that. He could also have a battery voltage monitor that would automatically start the generator when the main batteries hit a certain low voltage limit. If the solar panels keep the batteries charged, it doesn't run. If the batteries drop below the voltage threshold, the generator starts and runs to recharge the batteries. Set the run time for however long it takes to recharge the batteries, then have it shut down.

I just ran a comparison between two 30kW generators. One LP, the other diesel. At no-load, the LP generator pulls 34 cubic feet of gas/hr... just under a gallon. (36.39 cuft = gallon.) The diesel burns 0.8 gallons/hr. At full load, the LP unit burns 164 cuft, or 4.5 gallons/hr. The diesel burns 2.6 gallons/hr. A propane tank should not drop below 20% full to support a generator, so a 500 gallon LP tank would be able to provide about 400 gallons of run time. So a 500 gallon LP tank would be equivalent to a 230 gallon diesel tank.

The cost of residential propane is at about $2.36/gallon, whereas off-road diesel is at $2.85 or so? So to fill up the propane tank, you're looking at $1,179 vs. $655 for the diesel.

Granted, he might not need that much power... perhaps a small home/residential generator would work rather than an industrial model. But if it was me, and I was relying upon it for regular use, I'd go industrial in a heart beat. Something like this 15kW Kohler with a 209 gallon sub base tank and an all-weather enclosure would be pretty sweet:

https://kohlerpower.com/en/generators/industrial/product/15reozk

It burns 0.4 gallons at no load, 0.7 at 25% load, 1.1 at 75% load, and 1.4 at full load. With a 200 gallon tank, that's a lot of run time... somewhere between 149 ~ 300 hours, depending on the load. If he only ran it an hour or so a day to recharge the main battery bank, that's a few months worth of fuel.

So from a cost perspective, as well as an installation and reliability standpoint, diesel is the obvious choice to me... but there may be other circumstances that the OP hasn't brought up that might sway that one way or another.

Just my two cents, adjusted for inflation.

Mark

 

[Fasthotrod]

Clearly you have made up your mind. You will be hating life if you run the tank dry and have to bleed the system to get it to start again.

What's with the scare tactics? Bleeding a diesel fuel system is relatively easy, provided you educate yourself on how your engine works. I've done it a lot over the years... it's not that hard. Why not mention how the propane unit will need new plugs and wires, or a distributor if it's an older unit? Aren't those also a pain in the rear to change out?

A simple float switch in the tank that sends an engine shutdown signal can avoid him running the engine out of fuel. A low fuel alarm would also be a good idea.

That is about what I pay to refill my BBQ tank ! On a schedule, it should be <$2/gallon. Less if you if you are buying "off season".


If you are going to be using propane for water heating, cooking and supplemental heat, having to deal with another fuel is just more hassle.

Perhaps... but if he's running into town and has a diesel tank in his truck already, I don't see it being some huge burden on him.

Bottom line - If you can't get some decent solar, you can't afford to live there !

You're making a lot of assumptions here. I have no idea what the man makes per year, or what his bank account looks like... so I can't say whether he can 'afford' to live there or not.

While I agree that a solar system with an inverter would make sense IF he had access to sunlight, he has said that it's not reliable. So he's looking for alternatives, not arguments about why he's "wrong" or what he can afford.

Mark

 

[FuelFC]

I do diesel fuels (all fuels and lubes) treatment and filtration all the time (as a part of my living). -50F degree flow and storage is easy. Preservation and long term storage is easy as well. I have 4 year old dry, clean, treated diesel that I just used in our little storm here in Texas.

All my diesels started and ran. A few pennies per treated gallon, less costs in volume. My stuff was the only running in my area when it was below zero here.

Running out prevention is as easy as a low level cut off switch. There is no panacea everything take maintenance and common sense. If you plan to fail you're good. Problems occur when you fail to plan.

O/P if in your situation I'd be going diesel as well. One main and a backup. Utilize storage of power if/when you can and follow your knowledge of what you know with supply chain and reliability of all things.

