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Oscilliscope/Mini Osc for hobby automotive diagnostics

R-mm

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I work on mostly older (60's-90's) European cars and would like to be able to carry out some of the tests I see in factory literature, an example is attached. I do not know much about scopes but for occasional hobby use have been recommended a few made in china brands such as Rigol ($200-300 used) or a ~$100 new micro scope such as https://www.sainsmart.com/products/dso212-2-ch-handheld-mini-digital-oscilloscope

I don't want to over-buy - I have used a very simple <$100 VOM for decades for a huge variety of automotive work and don't want a larger, plug-in scope if a handheld battery powered will do. Problem is I have no idea what I don't know and the test I used as an example doesn't indicate frequency, only shape of wave form.

Can someone help me figure out what a 'good enough' scope would be to verify the function of things like fuel injectors, sensors, etc? Current stable includes '73 Alfa & '91 911 but like any car guy I'm always buying and selling.
 

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Lassen Forge

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Get a uScope, one channel pocket scope. I use mine all the time... if you get the larger kit, you will have every lead possible to do whatever diagnostics you'll ever think of using... Seriously, for the money and portability, you can't beat it.
 

2ndGearRubber

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I work on mostly older (60's-90's) European cars and would like to be able to carry out some of the tests I see in factory literature, an example is attached. I do not know much about scopes but for occasional hobby use have been recommended a few made in china brands such as Rigol ($200-300 used) or a ~$100 new micro scope such as https://www.sainsmart.com/products/dso212-2-ch-handheld-mini-digital-oscilloscope

I don't want to over-buy - I have used a very simple <$100 VOM for decades for a huge variety of automotive work and don't want a larger, plug-in scope if a handheld battery powered will do. Problem is I have no idea what I don't know and the test I used as an example doesn't indicate frequency, only shape of wave form.

Can someone help me figure out what a 'good enough' scope would be to verify the function of things like fuel injectors, sensors, etc? Current stable includes '73 Alfa & '91 911 but like any car guy I'm always buying and selling.


In your example, set frequency is basically impossible to determine. I'd assume that's a crank position sensor based on the waveform; distance between top dead center marks (the shape at figure 2) is not a set number, as engine rpm varies even within a single 720 degree revolution of the engine. I suppose one could calculate a frequency graph, as picoscope does with math channels, but unless you're trying to get fancy it's not going to tell you anything the tachometer isn't.


I have 3 scopes, the Uscope, a generation 1 snap on Modis, and a Picoscope 4425. They all have their place. The Uscope master kit was $400? Came with amp clamp, some leads and accessories. I buy backprobes in bulk on amazon. The gen-1 Modis was a craigslist deal at $350, and includes a scanner updated to whatever year, in my case 2010. Includes 4 short leads, gators and a probe or two. You will need to buy actual back probes, amp clamps, or secondary ignition stuff. It also functions as a volt meter with a big *** screen. Used snap on is the big value item IF you are willing to sit around and wait for a deal. Secondary ignition is okay for consistent-ish misfire, zooming is counter intuitive. Glitch capture is okay, not great. Picoscope makes the previous scopes look like literal children toys, but will cost you $1200+ for a scope and USB cable. No leads, no laptop to run the scope. "Value" is low, but it's extremely powerful. It absolutely stomps on the Modis, can zoom 1000X if you like, on a 5min+ per division capture over an hours time. Stupid resolution and lots of cool features like math channels, the waveform library, guided testing (mainly for those learning).


The Uscope tells you that you indeed have a signal, and the shape of it. It cannot record and then zoom, unless you save the file and view later on a laptop. Uscope is fantastic for go/no-go signal checks, basic current probe testing of DC motors, "quick peek" sort of things. It ***** at secondary ignition unless you have a dead hole, and it ***** at intermittent. Neither are what such a tool is designed for.


Modis is where you get review capability, and cursors. You kinda need cursors if you want to do the test you listed in the OP; both for time between events and height/amplitude. Great for dragging through interiors, quick test drives, it's a good unit.

Pico is the big gun. Stupid intermittent stuff, extreme detail, long time bases. More detail than you'd ever ask for.




Neither is the correct option, they all have their place. Define your budget, then see what exists within that budget, and whether that will meet your needs. Multiple channels are nice, although on older stuff I doubt you'd need them frequently.
 
