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Opinions on 4" slab pour

Truck Addict

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I have no idea....I'm lost!
I'm prepping for my 4" slab (24x32) The ground is virgin ground except about a foot or so from the inside of the wall due to digging for the footings, etc. Only stone was used for backfill and it is only 12" deep at the deepest point with 4" gravel over the virgin ground. The rebar is #4 on a 24" grid. The slab will not rest on the footing just on the gravel base and the wall at the door openings. I'm using 3500 psi concrete. I have poured other slabs like this as a helper years ago and this was pretty much standard for the company.
Now, I have some friends making me second guess this. They are claiming that 4" isn't going to be enough since I plan to use bottle jacks and floor jacks in the shop when I work on my F250's and F350s. They think 4" will just get punched through. I think they are way wrong, but if there is any chance they are right, now is the time to change somethings before the 'crete comes!
Looking for opinions. Thanks
 
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A_Pmech

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Punched though by an F350 on a jack? Not a chance, unless you have a 10' diameter sinkhole under your slab. You don't have that problem, I hope. :)
 

1949 caddyman

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I have a 20 X23 detached shop with a 4" mono pour slab that is 20 years old. I use floor jacks and jack stands holding 4k lb. vehicles with no cracks or problems.
 

Old Moparz

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I agree, I seriously doubt that a bottle jack will ever punch through a concrete floor. A thickness of 4 inches is very common for residential garages with 5 to 6 inches for commercial applications. The biggest issue with failure would probably depend on the condition, type & prep of the gravel subbase & subgrade below.
 

samert111

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My 26,000 Lb Motorhome is currently sitting on it's 3 point leveling jacks in my Pole Barn. Jack pads are 8" diameter and the front one is holding up 9,000 lbs and the 2 rear jacks are holding up 16,000 lbs. Floor is 4" with fiber (no rebar), not sure of the concrete PSI rating but it's not anything special, probably 3000 PSI.

No problems so far after 6 years.
 

Gary S

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The biggest issue with failure would probably depend on the condition, type & prep of the gravel subbase & subgrade below.

I agree. What is under the concrete will dictate if it will last. What kind of soil do you have? If you have clay soil, the concrete will shift. If you have sandy soil, it will never move unless something is done wrong in prepping the soil.
Many years ago I poured a 4" garage slab on sandy soil. It never even developed a single crack. I jacked up many vehicles on it with no problems.
 

SteelHorseHD

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I agree with all of the above posts... I know a guy down the road from me that is a farmer. He has 4" concrete with rebar and can pull anything he wants to in that shop. Tractors, semi's etc... My floor is 4" with wire mesh and I have had no issues after two years with jacks. I even pulled a backhoe in it while I was constructing the building. It hasn't cracked at all either. I wouldn't waste the money just to have 6" concrete. You will be fine.
 

K'ledgeBldr

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Since you're asking here I would assume this is not being permitted?
Because if it was, the building department for your county or municipality would probably have guidelines for you based on the soil conditions for your area of VA.
 
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I have no idea....I'm lost!
K'ledgebldr,
Why would you assume it's not permitted just because I asked a question?
Yes, it is permitted...kinda hard to hide a 24x32 garage from GIS satalites, etc. The guidelines are just that, guidelines. This is a residential garage but I'm using it as a workshop and also to park my trucks in. I also plan to get a duece and a half project truck, so I wanted to make sure the slab was enough for more that just a typical home owner. Looks like based on all the comments here that the 4" with the #4 bar should do great for what I need.
 

38Chevy454

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You can also go to stronger 4000 psi concrete or thicker 5 inch slab thickness for relatively small incremental cost on either option. It sounds like you are already formed up, so using slightly higher strength would be an easy upgrade, and the cost is maybe $5 extra per yard for the stronger concrete.
 

NCCheesehead

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Your slab is basically how we build most garage/non- inhabited residential slabs here in NC. You will be fine, and even better with the rebar grid you plan to add. A cheap no brainer will be to add fiber to the 3500psi mix for piece of mind.
 

radrush

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The only way that jack stand is going to punch a hole the slab is if the sub-grade below it deflects. Higher PSI isn't likely to help with punch/shear. Concrete has little strength in tension. Concrete has almost all of its strength in compression. That's why rebar, which has very high strength in tension, is placed in concrete, to resist tension forces placed on the concrete.

