OT: need help with kitchen sink replacement

[crazybrit]

Off topic but searching here I see "prior art" so .....
I managed to crack our Corian sink It's built into the Corian counter. Two cracks, both from the drain across entire bottom of sink and one extends 2" up the side. I've seen claims you can epoxy but I don't believe it, especially given size of the cracks. I read a couple of threads where someone tried it on a much smaller crack and the repair failed. We dislike the kitchen and plan to do a full remodel in next few years but until then need a "temporary" fix.

The bowl dimensions (where it transitions from granite to white in attached photo) is 21" x 15 3/4". Counter depth is 25-1/4" The problem is that the undercabinet is only 23" wide.

Local plumbing store suggested this Elkay. The bowl size is pretty much spot on but it turns out the actual cut out is much larger than the bowl, 24-3/8" x 21-3/8" in order to accommodate the channels spot welded to the underside of the sink that attach the counter clamps. The specs are for a 30" wide cabinet. As I said, our cabinet is only 23" wide so the clamps are basically directly over the walls of the cabinet/into the adjacent cabinets. To the left is a dishwasher so I could maybe cut away the top of the cabinet wall to gain access but the right is a set of drawers including a pull out cutting board and the wall thickness is much larger.

I have several routers and carbide tipped bits and I'm fairly confident I can get the sink out but I'm concerned I'm opening up a pandoras box in terms of using this particular replacement and so want to pause and think before ordering it. Right now there is a 5g bucket under the sink which at least means the sink can be used.

A smaller sink isn't ideal (practically) but it's the obvious option but I'm not finding much, especially inexpensive.

There is a company www.backtoperfection.com (seems like a franchise) that supposedly cuts out the old sink and glues a new corian replacement (same size) but I cannot get them to give me an estimate. I suspect I won't like the price anyways and given we plan a remodel in the near-future I'm not sure it's money well spent.

Hoping someone here can help me think outside the box. Thanks!

 

[jar944]

Do you want a undmount? The one you linked to is a drop in. There should be room to mount the clamps.

 

[crazybrit]

Do you want a undmount? The one you linked to is a drop in. There should be room to mount the clamps.

Yes what I linked is a drop-in. An undermount would be fine. Anything would be fine Once I cut out the old sink I'm going to have a hole 21-1/4 by 16. I don't see how I'd get an undermount that fits that cutout into a 23" wide cabinet. Sinks designed for a 24" wide cabinet generally have a 18.5" wide cutout.

 

[jar944]

Yes what I linked is a drop-in. An undermount would be fine. Anything would be fine Once I cut out the old sink I'm going to have a hole 21-1/4 by 16. I don't see how I'd get an undermount that fits that cutout into a 23" wide cabinet. Sinks designed for a 24" wide cabinet generally have a 18.5" wide cutout.

Premium Undermount 18 Gauge Stainless Steel 23" Single Bowl 8" Deep Kitchen Sink with Grid and strainer - Bed Bath & Beyond - 30794520

Shop for Premium Undermount 18 Gauge Stainless Steel 23" Single Bowl 8" Deep Kitchen Sink with Grid and strainer. Free Shipping on Everything* at Bed Bath & Beyond - Your Online Home Improvement Outlet Store! - 30794520

www.overstock.com

 

[crazybrit]

Premium Undermount 18 Gauge Stainless Steel 23" Single Bowl 8" Deep Kitchen Sink with Grid and strainer - Bed Bath & Beyond - 30794520

Shop for Premium Undermount 18 Gauge Stainless Steel 23" Single Bowl 8" Deep Kitchen Sink with Grid and strainer. Free Shipping on Everything* at Bed Bath & Beyond - Your Online Home Improvement Outlet Store! - 30794520

www.overstock.com

How is this going to attach to the underside? Silicone isn't sufficient. The only option I could see would be to drill into the lip and screw it from the underside. Access is really tight along the sides.

 

[jar944]

How is this going to attach to the underside? Silicone isn't sufficient. The only option I could see would be to drill into the lip and screw it from the underside. Access is really tight along the sides.

Clips


Though I guess you could just screw through it since you plan on replacing it all anyway.

 

[crazybrit]

Clips


Though I guess you could just screw through it since you plan on replacing it all anyway.

There is no room to attach those pictured clamps. That's the issue. That undermount sink you linked to is 23" wide including the lip.