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R-mm

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Thanks very much both. I think go/no go is the closest thing to what I need. For the type of relatively low tech automotive work I do that is the primary use case. For instance: i can not tell if my injectors are firing. I do not have a noid light and do not think a digital VOM has the resolution (may be wrong word) to display the high frequency pulsed ground that the ECU generates. I need a simple yes/no to help me troubleshoot. A $100 uScope or the Sainsmart unit I linked to would be a no brainer if it can do that and other simple automotive senders such as those Porsche lists here.
 

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R-mm

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Sorry to ask a dumb q but if you have a link to the basic kit please share?
 

2ndGearRubber

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Thanks very much both. I think go/no go is the closest thing to what I need. For the type of relatively low tech automotive work I do that is the primary use case. For instance: i can not tell if my injectors are firing. I do not have a noid light and do not think a digital VOM has the resolution (may be wrong word) to display the high frequency pulsed ground that the ECU generates. I need a simple yes/no to help me troubleshoot. A $100 uScope or the Sainsmart unit I linked to would be a no brainer if it can do that and other simple automotive senders such as those Porsche lists here.


A scope would be helpful for that, via pintle hump in the amp draw pattern, and the voltage spike. Now this would only indicate movement of the pintle, a clogged injector would not flow, but could exhibit pintle movement wave forms.

Scope confirms inputs, if you have spark, then it should fire the injectors if they're working. A secondary ignition probe could then identify a clogged injector via a lean misfire pattern.
 

spyerx

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Looks like the crank reference sensor for a 964 testing off the motronic harness.
These simple single channel o scopes can work fine for basic diag on the pre odb and odb 1 cars. To make sure the waveform is sending. That is really what you want to see.
Also, you really want to have a hammer, the torre scanner, durametric doesn’t work that well. The hammer or torre scanner will let you do most of the factory odb1 checks on the 964. A hammer let’s you work the awd locks for proper bleeding
For abs testing it’s better to have the abs test set you can find on rennlist or the factory tool. This will let you run the pump set the locks and also check all the reference sensors.

I also have a 91 c2.
 

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danski0224

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Hantek has some portable scopes that are similar to a big multimeter that have a screen, and they have a box similar to the pico scope that needs a laptop.
 

2ndGearRubber

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AES site is a bit confusing, a uScope search buries the actual tool on the 2nd page but here is the Basic. I wrote asking for an ETA.

https://www.aeswave.com/uScope-Basic-Kit-p9621.html

Yeah, it has an odd search and listing system. Anything internationally sourced is likely to be backordered for a while. Keep an eye out for used snap on unit locally, just in case.
 

theoldwizard1

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Can someone help me figure out what a 'good enough' scope would be to verify the function of things like fuel injectors, sensors, etc?
This depends entirely how good of an electrical engineer you are !

Notice, I did not say "electrician". Sparkies don't regularly use Ohm's Law in its many forms.

Watch South Main Auto and Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics. Those guys rarely resort to a 'scope and half of the time it is to show the viewer what hey are talking about.

Learn how to use a 12V test light. Then make yourself a "high current" (4A-5A) test light. Knowing when to use the right one means you may have graduated to using a 'scope.
 

richfinn

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Buy a used automotive scopemeter on ebay for peanuts and upgrade the battery

I like the Uei/Snap-On LS2000 versions, very easy to use dual channel and robust, works with any standard 4mm banana plug accessories (a bit slow compared to new stuff but adequate for your older cars)

Uscope doesn't do AC coupling without a modification so alternator tests and some of those inductive sensors on your old Porsche wont display correctly

A Snap On Vantage MT2400 (graphing meter) or a Vantage pro (scope) might also be good choices for your mix of vehicles
 

2ndGearRubber

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Buy a used automotive scopemeter on ebay for peanuts and upgrade the battery

I like the Uei/Snap-On LS2000 versions, very easy to use dual channel and robust, works with any standard 4mm banana plug accessories (a bit slow compared to new stuff but adequate for your older cars)

Uscope doesn't do AC coupling without a modification so alternator tests and some of those inductive sensors on your old Porsche wont display correctly

A Snap On Vantage MT2400 (graphing meter) or a Vantage pro (scope) might also be good choices for your mix of vehicles

They make an ac coupling adapter, and an attenuater.
 
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R-mm

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Learn how to use a 12V test light. Then make yourself a "high current" (4A-5A) test light. Knowing when to use the right one means you may have graduated to using a 'scope.


I sure hope I make it to graduation and an Old Wizard from the Internet confers a degree upon me. Wait I am an adult and this is not harry potter.
 