However, the notion that "virgin" ground is best is just silly. Just because it's undisturbed soil doesn't mean that won't deflect and fail under load. What matters is the subgrade’s bearing capacity, a function of its stiffness.

The best way to test the soil subgrade prior to placing concrete is to proof-roll it with a fully loaded tandem axle dump truck. Simply drive the truck up/back over the area and watch how the subgrade reacts behind the rear tires. If you see the soil subgrade subside or deflect as the truck passes over the subgrade you have issues.
Do you have the rebar supported off the subgrade on concrete bricks? “Hooking” or pulling it up during the placement of concrete is waste of time/money.

What’s your plan for sawing control joints in this slab? Shrinkage cracks can be controlled with proper control joints. When it comes to sawing TIMING is everything.

What’s your plan for curing this slab? Proper curing is essential. You can buy curing compound at HD or Lowes and spray it on with a hand held pump sprayer. When the trowel machine comes off the slab you should be spraying it with curing compound. Follow the manufacturer’s application rate. Spray half of it on, let it dry, and spray the other half on.
 

radrush

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The only way that jack stand is going to punch a hole the slab is if the sub-grade below it deflects. Higher PSI isn't likely to help with punch/shear. Concrete has little strength in tension. Concrete has almost all of its strength in compression. That's why rebar, which has very high strength in tension, is placed in concrete, to resist tension forces placed on the concrete.

However, the notion that "virgin" ground is best is just silly. Just because it's undisturbed soil doesn't mean that won't deflect and fail under load. What matters is the subgrade’s bearing capacity, a function of its stiffness.

The best way to test the soil subgrade prior to placing concrete is to proof-roll it with a fully loaded tandem axle dump truck. Simply drive the truck up/back over the area and watch how the subgrade reacts behind the rear tires. If you see the soil subgrade subside or deflect as the truck passes over the subgrade you have issues.
Do you have the rebar supported off the subgrade on concrete bricks? “Hooking” or pulling it up during the placement of concrete is waste of time/money.

What’s your plan for sawing control joints in this slab? Shrinkage cracks can be controlled with proper control joints. When it comes to sawing TIMING is everything.

What’s your plan for curing this slab? Proper curing is essential. You can buy curing compound at HD or Lowes and spray it on with a hand held pump sprayer. When the trowel machine comes off the slab you should be spraying it with curing compound. Follow the manufacturer’s application rate. Spray half of it on, let it dry, and spray the other half on.
 

rburke65

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Do you achieve the higher psi rating of concrete by adding more Portland cement? Is this what they mean a 4 sack mix and /or a 5 sack mix.....or what ever? Thanks.
 

radrush

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Do you achieve the higher psi rating of concrete by adding more Portland cement? Is this what they mean a 4 sack mix and /or a 5 sack mix.....or what ever? Thanks.

Yes.

However, higher strength doesn't always equal higher performance. The higher the cement content the higher the heat of hydration, with faster strength gain, a quicker initial set. This leads to finishing problems and cracking issues. If the concrete sets fast and gains strength fast and you aren't ready to saw your joints and haven't cured it properly well...lots of shrinkage cracks will result.

You want a commercial mix, not a residential. You want to see the mix history report and the mix design (the ingredients by proportion).

Remember, ultimate strength is a function of the concrete's slump, its workability, at the time of placement. The higher the slump (the wetter) the lower the strength will be and more cracks you will get.

Lots of people will tell you some nonsense about 2 kinds of concrete, concrete that;s cracked and concrete that's going to crack.

In my world there are two kinds of concrete: properly placed and improperly placed. Properly placed concrete slabs are nearly crack free.

If you want to scare your concrete contractor straight tell him you expect an Ff/Fl (floor flatness and floor levelness) number of 40/30 over all and that you hired a local testing lab to perform an F-number survey the day of placement. If he says something like, "Huh?" get a new contractor.