 

[Daveyclimber]

I appreciate everyone's input. Walking round the property running ideas through our heads we decided on a general area for a 30ish x 40ish post frame that would allow some partial day sun exposure for some supplemental solar potentially. Ground mount would be better from the exposure side of things but I can't stand the look and take up of precious space.

The power shed would house the generator, battery bank and distribution network. I'm more interested in a smallish commercial style diesel generator with the skid tank located underneath as well as a couple of 250 gallon fuel oil type tanks. I'm thinking of placing a smaller battery bank in the shop itself for quick day to day tasks. This project won't be done all at once and unfortunately some concessions will have to be made and certain systems bought more than once or scaled up as building progresses. The shop is the priority as it makes the most sense for my needs. I need to have secure storage and a safe area to place the travel trailer while building the house. Currently the trailer is located where the house would be built and it is the most level spot on the property.

So based on the above, we would likely build and develop the shop area, enough to make usable. Install a small battery bank and use my current honda eu3000is to charge batteries and do what we currently do with it.
In the meantime while shop is being built, we can stake out location for the house and based on that have the septic and well installed and do foundation work for whatever cabin we decide on. Once the cabin shell is completed and weather tight we can figure out where to locate the power shed to power the home. We don't need building permits here, and as far as I'm aware we need permits for the well and septic, mainly to ensure proper setbacks. Plumbing and electrical needs to be done by a licensed contractor. Pretty much still the wild west here and I'm all for that.

Whats everyone's opinions on foundation styles in frost areas? I'd love a basement but we are leaning (cost) towards a crawlspace with poured stem walls, about 32" above grade.

 

[brewchief]

My thoughts,
Plan to make both the shop and cabin as efficient as possible, try to minimize your electrical needs as much as you can.
For heat I would avoid a forced air system since you need power to run the blower, Rinnai has some very nice wall mounted heaters that look to be pretty electrically efficient, there are also millivolt versions that need no external power but those are typically less efficient on the gas side.
Water heater would be a standard vent tank type that needs no power to operate.
You may not be able to operate the well pumper off battery power for extended time but you could run it and fill a tank that uses a smaller pump to provide water to the house.

My thoughts are that it would be ideal to be able to leave the house and have enough solar power to run it.
If your home it wouldn't be a big deal for the generator to run during times of high power use as it could charge the batteries at the same time. Ideally you could keep run time down to a couple of hours a day at most.

When it comes to generators bigger isn't always better, you need enough capacity to cover your needs but oversizing it will cost you in fuel usage.

Sent from my SM-T510 using Tapatalk

 

[Daveyclimber]

Yes, generator size is going to be kept small enough to be economical yet durable enough for longevity. Thinking around 7.5kw but will ultimately depend on battery bank size and the best inverter charger given the battery bank size.

I agree, it would be nice if the solar would maintain batter consumption throughout the day, but that certainly will not happen on any overcast day.

I was hoping to install a 1000 gallon cistern, let the well pump fill once it gets to a pre determined level and use a booster pump to pump water into house or yard hydrant.

I was hoping for an on demand type water heater but am not real familiar with the ins and outs.

Forced air furnace is definitely out. I will check out Rinna.

Definitely going to make the cabin as efficient as possible. I'm used to working in a cold shop but plan on wood heat. Initially the shop will be bare bones to get started but plan on insulating in the future. Id like to have natural daylight in the shop by windows or translucent panels but they would probably let all the heat out, windows anyway. Thank you for the input.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Another way to deal with this is to use a liquid withdraw system that pulls liquid propane from the tank, and does the liquid/vapor conversion next to the generator.

Not an expert, but I though ALL large permanently mounted tanks pulled liquid from the bottom of the tank.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Bottom line - If you can't get some decent solar, you can't afford to live there !

You're making a lot of assumptions here. I have no idea what the man makes per year, or what his bank account looks like... so I can't say whether he can 'afford' to live there or not.