The cabinet is 23" wide.

There is also only about 3/4" clearance between the sides of the bowl and the edge of the cabinet.

Maybe I'm missing something?

 

[cmandp]

What is the thickness of the Corian counter top?

I don't think your Elkay will work either. The bowl would physically fit but the rails for the clips will need clearance too and they are going to be included in the cutout measurement. The cutout dimensions are 24-3/8" X 21-3/8". The 24-3/8" is already too wide for your 23" you have.

This is going to require finding just the right size sink to fit your available cabinet dimension. I bet the one that jar944 suggested could probably be glued or glued and screwed through the flange along the edges with something like 3m marine adhesive and then backed up by clips in the corners and front and back edges.

 

[cgrutt]

I would take a stab at repairing those cracks if it only temporary. Corian is solid surface resin you should be able to grind down cracks and fill with appropriate 2 part epoxy then sand flush. Or make repair on bottom side (which would be easier if you can remove counter and flip it over) cut good size channel say 3/8 - 1/2 wide and maybe 1/2 way through thickness and fill with 2 part resin let it overflow over surface if done on bottom side. Might even be able to cover the entire repair with fiberglass mat with compatible resin. Clean everything with acetone before applying epoxy / resin. Grind down repair flush with existing top near drain and use plumber's putty and new rubber gasket to reseat drain.

 

[jar944]

There is no room to attach those pictured clamps. That's the issue. That undermount sink you linked to is 23" wide including the lip.

The cabinet is 23" wide.

There is also only about 3/4" clearance between the sides of the bowl and the edge of the cabinet.

Maybe I'm missing something?

You would have to pull the counter and likely cut the cabinet sides for clearance.

This 22" will fit, but is surprisingly expensive for what it is.

 

[crazybrit]

What is the thickness of the Corian counter top?

I don't think your Elkay will work either. The bowl would physically fit but the rails for the clips will need clearance too and they are going to be included in the cutout measurement. The cutout dimensions are 24-3/8" X 21-3/8". The 24-3/8" is already too wide for your 23" you have.

This is going to require finding just the right size sink to fit your available cabinet dimension. I bet the one that jar944 suggested could probably be glued or glued and screwed through the flange along the edges with something like 3m marine adhesive and then backed up by clips in the corners and front and back edges.

Not sure on thickness. I can check.

Yes, the Elkay is problematic for the reasons you/I stated. It did occur to me that I could maybe route a slot into the corian for the rails and thereby just cut out the bowl. Maybe drill through the slot for bolts to drop down from the slot but still I'd need to get access to secure the bolts. It's a lot of unknowns.

As far as the undermount jar944 suggested. Clearance at the front is about as bad as the sides. Which leaves only the back where clips might be easily installed.

Screwing through the flange for the sides is the only option I can see but it's really tight. The bowl is 8" deep and there is only about a 3/4 gap between the bowl and the cabinet wall.

I would take a stab at repairing those cracks if it only temporary. Corian is solid surface resin you should be able to grind down cracks and fill with appropriate 2 part epoxy then sand flush. Or make repair on bottom side (which would be easier if you can remove counter and flip it over) cut good size channel say 3/8 - 1/2 wide and maybe 1/2 way through thickness and fill with 2 part resin let it overflow over surface if done on bottom side. Might even be able to cover the entire repair with fiberglass mat with compatible resin. Clean everything with acetone before applying epoxy / resin. Grind down repair flush with existing top near drain and use plumber's putty and new rubber gasket to reseat drain.

It's going to be a few years till we do a remodel. The counter is like 10ft long. I don't even want to think about removing it.

Like I said, everyone I've read who tried to epoxy this kind of crack failed.

I'm game for anything at this point though. If I'm going to try it, I need a backup for if it fails.

 

[crazybrit]

You would have to pull the counter and likely cut the cabinet sides for clearance.

Pulling the counter is going to be painful. It's a 10ft long L shape.

 

[cgrutt]

Fiberglass mat on underside embedded in something like West Systems two part epoxy. Clean throughly and sand to 80 grit before applying. If it doesn't work you're really no worse off than you are now.