Low slump concrete = important
Control Joints = IMPORTANT
Curing = IMPORTANT
 

IDASHO

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You caught that too, eh?

No worries, he is contradicting himself.

All control joints do is control (to a degree) where the cracks form and travel.

Lots of people will tell you some nonsense about 2 kinds of concrete, concrete that;s cracked and concrete that's going to crack......

....

Control Joints = IMPORTANT...
 
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powpow

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I would reccomend this

1. go to 5 inches thick, that will add 3 yards to the whole project. You are talking about 300-350.00 additional.
2. You are doing re-bar------excellent!!!
3. Are you doing thickened edges?

4 Cut your slab as square as possible, the best would be to keep the panels no more than 8ft x 8 ft. Saw just them about 1 inch. This will help prevent cross cracking.
5 caulk the saw cut control joints then seal. I use Cemstone CPC super seal to keep water from getting under the slab

Good luck!!!
 

jrhaines2

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You caught that too, eh?

No worries, he is contradicting himself.

All control joints do is control (to a degree) where the cracks form and travel.


"Properly placed concrete slabs are nearly crack free".

I actually was not being sarcastic when I posed that question but I think it is fair and honest to say that a concrete floor is going to have cracks.I would be very surprised to find a contractor willing to guarantee a customer a floor that will be crack free.I am not going as far as saying that a crack free floor is not possible or that there are no crack free floors out there,I am just saying that I believe it more than reasonable to expect cracks in a floor.

My personal opinion on control joints,let the cracks go were the be.
 

Al Bundy

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"Properly placed concrete slabs are nearly crack free".

I actually was not being sarcastic when I posed that question but I think it is fair and honest to say that a concrete floor is going to have cracks.I would be very surprised to find a contractor willing to guarantee a customer a floor that will be crack free.I am not going as far as saying that a crack free floor is not possible or that there are no crack free floors out there,I am just saying that I believe it more than reasonable to expect cracks in a floor.

My personal opinion on control joints,let the cracks go were the be.

Sorry but my expectations are a bit different. I expect walls to be plumb, I expect the ceiling to be flat and I expect the floor not to crack.

I hired an expert with 25+ years of concrete work. I got a great result. If I hired a hack I'm sure I would have gotten, "It's normal for a floor to crack."
 

jrhaines2

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Sorry but my expectations are a bit different. I expect walls to be plumb, I expect the ceiling to be flat and I expect the floor not to crack.

I hired an expert with 25+ years of concrete work. I got a great result. If I hired a hack I'm sure I would have gotten, "It's normal for a floor to crack."

Your walls and ceilings are perfect? Of coarse the reality is that they are not even though you might expect them to be.You are dealing with imperfect building materials along with mother nature and human error factored in so how could you ever expect perfection.

Tell me what is so bad about a few hairline cracks? Do you have any cracks in your floor? There are so many factors involved from start to finish and so many variables to tend with in pouring a floor.

Why is it not normal for a floor to crack when the majority of floors have cracks?
 
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Falcon67

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Sorry but my expectations are a bit different. I expect walls to be plumb, I expect the ceiling to be flat and I expect the floor not to crack.

When I buy a house or shop, or build a building that meets all that criteria, I'll be sure and let you know. After 6 houses, 4 shops, various other buildings, plus helping friends and relatives with their houses/shops/outbuildings over the last 40 years - I ain't seen one yet. God is perfect, everything else aspires to it. My shop will be a great one and the floor had spider cracks after full cure and it drops about 2" from NW to SE corners. No big deal. Our last house would have made you nuts. The only plumb ever in that house was a similar named fruit brought in from the store. :lol_hitti

Mine is 4~5" thick with a 12" x 12" footer and beams. Everything here sits on expansive soils, so I expect things to move around. The slab has lots of rebar in it, the ground was packed and watered well ( since we're in the middle of a drought) and I used more nails than screws because nails allow for some flex and movement. I don't really believe that very many, if any, buildings are truly static. We've owned a couple of stick build pier&beams houses and those are literally living, breathing things.
 