If he want the comforts of a permanent year-round home (heat, hot water, cooking on a non-wood fired stove, enough electricity to run a washer, dryer and other typical household appliances nt to mention shop equipment) he had better have a huge bank account ! Sufficient fuel to generate enough electricity is going to cost $1000s per year, maybe over $10,000 !

 

[theoldwizard1]

So based on the above, we would likely build and develop the shop area, enough to make usable. Install a small battery bank and use my current honda eu3000is to charge batteries and do what we currently do with it.

Glad to see you are spending some time planning things out and this DOES sound like a feasible plan. Only downside is that your your generator is 120VAC only. (Based on YouTube videos, EU3000is do NOT like extreme cold (<20F). Run 5w-20 or 0W-20.)

Install a small battery bank and use my current Honda EU3000is to charge batteries and do what we currently do with it.

Don't waste money on anything less than a 24V system ! Four 6V golf cart batteries are a low cost start, but the require ventilation and watering. You can buy individual LiFePO4 cells directly from China at "reasonable" cost. These last multiple time longer than lead acid. They do require a Battery Management System and a Battery monitor.

Whats everyone's opinions on foundation styles in frost areas? I'd love a basement but we are leaning (cost) towards a crawlspace with poured stem walls, about 32" above grade.

You will still need a footer that goes down below the frost line. I would use insulated concrete forms (ICF) for the stem wall. Easy to assemble, but you really need a concrete pumper. Concrete floor and you can have a "conditioned" crawl space (exterior water proofing is still required).

 

[nadogail]

IMHO, you can put together a generator system using repurposed components. I have studied the postings from the Epi Center, where a lawnmower engine powers an alternator to charge batteries.

Small gas engines are not know for durability, but they are cheap.

IMHO, everything is a compromise between what we would like to have and what is attainable.

 

[472scout]

To a degree cutting down some trees would help for solar. But we are talking pine trees and they cast a long shadow. Trees on neighboring property would be more of a issue than my trees. A comparable lot really doesn't exist in the area. People are nuts and in the last year folks have bought up about anything on the market site unseen and of course bidding g wars. RE is ridiculous right now and for the last two years really. My lot is appealing due to the fact it backs up to forest service land with river access. It's a neat area.

Well my point was more along the lines of how much money could you get from selling your land to put towards a better property.

I.E. one where you can connect to the grid for cheap energy so that you can run your plasma cutter, compressor, and the washer and dryer whenever and as much as you want and all at the same time. Without costing a fortune for propane and/or batteries or whatever alt. source you go with.

USFS access is a huge plus. Is the river an easy walk from you're property?

 

[Daveyclimber]

If he want the comforts of a permanent year-round home (heat, hot water, cooking on a non-wood fired stove, enough electricity to run a washer, dryer and other typical household appliances nt to mention shop equipment) he had better have a huge bank account ! Sufficient fuel to generate enough electricity is going to cost $1000s per year, maybe over $10,000 !

I'm originally from California where I'd costs $1000's a year. It would be nothing new, just on my terms.

 

[Daveyclimber]

Well my point was more along the lines of how much money could you get from selling your land to put towards a better property.

I.E. one where you can connect to the grid for cheap energy so that you can run your plasma cutter, compressor, and the washer and dryer whenever and as much as you want and all at the same time. Without costing a fortune for propane and/or batteries or whatever alt. source you go with.

USFS access is a huge plus. Is the river an easy walk from you're property?

Comparable properties with grid access are stupid prices right now.
Short easy walk to river, raft access 2 miles down the road.

 

[Daveyclimber]

Glad to see you are spending some time planning things out and this DOES sound like a feasible plan. Only downside is that your your generator is 120VAC only. (Based on YouTube videos, EU3000is do NOT like extreme cold (<20F). Run 5w-20 or 0W-20.)


Don't waste money on anything less than a 24V system ! Four 6V golf cart batteries are a low cost start, but the require ventilation and watering. You can buy individual LiFePO4 cells directly from China at "reasonable" cost. These last multiple time longer than lead acid. They do require a Battery Management System and a Battery monitor.



