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Opinions on 4" slab pour

ConCretin

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In this economy there should be plenty of commercial finishers available. Even if it's residential finisher ask to see a copy of his American Concrete Institute flat-work finishing certification. If he says, "Huh?", well you know what to do.

Look, I'm on a project right now where the finishers hit 65/60 on the Ff/Fl and they HAND screed! These guys are good!

Shall we settle on 25/20 so that this guy can roll his tool cabinet around the shop without all the welds creaking and cracking and breaking? Or settle on 20/15 so he has to buy that super-duty 36"-wide tool cabinet that cost $5K just so he push it around the shop without the welds breaking?

There are several problems with your suggestion that the home owner insist on a specific floor profile.

The first is the unfamiliarity that virtually all residential finishers will have with the process. You'll eliminate a lot of good contractors just because they don't have experience with a process that is alien to them.

The second is the cost of testing, which could exceed the cost of finishing.

The third is that it is completely unnecessary. The average homeowner would be better off specifying flatness using a more traditional straightedge standard.

Ff/Fl just isn't appropriate for a garage floor. You are much better off focusing on more relevant issues such as sub grade prep, positioning of reinforcement, slump, finishing methods and curing.
 
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slip knot

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Ff/Fl, hell I'm happy if the guys on the concrete crew can speak english.

I've been a construction inspector for several municipal projects (> 2mil$) and have never seen this Ff/Fl term before. Thats what I like about this site, always something new to learn. Good info for sure.
 

ConCretin

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Ff/Fl, hell I'm happy if the guys on the concrete crew can speak english.

I've been a construction inspector for several municipal projects (> 2mil$) and have never seen this Ff/Fl term before. Thats what I like about this site, always something new to learn. Good info for sure.

Ff/Fl is a method for specifying and measuring flatness and levelness. It's intended to replace the traditional method of measuring the gap under a 10' straightedge.

Measuring Ff/Fl requires a technician to come out and 'roll' the floor' with a 'skateboard' and a computer. The skateboard is a long multi-wheeled device that is rolled on a grid pattern in both directions.

In simple terms, the Ff value is a measurement of the flatness or "bumpiness" of a floor. Fl refers to the overall levelness of the floor relative to the intended elevation. The higher the number the flatter and more level the floor. A Ff 35 / Fl 20 is a decent commercial floor using traditional placing and finishing methods. 'Superflat' values are much higher.

If it sounds complicated, it is. It's even more complicated to repair a floor that didn't produce the right numbers. Don't ask me how I know.
 

jrhaines2

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No I will not turn this into a debate about semantics. Perfection is not obtainable therefore everyone's work could be considered sub-par.

My whole point, which either I didn't communicate properly or is just not understood, is that if you pour a floor and a couple months later it cracks then barring some sort of catastrophic event it wasn't done properly. To call that "normal" is just a cop out to cover for substandard workmanship.

My floor is approx. 1200 sq ft. It's divided into four section by control joints. It has no cracks in it. And I don't want to hear the BS about control joints being cracks, they are supposed to be there and that's not what we're talking about. The garage floor at my dad's house is roughly 400 sq ft. It is 45 years old and has no cracks in it. I could site countless examples done by the same guy that poured my floor that are not cracked. Has he ever had one crack on him? I'm sure he has, nobody is perfect. But if you tell him it's normal for concrete to crack he'll laugh in your face.

Like I said before, if you're satisfied with crappy work good for you, you'll never be disappointed. But don't go around spreading manure about how it's normal.

Cracks in a floor are exactly what I am talking about rather they be random or in the control joints.

A crack in a floor is a crack no matter how you serve it.

So your contractor is going to laugh in my face when I tell him it is normal for cracks in floors and then he is going cut joints in the floors for cracks and I am the funny one.

Hairline cracks in concrete are only considered crappy work by a few people.

When the vast majority of people have cracks in there floor,then cracks in concrete are normal,that is a fact,not an opinion.
 

jrhaines2

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Right, the idea is that if the slab cracks, it cracks where you want it to crack, in a straight, caulked joint as opposed to a random unsightly surface crack.

A SOG could be made without control joints but this would require a concrete mix with type-K cement and at least a truck load of rebar like 2 mats of #6 @ 6" each-way top and bottom. You don't even want to know what a type-K mix would cost per cubic yard, but you wouldn't need control joints and when done right - zero cracks.

CURING = IMPORTANT

But according to some,a floor is not going to crack or that if it does,it will be on a rare occasion.

So why then would any reasonable man hack up a brand new floor with unsightly cuts all over the place in the rare even that it might develop a crack?