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ConCretin

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If you want to scare your concrete contractor straight tell him you expect an Ff/Fl (floor flatness and floor levelness) number of 40/30 over all and that you hired a local testing lab to perform an F-number survey the day of placement. If he says something like, "Huh?" get a new contractor.

Good advice if you want to be stuck placing your own floor. i'd be surprised if one in a hundred residential finishers had any experience with floor profiling. :bounce:
 

Al Bundy

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When I put up a wall I make it plumb. The corners are square. The ceiling is flat. Explain to me the reason for not doing the job properly. Or better yet, explain to me why you would pay someone else and then allow them to not do it properly. It's not a matter of perfection, nothing is perfect. But there's a right way and a half-assed way. If you're OK with producing sloppy work that's your prerogative and there is certainly no shortage of guys to keep you company. I prefer to take pride in what I do and do it the right way.
 

Zeke

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radrush may seem over the top, but he obviously knows more than anyone I've read here, ever.

You see, only those really in the know use the proper term "placed." You don't pour concrete, it's placed. And cement is a powder in this context. Concrete is a mixture where the ingredients and their ratios are of paramount importance with regard to the ambient weather.
 

jrhaines2

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When I put up a wall I make it plumb. The corners are square. The ceiling is flat. Explain to me the reason for not doing the job properly. Or better yet, explain to me why you would pay someone else and then allow them to not do it properly. It's not a matter of perfection, nothing is perfect. But there's a right way and a half-assed way. If you're OK with producing sloppy work that's your prerogative and there is certainly no shortage of guys to keep you company. I prefer to take pride in what I do and do it the right way.

If I understand you correctly,your workmanship is not perfect but it is acceptable to you.Your tolerances might be a little more slack than someone else might allow so would you accept someone stating that your workmanship was sub-par?

Someone else suggested a concrete profile,did you have one done and if so,can you post the results?
 

Falcon67

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Well, just to clarify - I never said I was OK with it. I just said it is and what I meant was that you gotta roll with it as you don't always have a choice. People make mistakes, things happen. Houses and building end up with compromises even in the best efforts. Would I jackhammer out 16 yards of concrete because it has a bit of slope to it? No, I'll make it work. The contractor and I worked out the rest to my satisfaction. My new shop walls are plumb and the corners square and braced well too. But its not going to be perfectly level and the building will be fine anyway. I didn't build our last house - wasn't around in 1928. They don't build 'em like they used to and it's a damn good thing.

Our drag strip was poured by professional, experienced contractors. Weeks were spent on site prep under the track. The main track section was poured in two 25' x 800' concrete sections, each in a continuous pour. The sections were watered, cured and expansion joints were cut every 20'. Deep cuts, because I helped put backer rod in 'em and work in the silicone caulk on top. Damn that was a lot of tubes. The sections are around 8"~12" thick and I have idea how much steel is in there, but it's a LOT. Three years pass - it's cracked in the relief cuts AND in between the cuts. 5 years pass, it's wavy enough that the hard tail dragsters don't want to use the left lane. Seems crossing the finish line with the back tires in the air at 150 MPH un-nerves the driver. New owner calls out Penhall in 2008 and after $50,000 it nice and smooth again. Quickest dial last weekend was 4.42 at about 160. The point - Things move around and change even with the best efforts.
 
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Al Bundy

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If I understand you correctly,your workmanship is not perfect but it is acceptable to you.Your tolerances might be a little more slack than someone else might allow so would you accept someone stating that your workmanship was sub-par?

Someone else suggested a concrete profile,did you have one done and if so,can you post the results?

No I will not turn this into a debate about semantics. Perfection is not obtainable therefore everyone's work could be considered sub-par.

My whole point, which either I didn't communicate properly or is just not understood, is that if you pour a floor and a couple months later it cracks then barring some sort of catastrophic event it wasn't done properly. To call that "normal" is just a cop out to cover for substandard workmanship.