 

[rlitman]

Hardware store (or West System, or JB) epoxy on Corian is a no-go. Corian is acrylic, not epoxy based, and epoxy peels from it. I've had reasonable luck gluing small pieces using CA gel. You can use a 2-part acrylic adhesive made for Corian on countertop cracks, but repairs to a Corian sink basin WILL fail due to thermal stresses (no matter what you reinforce it with), so yeah, replacement is in order as you assessed.

Have you considered a farmhouse sink? Installation requires cutting up the cabinet a bit (can be done with an oscillating multi-tool), but because it rests on the cabinet structure and doesn't hang from the countertop, it isn't a terribly difficult install (the layout is the hardest part, and many come with good templates and instructions), and you don't have to worry about front clearances. Plus you get the biggest basin possible.

Is the cabinet really 23", or is it a 24" wide cabinet with 23" of open space inside? Because a 23" wide cabinet is weird, but farmhouse sinks for 24" cabinets are easy to find.

 

[crazybrit]

It's 23" open space inside.

 

[cgrutt]

Sorry about West System's suggestion but there has to be a compatible resin/adhesive/filler for Corian they seam/repair these materials all the time. I get that it could fail but am only suggesting repair because it is temporary. Some of these sinks can cost nearly as much as a new counter.

 

[crazybrit]

@rlitman

The farmhouse isn't a bad idea but I'm getting the feeling I might want to pay someone to do it. I don't really want to as I view it as "lost money" since we're planning on a full kitchen remodel but I expect that's 2-3 years off.

 

[crazybrit]

Sorry about West System's suggestion but there has to be a compatible resin/adhesive/filler for Corian they seam/repair these materials all the time.

They fix chips and cracks in the counter but fixing the sink bowl is IMO all together different. Discussions I found on this were 90% you need to replace and 10% use epoxy which didn't work.

 

[cgrutt]

OK I'm done good luck.

 

[crazybrit]

OK I'm done good luck.

No worries. Thanks for throwing out some ideas.

 

[crazybrit]

How Much Is a Farmhouse Sink?

Installing a farmhouse sink is a bit different than putting in a normal sink. Here’s how much it’ll cost.

www.homeserve.com

"Average installation cost: $170"

 

[housewolf]

I wouldn’t loose much sleep over not being able to use the clips. Test fit a SS sink in the hole and “adjust” the flange with a rubber mallet if (probably will) needed so that the flange sits perfectly flat all the way around. Set the SS sink in the hole with some adhesive caulk under the flange then place an 80# bag of concrete in the sink. Clean up excess caulk. Next day your sink will be ready to connect.

ETA: I’m a (reitired) plumber and have had to use the method I described more than a few times over the years. It’s not plan A but I’ve always walked away feeling okay with it.

I put a cast iron farmhouse sink in our house when we built it. I’m not saying I regret it, but I’d definitely go with SS if I had to do it over again. I think it would be best to wait until you redo your kitchen before considering going that route. The cabinets will need to be modified significantly for this type sink

 

[crazybrit]

I wouldn’t loose much sleep over not being able to use the clips. Test fit a SS sink in the hole and “adjust” the flange with a rubber mallet if (probably will) needed so that the flange sits perfectly flat all the way around. Set the SS sink in the hole with some adhesive caulk under the flange then place an 80# bag of concrete in the sink. Clean up excess caulk. Next day your sink will be ready to connect.

@housewolf

I wondered about just using silicone and a weight. I asked Elkay and they said "no no no" but I suspected more liability. This was before I realized that the underside rails were also an issue.

I'd have to a) remove the rails from the underside of the sink -- they look to be tack welded on or b) route a groove for them in the counter for them to fall into.

If I'm not using the clips just silicone I don't want to do the full size cut out as that leaves only about 1/4" of the dropin sink top beyond the cut out.

My other concern was I'd read that sometimes the sink is bowed and you really need the clamps to get it flat.

The cheap dropin 25" sinks are 22ga (< $100). 20ga is $160.

 

[jar944]

How Much Is a Farmhouse Sink?

Installing a farmhouse sink is a bit different than putting in a normal sink. Here’s how much it’ll cost.

www.homeserve.com

"Average installation cost: $170"

I'd expect that to need a 1 (or maybe 2 in front of the $170 just for install. Retrofitting a farm house/apron front sink into a existing cabinet is not easy or quick..

 

[crazybrit]

I'd expect that to need a 1 (or maybe 2 in front of the $170 just for install. Retrofitting a farm house/apron front sink into a existing cabinet is not easy or quick..