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R-mm

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Buy a used automotive scopemeter on ebay for peanuts and upgrade the battery

I like the Uei/Snap-On LS2000 versions, very easy to use dual channel and robust, works with any standard 4mm banana plug accessories (a bit slow compared to new stuff but adequate for your older cars)

Uscope doesn't do AC coupling without a modification so alternator tests and some of those inductive sensors on your old Porsche wont display correctly

A Snap On Vantage MT2400 (graphing meter) or a Vantage pro (scope) might also be good choices for your mix of vehicles

Thanks for the suggestions guys. To summarize - it seems like a lot of the micro scopes are more or less the same chinese product but the uScope made significant improvements to the interface that are worth waiting for. Otherwise it makes sense to look at other auto specific products, with understanding that they will either cost many multiples or need to wait for a deal on secondary market.
 
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2ndGearRubber

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AESwave is WAY OVERPRICED ! You can buy very similar probe and leads from Amazon for a fraction of the price.


Probes, agreed, I buy cheap packs of them as I consider them consumables. Gators and leads aren't that much more, and they make shielded leads in whatever length and termination you want. The generic 20/60 amp clamp is 100 through them, and like 85 last time I got one on amazon. It's not wildly overpriced, and it's a small business with good customer support who sponsors industry training.

The 130 I spent on 10ft leads for the modis was WELL worth it.
 

richfinn

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Thanks for the suggestions guys. To summarize - it seems like a lot of the micro scopes are more or less the same chinese product but the uScope made significant improvements to the interface that are worth waiting for. Otherwise it makes sense to look at other auto specific products, with understanding that they will either cost many multiples or need to wait for a deal on secondary market.

Yep thats about it, I believe AESwave has some different firmware on the Uscope to make it better for automotive use and a nice plastic bumpcase

I find most secondhand scopemeters are lightly used to be honest, but the batteries are always shot and the leads missing or butchered. That might just be a UK thing though as mechanics buy them and never learn how to use it consistently. What they do with the leads is anybodys guess!!!

Another alternative if you want brand new might be the VISO scope as used by Danny on the diagnosedan youtube channel
 
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R-mm

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AES confirms new orders are 'estimated to ship in June'. Obviously there are some facts of life right now that create uncertainty.
 

Mr_B

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if you willing use a laptop then 2 channel pico will do hell of a lot for 200/300 bucks & far more intuitive to learn with heaps of online support .
Specs don't need be fancy for auto use but being easy learn is the key, most of the budget stuff is pretty useless when really counting on it to give you usable data and a right aggravation to use .
 

richfinn

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if you willing use a laptop then 2 channel pico will do hell of a lot for 200/300 bucks & far more intuitive to learn with heaps of online support .
Specs don't need be fancy for auto use but being easy learn is the key, most of the budget stuff is pretty useless when really counting on it to give you usable data and a right aggravation to use .

I have got access to a picoscope but I work out of a van and handhelds work great for me
 

2ndGearRubber

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if you willing use a laptop then 2 channel pico will do hell of a lot for 200/300 bucks & far more intuitive to learn with heaps of online support .
Specs don't need be fancy for auto use but being easy learn is the key, most of the budget stuff is pretty useless when really counting on it to give you usable data and a right aggravation to use .

If you're willing to forgo any automotive specialty settings, probe presets, etc. A cheap laptop based scope is decent. Something to consider if you are comfortable with using your shop computer or being careful with your home laptop. Learning curve is a major thing with a scope, gotta start with working cars before broken ones.
 
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R-mm

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Hey all

Managed to solve the problem that originally sent me scope shopping and got lost completing the engine rebuild. I'd like to better understand AC ripple in the charging system (and I'm sure in the future, many other waveforms) so I'm back on the market for an inexpensive scope, either mini form factor or iPhone connected. Is the AES still what you all would recommend?

https://www.aeswave.com/uScope-Basic-Kit-p9621.html
 

Mr_B

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If you're willing to forgo any automotive specialty settings, probe presets, etc. A cheap laptop based scope is decent. Something to consider if you are comfortable with using your shop computer or being careful with your home laptop. Learning curve is a major thing with a scope, gotta start with working cars before broken ones.

all you got do is setup and save settings, you can also import settings, other major plus is software is super intuitive and online support material good
 

Mr_B

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Hey all

Managed to solve the problem that originally sent me scope shopping and got lost completing the engine rebuild. I'd like to better understand AC ripple in the charging system (and I'm sure in the future, many other waveforms) so I'm back on the market for an inexpensive scope, either mini form factor or iPhone connected. Is the AES still what you all would recommend?

https://www.aeswave.com/uScope-Basic-Kit-p9621.html

for similar money you can buy a 2 channel pico that far far nicer to use & learn with, but need a laptop/tablet pair with it .
 