My floor is approx. 1200 sq ft. It's divided into four section by control joints. It has no cracks in it. And I don't want to hear the BS about control joints being cracks, they are supposed to be there and that's not what we're talking about. The garage floor at my dad's house is roughly 400 sq ft. It is 45 years old and has no cracks in it. I could site countless examples done by the same guy that poured my floor that are not cracked. Has he ever had one crack on him? I'm sure he has, nobody is perfect. But if you tell him it's normal for concrete to crack he'll laugh in your face.

Like I said before, if you're satisfied with crappy work good for you, you'll never be disappointed. But don't go around spreading manure about how it's normal.
 

Al Bundy

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I understand what you were saying Falcon. I'm only talking about new construction, not something that's already built.

I'm sure pouring a dragstrip presents a huge challenge. I realize things move and nothing can be made to last forever. My only comment would be that five years doesn't really seem an acceptable time frame for such a project to be rendered unusable. But I have to admit I know nothing about it, maybe that's considered the average life span for a track. If that's the case I can see why so many of them go out of business.
 

radrush

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Advice for Truck Addict:

If the sub-grade is solid you have no worries. If the sub-grade is firm, stiff, unless you place the worst concrete ever there is just no way a jack stand is going to punch through it.
 

radrush

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Control joints do precisely what the name implies, they “control: where cracks caused by tensile forces, movements caused by temperature changes and drying shrinkage, etc, occur. So if the floor is going to crack it will crack where you have provided a weakened plane, a saw cut, and you want to be the one that decides where these occur in a straight line instead of random.

However, the placement of control joints, the timing of the sawing, is crucial. Tensile forces act on concrete during initial set and on up through finishing. The idea is to place your control joints where you want the floor to crack before the concrete decides on its own.

The number and size of cracks in a slab-on-grade is a function of the time and effort, the investment, put into the project. Maximum spacing of control joints should be 12’.

Some good information here: http://www.concretenetwork.com/concrete/slabs/controljoints.htm

Personally I would never place a 4-inch SOG. I want 3” of concrete between the ground and the rebar and 2” of concrete cover on the top of the rebar. Remember, rebar is like a sponge; wet it and as it rusts it expands causing cracking of the concrete, and potentially spalling of the concrete’s surface. Rebar and concrete are in a symbiotic relationship: the rebar strengthens the concrete by resisting tensile forces and the concrete protects the rebar from the deleterious effects of water. So if using #4 rebar (½” diameter) @ 12” each-way, my ideal SOG is at least 6” thick with 12’ maximum span between control joints.

Always support rebar off the ground on pre-cast concrete brick (not clay brick, no no no, never clay brick): “hooking” of rebar or WWF is disallowed and unacceptable.
Never use “rolled” weld wire mesh. For one thing, welded wire mesh is for fencing. Weld wire fabric on the other hand, in flat sheets, is for structural concrete.

CURING = IMPORTANT

The Romans invented concrete and even they knew that curing was important.
 

Falcon67

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I understand what you were saying Falcon. I'm only talking about new construction, not something that's already built.

I'm sure pouring a dragstrip presents a huge challenge. I realize things move and nothing can be made to last forever. My only comment would be that five years doesn't really seem an acceptable time frame for such a project to be rendered unusable. But I have to admit I know nothing about it, maybe that's considered the average life span for a track. If that's the case I can see why so many of them go out of business.

Since I'm not and expert or even a small drip under pressure, I can only say that spider cracks seem to be the norm around here. I assume mine are there because we didn't have any option other that to pour when ready and that that was in the middle of our 100+ days over 100F. I kept it wet as long as I could - 2 days - then it was what it was. Since the surface would hit 135+ in the afternoon, I'm sure it was cure related. The house next door had walls and a roof on it before 28 days were up. I think it was a 5 sack, 3500+ pour. Why they have some larger cracks I'm not sure. The ones in mine are pretty teeny and should be covered by the epoxy paint.

The slab next door is about 5 years old. It has 18"x18" footers, beams, steel on 18" centers, 5~6" thick. It also has the teeny spider cracks on the surface.