Personally,I will take a few hairline cracks any day over control cut all over the surface of my floor.
 

buening

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Control joints are dependent on the amount of steel you put in the slab. If you want the bare minimum steel, like thin WWF, then you want relatively closely placed control joints because it will crack. Concrete does not handle tension well, so when the slab expands then the conrete will crack. Steel handles tension very well, thus its need to be in the slab for temperature and shrinkage. This is independent of Contractor induced cracking from bad practices. With enough steel in the slab and depending on its dimensions (size, any interior corners?, square or rectangular), control joints can be eliminated on smaller 2 car garages. The larger the slab gets the more steel is required and does not become economically feasible to eliminate control joints unless you have deep pockets
 
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ConCretin

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Control joints are dependent on the amount of steel you put in the slab. If you want the bare minimum steel, like thin WWF, then you want relatively closely placed control joints because it will crack. Concrete does not handle tension well, so when the slab expands then the conrete will crack. Steel handles tension very well, thus its need to be in the slab for temperature and shrinkage. This is independent of Contractor induced cracking from bad practices. With enough steel in the slab and depending on its dimensions (size, any interior corners?, square or rectangular), control joints can be eliminated on smaller 2 car garages. The larger the slab gets the more steel is required and does not become economically feasible to eliminate control joints unless you have deep pockets

Buening, I'm sure I'm going to ruffle a lot of feathers with this but what the hell, let's keep the conversation lively.

The reality is that reinforcing steel does very little to control shrinkage cracks. There I said it!

It is true that reinforcing steel increases a concrete's tensile strength but it does not prevent shrinkage cracks. It doesn't matter whether you use wire mesh or a double mat of #8 bars.

Reinforcing obviously plays an important role, primarilly keeping a crack engaged but it won't do much to prevent them.

If you want to avoid shrinkage cracks, pay attention to concrete mix design (bigger aggregate), slump(less water), waether(cooler) and curing (do it).

I realize this is contrary to a lot of long held beliefs but a careful reading of ACI and the studies on the subject will back me up.
 

IDASHO

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Moscow, Idaho
Hearing all of this chatter about Ff/Fl for a residential shop/garage is hilarious.

You guys do know that the UBC requires SLOPE for drainage in a residential setting right? :wtf:

Unless you are somehow exempt from the UBC, only in commercial apps are you legally going able to obtain a 100% flat slope.
 

buening

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You are correct Willy's. My bad. The rebar keeps the cracks tight. I've got my head up my rear this morning
 

Falcon67

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>You guys do know that the UBC requires SLOPE for drainage in a residential setting right?
Yep - but around here you just pays the money and tell 'em "flat as you can make it". My last one , before the crack, was really flat. After the crack, the west side was flat and the east side had some drainage.

>Todo esta bien
My guys, and the ones next door were multi-ligual and worked their *** off. The crew that did the next door house had one "white guy" but you could tell he was brand spanking new. They placed 90 yards in 3 hours and had the forms off in the next 4. They showed up in three pickups and were totally idle until the first concrete truck turned onto the street, then it was all hands on deck, battle stations. Everybody knew their thing and went right at it. An industrial ballet :lol:

I told my wife "we are hiring this thing out".
 
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buddyboy

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Oct 8, 2007
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a jack wouldn't punch through a piece of 1/4 inch OSB as long as the ground under it was solid... sure it would dent it, but no "punch through"

ever bust up a sidewalk? a lot easier if the piece you trying to break off has a void under it,

lay a piece of concrete on a flat lawn and try to break it, almost impossible
 

Al Bundy

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Cracks in a floor are exactly what I am talking about rather they be random or in the control joints.

A crack in a floor is a crack no matter how you serve it.

If you can't make a distinction between something done by design and something that's random then there is no point in trying to have an intelligent conversation with you. Good luck with your projects.
 

joes169

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Sep 19, 2011
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WI
There are several problems with your suggestion that the home owner insist on a specific floor profile.

The first is the unfamiliarity that virtually all residential finishers will have with the process. You'll eliminate a lot of good contractors just because they don't have experience with a process that is alien to them.

The second is the cost of testing, which could exceed the cost of finishing.

The third is that it is completely unnecessary. The average homeowner would be better off specifying flatness using a more traditional straightedge standard.

Ff/Fl just isn't appropriate for a garage floor. You are much better off focusing on more relevant issues such as sub grade prep, positioning of reinforcement, slump, finishing methods and curing.

Agreed, 100%............. :thumbup:

And I indeed have an ACI finishers cert., buried somewhere in my office I'm sure. To be honest, the cert. doesn't mean much to me, as the info is relatively elementary for a decent contractor. More a good revenue maker for ACI IMO........


As far as control joints, I guess I'm surprised that there's market's where they're considered "optional", because they are, without a doubt, the industry standard here. I don't think it's reasonable for a HO to expect random cracks in their new concrete slab when it's fairly easy to avoid them..........
 

hockey88fan

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May 25, 2011
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428
I would use a jumping jack tamper to tamp along the walls, also if you are pouring the floors thru a door opening over the foundation walls tool a relief joint or it is sure to crack.
 

radrush

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Oct 30, 2010
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Atlanta, GA
Hearing all of this chatter about Ff/Fl for a residential shop/garage is hilarious..

Hilarious? Really? Well the intended use of garage versus shop can be significant. If it's just a place to park vehicles that's one thing, but for a shop, I'd want a greater degree of precision. For all you know the the OP is building a show place or will want to roll around a super heavy tool box that he doesn't want the welds to break on.

You guys do know that the UBC requires SLOPE for drainage in a residential setting right? :wtf:

UBC? Is that historical document still in use anywhere?

At any rate, I'm only suggesting that in this economy, with a significant number of commercial finishers on short hours, it may be possible to get a better job than your average slopped in residential slab.
 
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