You will still need a footer that goes down below the frost line. I would use insulated concrete forms (ICF) for the stem wall. Easy to assemble, but you really need a concrete pumper. Concrete floor and you can have a "conditioned" crawl space (exterior water proofing is still required).

I'd be going 48v for the power system. Obviously I run 12v now for the trailer. I use 2 6v currently.

ICF sounds like a great idea. Pumpers available in the area.

 

[Brand X]

I am down 515 ft on my well.. 6000 watt MQ generator will start, and run it fine.. I would think cistern to store water, and only run a bigger genny to fill the tanks.. That way many options on smaller pumps to have water.. Think a bit more RV type/style there, and if you need more flow, easy to do..

 

[472scout]

Comparable properties with grid access are stupid prices right now.
Short easy walk to river, raft access 2 miles down the road.

Most are that's true. But I've been looking as well and have found many properties with acreage in ID and MT under $50K with power nearby, trees, good access, etc.

What's your neighbor say about thinning the trees?

 

[Daveyclimber]

My neighbor had a scare with high winds and trees last winter so there may be something there. Ironically, I owned a tree service for 20 years.
I too have seen many properties but they just dont have the benefits of river access and nearly 300k acres of direct out my back door USFS land.

I bought my piece for $27k I could get $35-40k for it but I wouldn't be able to touch anything around here that was comparable.

 

[Daveyclimber]

My neighbor had a scare with high winds and trees last winter so there may be something there. Ironically, I owned a tree service for 20 years.
I too have seen many properties but they just dont have the benefits of river access and nearly 300k acres of direct out my back door USFS land.

I bought my piece for $27k I could get $35-40k for it but I wouldn't be able to touch anything around here that was comparable.

 

[472scout]

Power and backing to USFS is hard to find if that's a show stopper. Myself I'll trade grid power for USFS every day of the week as long as I'm within 20 minutes or so. Do you know what your KWH for summer and winter currently are? Once you have that nailed down you can extrapolate. Post Frame is a great way to go on a budget.

 

[Bert_]

Not an expert, but I though ALL large permanently mounted tanks pulled liquid from the bottom of the tank.

Definitely not. Most appliances can't run on liquid. It might for a little while but the valves and regulators will freeze up. Turning liquid into vapor takes HEAT.

If the tank can't vaporize fast enough for the demand then you have to add vaporizers. Either stand alone vaporizers that burn a little bit of propane to create the heat or it can be part of the equipment.

A common one for me is grain dryers. They use a coil of pipe right in front of the heater to vaporize the liquid propane. You can't have enough tanks to feed vapor to a several million btu burner.

 

[WisJim]

Having lived with small wind and solar since the 1970s and still using PVs to supply almost all of our energy needs, I may be biased, but I think you should at least get a professional opinion on you solar electric options. Having said that, I also feel it is worth installing all or most of your PV system yourself, saving yourself 1/3 to 2/3 of the cost of having a contractor do it. Worth finding out what your potential annual energy production from solar actually might be. I am also a professionally trained solar and small wind site assessor with lots of experience although now retired due to back and knee problems.

 

[Daveyclimber]

Having lived with small wind and solar since the 1970s and still using PVs to supply almost all of our energy needs, I may be biased, but I think you should at least get a professional opinion on you solar electric options. Having said that, I also feel it is worth installing all or most of your PV system yourself, saving yourself 1/3 to 2/3 of the cost of having a contractor do it. Worth finding out what your potential annual energy production from solar actually might be. I am also a professionally trained solar and small wind site assessor with lots of experience although now retired due to back and knee problems.

Oh, I would definitely consult a professional regarding solar equipment as you can waste a lot of dough real quick . I would also do a good portion of the work myself. I'm frugal and like to save money when it is within my means and skill set.