MikeF2316

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If you're only going to have one, there are some situations where you need at least 2 channels, because you need to see the relative timing of events. And of course, more is always better. I had an fairly new laptop sitting around, so I bought a Hantek 6022. To be honest it's bit of a pain to deploy.
 

Mr_B

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^ what the snapon part number on that .
i never seen one of them .
does look a handy 2 channel all in one package quick scope tool .
 

richfinn

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^ what the snapon part number on that .
i never seen one of them .
does look a handy 2 channel all in one package quick scope tool .

Snap-On/Sun LS2000

UEi also sold it under a different code number

If you get a good working one, upgrade the battery, I bought mine with a new battery pack 2 or 3 years ago for £100 on ebay UK

They aren't the fastest in the world and you can only see what you catch with triggering on the screen (no scrolling or enhancing) but I've successfully used it on CAN/LIN and with a current clanp to look at fuel pumps and relative compression with a cylinder synch
 
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R-mm

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I would prefer to keep a laptop/tablet out of the equation. Can someone give some automotive examples of two channel events?

Even things I've never attempted such as secondary ignition checks seem to be done with one channel. Newest car I work on myself is 1991.
 

American Locomotive

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I would prefer to keep a laptop/tablet out of the equation. Can someone give some automotive examples of two channel events?

Even things I've never attempted such as secondary ignition checks seem to be done with one channel. Newest car I work on myself is 1991.
Checking cam/crank sensor relationships. Correlating ignition events to cam/crank sensor events. Some TPS sensors have a two (or more) output signals.

Basically if you ever need to correlate to separate events with each other to help diagnostics. Or even just compare two signals simultaneously that should be the same/similar. I think a single channel scope would be of limited use for "modern" automobiles (anything with EFI, basically).
 

richfinn

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I would prefer to keep a laptop/tablet out of the equation. Can someone give some automotive examples of two channel events?

Even things I've never attempted such as secondary ignition checks seem to be done with one channel. Newest car I work on myself is 1991.

Two channels are great for comparisons for example you could put a voltage probe on channel 1 and a current clamp on channel 2 to look at injectors or ignition coils or look at relative compression synched to a particular cylinder to avoid removing spark plugs etc

Or voltage on both to see if crank and camshaft sensors are in synch to check valve timing

Also useful for CAN communications tests on a network of modules (this might not apply to your stable of cars obviously, but interesting if you get to play on later stuff)

Your correct that you can do a lot with one channel and if you go that route you can do a lot worse than the Velleman HPS10/HPS40

The issue with the nanoscopes is the connection to the scope is just not robust enough in our experience of using them in the field, the old 1990s handhelds with 4mm banana plugs are more rugged for automotive work

PICOs are awesomely powerful tools though, and I'm not just saying that because I'm a Brit!!!

Scott has a fantastic solution for the PICOscope to keep it safe in a workshop environment, the best I have seen anywhere on the net!!!!
 

MikeF2316

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I would prefer to keep a laptop/tablet out of the equation. Can someone give some automotive examples of two channel events?

Even things I've never attempted such as secondary ignition checks seem to be done with one channel. Newest car I work on myself is 1991.

We had a car tha t would randomly stall. So we put injector current on one channel, coil current on the second channel. When is stalled, we could see that the injectors were still pulsing after the coils stopped. So we knew the problem was in the ignition primary. If we had a 3rd and 4th channel we would have monitored voltage on those circuits as well.
 

2ndGearRubber

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We had a car tha t would randomly stall. So we put injector current on one channel, coil current on the second channel. When is stalled, we could see that the injectors were still pulsing after the coils stopped. So we knew the problem was in the ignition primary. If we had a 3rd and 4th channel we would have monitored voltage on those circuits as well.


You can do that with a single channel, it just takes more failures. Casting a wide net with multiple channels speeds things up obviously. Intermitants become a big pain, but for a nonpro the time disadvantages aren't as critical IMO.

There are times when I wish I has more than 4 channels, usually 5 or 6 would suffice for the widest of nets.
 
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R-mm

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Thanks guys this helps paint a picture of how a scope is used for auto functions. I am fairly sold on the uScope as a starter and can pass it to a friend if I really need to go deep but right now I see a lot of value in the one channel auto specific low price tool (over zero channels).
 
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