I know. These sites are absurd. Plumber wanted $1600 to move a 18" length of copper pipe in a friends unfinished laundry. I helped him do it in a couple hours.

 

[rlitman]

Sorry about West System's suggestion but there has to be a compatible resin/adhesive/filler for Corian they seam/repair these materials all the time.

I'm a big fan of West System myself, but the issue is that acrylic moves quite a bit over changes in temperature. Boil some water for pasta, drain it in the sink, wash your hands and watch the crack come back. The problem is that any adhesive joint is a discontinuity in the material, and kitchen sinks experience thermal stresses that just aren't seen elsewhere in countertops.

@rlitman

The farmhouse isn't a bad idea but I'm getting the feeling I might want to pay someone to do it. I don't really want to as I view it as "lost money" since we're planning on a full kitchen remodel but I expect that's 2-3 years off.

Sure. We don't know what kind of experience you have with these sort of repairs, and you're in a bit of a difficult situation with this one. When a friend had a discontinued cast iron undermount sink crack, I found a stainless model from the same manufacturer that was made to the same dimensions, and that made for an easy swap without replacing or repairing her granite.

I built the cabinet under my 36" farmhouse sink from scratch, and that was an intensely complicated job, but mostly due to the design and layout to get it to match up to my other cabinets. My parents loved the concept so much that they retrofitted a 30" farmhouse sink into their cabinet, and that wasn't all that difficult at all. As a retrofit, you cut down the sides and front of the cabinet to the specified height, and basically install a shelf leger on each side that the sink sits on, with adjustment wedge shims to raise the sink to finished height. You already have the deck drilled for the faucet. The faucet will have to temporarily come out to cut the counter, but Corian is quite easy to cut and polish with woodworking tools. A bead of clear silicone to seal the undermount to the flange, and the sink itself covers the rough cut cabinet edges.

 

[housewolf]

@housewolf

I wondered about just using silicone and a weight. I asked Elkay and they said "no no no" but I suspected more liability. This was before I realized that the underside rails were also an issue.

I'd have to a) remove the rails from the underside of the sink -- they look to be tack welded on or b) route a groove for them in the counter for them to fall into.

If I'm not using the clips just silicone I don't want to do the full size cut out as that leaves only about 1/4" of the dropin sink top beyond the cut out.

My other concern was I'd read that sometimes the sink is bowed and you really need the clamps to get it flat.

The cheap dropin 25" sinks are 22ga (< $100). 20ga is $160.

I overlooked the part about the “rails” being on top of the counter. If you can’t find a sink that fits better, I wouldn’t have any problem taking a grinder to a ~$200 sink , but that’s just me

Like I said above, the sink (particularly a $200 one) may need some adjustment with a rubber mallet. Even at that, you may not get it perfect but it’ll be sooo much better than what you have now

 

[jar944]

and the sink itself covers the rough cut cabinet edges.

That depends on the sink, most need scribed to fit. Iirc only the Kohler has a apron that overlaps the faceframe.

 

[kbs2244]

I am in the repair camp
get a certified Corian installer to do the work
they will have the equipment, and experience
I expect they will rout to a clean surface and fill in

 

[zak77]

I was in a very similar situation years ago when my Corian sink cracked. It was a 2 bowl sink and wasnt very large so i took the opportunity to cut that out and install a copper farmhouse sink in it's place. Since the logistics of mounting it "under-mount" style were very difficult, i dropped it in. I had to cut the bottom cabinet just a little bit so that wasnt an issue. Since you are going to rehab the whole thing in a couple years i'd get a drop in sink to make do in the mean time. Just use a good silicone on the lip and it wont go anywhere.

 

[rlitman]

I'd expect that to need a 1 (or maybe 2 in front of the $170 just for install. Retrofitting a farm house/apron front sink into a existing cabinet is not easy or quick..

What the heck? Wouldn't the drain interfere with that middle piece, or is that drain off-center? Yeah, that's almost as crazy as my bespoke cabinet build. No, a retrofit sink install doesn't have to look like that at all. I wouldn't re-frame the cabinet doors or attach anything to the cabinet back. You need to find one shallow enough that it fits in the space where that fake "drawer" front is and takes its place, where the apron preferably hangs down to cover your cuts but doesn't go so low as to interfere with the existing doors. Usually there's maybe 2" of face-frame wood between the doors and the "drawer" cutout, and you'll have to slice that down.