 

[wanderer]

I’d look into a light plant for the generator. Most are powered with Kubota 3cylinder diesels at 1800 rpm and a 6kw head. Run time is about 3-4 days on a 50 gallon tank with 4kw load. The gen set can be removed easily from the chassis if desired. If I were you I’d look into a battery system and use the generator as necessary for big loads and battery charging.

Btw...light plants are cheap used. I have two, paid $700 each. They are designed to run thousands of hours.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Btw...light plants are cheap used. I have two, paid $700 each. They are designed to run thousands of hours.

But would you rely on them as your primary power 24/7 ?

 

[jeepxj]

god no light plants are loud tin cans

 

[510ebl]

Daveyclimber,

To me it sounds like:

You have a great grasp of the diesel generator wants/requirements.
You are open to solar to supplement.
You are conservative when it comes to energy usage.
You value the location of your current property over almost all else.

A couple of thoughts:

Use of the 1000 gal cistern means topping off once a week maybe? No need to factor the deep well pump into the battery equations, except as a backup if everything else was shut down. Make a point of topping off the water when the gene is on a run cycle. Perhaps coordinate them with an automation/scheduler. Place the cistern far enough uphill of the house to make life easy on the smaller pressure pump and perhaps gravity feed if required.

Cobbling together a generator from parts isn’t prudent, IMHO, except for a spare. The “spare” gene can someday be dedicated to the heavier draws from the shop, though that may complicate code compliance (despite having few/no permits, etc.) The light tower idea is good for this occasional use unit. Perhaps an interlock/transfer switch to a shop sub panel to “plug in” when needed for the larger draws.

$1000/month for fuel is probably figuring high, but when compared to typical home utility bills the increase is not excessive if it is what you are willing to pay.

Maybe plan a solar panel on the generator shed to keep the start batteries topped up if you are away from the property for a while.

 

[hilld]

1 thing I didn't see mentioned is how you are going to build the house. If you build with energy efficiency in mind, your power requirements will be extremely low.

Use ICF and SIPS for your walls, SIPS for your roof, you did say you would like a basement, this is where ICF's really shine. If you wanted, you could even do your upper story in ICF, but SIPS might be a bit cheaper, but still super efficient. Triple pane windows to complete the house. You should be able to heat/cool with a couple of mini split heads and an HRV to do a good air exchange. By reducing your power requirements you could probably generate enough power from your limited solar system (if you have battery storage). The generator would be used to run your power hungry tools such as your welder, plasma cutter, etc.

 

[Fasthotrod]

Not an expert, but I though ALL large permanently mounted tanks pulled liquid from the bottom of the tank.

Not necessarily. The change from a liquid to a vapor causes a refrigeration effect... surprisingly enough, propane was one of the original refrigerants used in HVAC.

For most homes that have LP appliances, there will be a vapor withdraw system at the tank with a fuel pressure regulator. Then at the home there may be an additional pressure regulator to further reduce the pressures before propane enters the home.

This is typically done in vapor form, as we do NOT want liquid propane to enter a structure. Propane expands at a rate of 270:1 and can quickly evacuate all of the air out of the structure should a leak occur. I'm not aware of any residential Code that would allow liquid propane into a home, but I suppose it's possible.

For generators, you can pick either fuel delivery option... but each has their own choice of issues. Vapor withdraw is relatively easy, but requires a large fuel line to move the vapor to the generator. You don't have any issues with the vaporization taking place at the unit, because that's happening inside the tank. If the tank is undersized, or if you are drawing fuel out at a high rate, you can actually see frost develop on the outside of the tank. It's a pretty good indication of fuel level when that happens, as the frost line will happen where the fuel is still liquid. The problem with this method is that in colder temperatures, the fuel pressure drops to the point where you cannot get sufficient fuel delivery to the unit.

A liquid withdraw system is better in that regard... it doesn't take much to push the liquid down the line, which can be smaller in diameter as the propane is much more dense in liquid form. But as I mentioned, you do NOT want liquid propane in a structure because a leak can be fatal.