My last shop did have a big one that ran diagonal. That was all site prep, I'm sure. It was contracted and done while I was away, and it waited about 5 years to do it. It was wide enough to feed it a nickle sideways. Very disappointing, but the space was still usable.

Our soil here is pretty expansive, with some percentage of clay. I had to start watering the foundation of the house this summer due to the lack of rain - the dirt was 3/4" away from the slab on the east side. We got one 1.5" rain dump on a weekend and every crack in the ground closed up. 10 days later, all were back. You can see that at the track too - even though the ground is sloped away from the racing surface, after a heavy rain water seems to move under the track. When the sun comes out, it will percolate up through the cracks in the track. I know from reading up on soils before my pour that there are many areas where a slab might not move at all.

I would not say it's not possible to be crack free for sure, but for most common homeowner slabs around these parts it seems to be something we can expect.

> If that's the case I can see why so many of them go out of business.
O/T for sure but I can offer some insight:
Cost vs revenue. A two day weekend will run around $700~900 for insurance alone. The water/sewer bill at the track runs about $220/mth with zero usage, so in the winter they have the city lock the meter because it's only a $25 reconnect charge. Pull the plug on everything - EVERYTHING - turn off all the breakers except a couple of mercury vapor lights and the power bill runs about $400. Turn on the track lights for night racing - you donna wanna know. Add 10 employees at min wage and a payout. Charge a resonable run card fee, get maybe 80 cars and you will lose your **** on a weekend. Pull 100 miles with a flat trailer, pay the gate fee, buy a Mod run card and you are already out around $75 and you haven't bought race fuel or food. Lots of people just can't do that right now. We've lost two tracks this year in the area - that's a 200 mile circle area.

>Falcon, did they come in and mill the surface and put a whitetopping-type overlay?
No, they just ground it flat and did some "buffing" to smooth it out some. You can easily see the grind marks in the track, but it does not affect traction. It was "green" for a while for sure until it got a bit of rubber worked into the surface. When they got done I could run through the traps at 95 MPH with one hand on the wheel. Smoother than the dang freeway.
 
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radrush

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No worries, he is contradicting himself.

All control joints do is control (to a degree) where the cracks form and travel.

Right, the idea is that if the slab cracks, it cracks where you want it to crack, in a straight, caulked joint as opposed to a random unsightly surface crack.

A SOG could be made without control joints but this would require a concrete mix with type-K cement and at least a truck load of rebar like 2 mats of #6 @ 6" each-way top and bottom. You don't even want to know what a type-K mix would cost per cubic yard, but you wouldn't need control joints and when done right - zero cracks.

CURING = IMPORTANT
 

radrush

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Good advice if you want to be stuck placing your own floor. i'd be surprised if one in a hundred residential finishers had any experience with floor profiling. :bounce:

In this economy there should be plenty of commercial finishers available. Even if it's residential finisher ask to see a copy of his American Concrete Institute flat-work finishing certification. If he says, "Huh?", well you know what to do.

Look, I'm on a project right now where the finishers hit 65/60 on the Ff/Fl and they HAND screed! These guys are good!

Shall we settle on 25/20 so that this guy can roll his tool cabinet around the shop without all the welds creaking and cracking and breaking? Or settle on 20/15 so he has to buy that super-duty 36"-wide tool cabinet that cost $5K just so he push it around the shop without the welds breaking?
 
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I have no idea....I'm lost!
Thanks guys. I graded the gravel and did some other work on it today. Ran low on gravel but slab will be about 4.5" to 5" thick now. Cheaper at this point to order more concrete than get another load, since I need to get it finalized on prep this weekend and can't work on it tomorrow.
Laying the rebar and vapor barrier Saturday along with forming out the front and side door. Inspection is set for Monday.
I appreciate all the info.....and entertainment! LOL!
I like things done right too, and I realize nothing is perfect but I try to get things as close as possible given the material limitations as well as my own.
I'm getting a quote on Monday to have a pro place the slab. I'd like to do it and I have plenty of help to do so, but it has been a long while since I've done this type of work (hence the questions)
As long as I can afford the pro, I'm going to sit back and supervise.....or just drink a beer! LOL!
 
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