For some of our facilities, we have liquid withdraw at the tank, then mount a vaporizer in a box outside of the facility. The vaporizer performs the phase change and delivers vapor to the engine. As I mentioned before, the vaporizer needs some type of heat source to prevent it from freezing up, which can be as simple as using a liquid coolant connection at the engine (similar to a heater core connection) to take hot coolant to the vaporizer and return it to the engine. Or you can purchase an electric heater style vaporizer that used electrical heating elements to prevent the vaporizer from freezing up.

 

[speed bump]

Maybe reach out to NCAT in Butte. They can help give you some guidance energy systems.

As far as the foundation, you will need stem walls that go below the frost line to meet code. I would go ICF as you will have to insulate anyway. I would also build a root cellar as it cuts back on your food cooling.

If I was going to build off grid in Montana this is the approach I would take.

Generator, whatever fuel you like personally I have had good luck with diesel.
Battery bank for lights, small cistern pump and maintaining a small fridge so the generator doesn't run all night.
Solar array, probably not going to be the most useful thing when you really want it (short cold days) but it will make a difference.
Wood stove.
Propane water heater and stove

If you just want a place on this property and are willing to make sacrifices it isn't that hard. If you want similar to on grid living it will be cheaper to find a lot with power even if it costs $100k

 

[theoldwizard1]

Use ICF and SIPS for your walls, SIPS for your roof, you did say you would like a basement, this is where ICF's really shine.

Excellent suggestion !

The problem with SIPs is finding a construction crew who is familiar with them so they are not learning on your job. ICF (with a concrete pumper) and SIP (with a crane/backhoe) can be DIY. There are several video on YouTube of build with both of these.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Battery bank for lights, small cistern pump and maintaining a small fridge so the generator doesn't run all night.

LiFePO4 battery packs, especially DIY from individual cells, have gotten pretty reasonably priced over the past 5 years or so. You can build a pack that will easily run a standard size residential refrigerator for at least 12 hours for under $500. LiFePO4 last much longer than lead acid.

 

[dcg9381]

ICF and SIP are both great suggestions if you can get them done.
I'm still a fan of solar in this instance - quite a few homes in Alaska (off grid) using it for primary power. It's limited by how long you bank that power, but it's unlikely to be used for heating - but great for running primary pumps, LED lighting, simple inverter outlets.

How are you handling water sewer?

 

[Daveyclimber]

ICF and SIP are both great suggestions if you can get them done.
I'm still a fan of solar in this instance - quite a few homes in Alaska (off grid) using it for primary power. It's limited by how long you bank that power, but it's unlikely to be used for heating - but great for running primary pumps, LED lighting, simple inverter outlets.

How are you handling water sewer?

No SIPs, cabin will be log. Cant quite afford roof SIPs. Looking into ICF for the foundation. Heat will be wood with propane wall heater for supplemental heat. Water will be a typical well with soft start pump and hopefully a cistern with booster pump to supply house and hydrants. Sewer will be typical septic tank and leach field.

 

[Daveyclimber]

LiFePO4 battery packs, especially DIY from individual cells, have gotten pretty reasonably priced over the past 5 years or so. You can build a pack that will easily run a standard size residential refrigerator for at least 12 hours for under $500. LiFePO4 last much longer than lead acid.

Initially will likely be lead acid battery bank and then upgrade to lithium. I'm not comfortable building my own DIY batteries. I want something proven and reliable and LiFePO4 isnt tickling my fancy. Fascinating stuff but not with my skill level.

 

[Daveyclimber]

Excellent suggestion !

The problem with SIPs is finding a construction crew who is familiar with them so they are not learning on your job. ICF (with a concrete pumper) and SIP (with a crane/backhoe) can be DIY. There are several video on YouTube of build with both of these.

I'm likely going to be using an Amish builder and it looks like the roof uses a more traditional style. It would probably take a year or better to get in line with a manufacturer. It would be great to have SIP roof but dont think it's in the cards.