That depends on the sink, most need scribed to fit. Iirc only the Kohler has a apron that overlaps the faceframe.

They're not the only ones, but yes, they do make one like that, and yes, that's the easy way to go. And I'm not suggesting we search for a difficult option. This example requires scribing the bottom cut (the overhang does make it harder to see your mistakes), but can be made to hide most of the sides:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09T5PX7NY/?tag=atomicindus08-20

The Kohler Whitehaven might be perfect (depending on how deep you need it to be), but yeah, that's spendy.
Here's a stainless option (again, I'm not sure if the apron bottom requires a scribed cut, but the sides are mostly covered):

Ruvati 16-Gauge Stainless Steel 24 in. Single Bowl Farmhouse Apron Workstation Kitchen Sink RVH9020 - The Home Depot

Ruvati's Verona collection combines the best of both worlds: a functional workstation sink and a bold stainless steel apron-front installation. The workstation design features a built-in ledge that provides

www.homedepot.com

This also covers the side cuts:

MR Direct Stainless Steel 23-3/4 in. Single Bowl Farmhouse Apron Front Kitchen Sink 408-18 - The Home Depot

This apron-style stainless steel sink features a large single basin. Though reminiscent of yesterday's sinks, its bold front flaunts the shimmering stainless steel construction of today. This model is

www.homedepot.com

I know. These sites are absurd. Plumber wanted $1600 to move a 18" length of copper pipe in a friends unfinished laundry. I helped him do it in a couple hours.

Plumbers... <sigh>

 

[crazybrit]

I overlooked the part about the “rails” being on top of the counter. If you can’t find a sink that fits better, I wouldn’t have any problem taking a grinder to a ~$200 sink , but that’s just me

Like I said above, the sink (particularly a $200 one) may need some adjustment with a rubber mallet. Even at that, you may not get it perfect but it’ll be sooo much better than what you have now

My gut is telling me that the drop in (and bodge the rails) is the low-hanging fruit option here.

I have the skills (and tools) to the farmhouse but my wife is getting frustrated with the situation plus we're planning on doing a full remodel in a couple of years. I also have other projects (like finishing the table for my mill) that I'd prefer to spend time on.

Dayton® Stainless Steel 25" x 22" x 8-1/16" 1-Hole Single Bowl Drop-in Sink

Dayton® offers a complete line of stainless steel sinks, along with drains and accessories. From drop-in installation to undermount and dual mount styles, Dayton sinks come in an array of sizes and bowl configurations. You'll also find packages to meet every budget. Our products are backed with...

www.elkay.com

Dayton® Stainless Steel 25" x 22" x 6-9/16" 1-Hole Single Bowl Drop-in Sink

Dayton® offers a complete line of stainless steel sinks, along with drains and accessories. From drop-in installation to undermount and dual mount styles, Dayton sinks come in an array of sizes and bowl configurations. You'll also find packages to meet every budget. Our products are backed with...

www.elkay.com

The second is only 6.5" deep which is probably going to be an issue. Also 22ga. The plus side is that there is a returned one in good condition on Amazon Warehouse for $49 (list is $83). If it goes pear-shaped that's easy to write off.

I'll probably get the DSE125221. it's 8" deep and 20ga and I want to re-attach the garbage disposal. $166 online though there are a couple open box on eBay for less with best offer which I might make an offer on.

 

[jar944]

What the heck? Wouldn't the drain interfere with that middle piece, or is that drain off-center? Yeah, that's almost as crazy as my bespoke cabinet build. No, a retrofit sink install doesn't have to look like that at all. I wouldn't re-frame the cabinet doors or attach anything to the cabinet back. You need to find one shallow enough that it fits in the space where that fake "drawer" front is and takes its place, where the apron preferably hangs down to cover your cuts but doesn't go so low as to interfere with the existing doors. Usually there's maybe 2" of face-frame wood between the doors and the "drawer" cutout, and you'll have to slice that down.

OBE at this point but assuming a standard partial overlay cabinet with 1.5" face frames you have about 6.5" from top of the cabinet to the top of the door. Even going to 1/4" clearance between the door and apron only leaves room for a 6.25 deep apron. Something like the Ikea drop in would work, but I'm personally not a fan of the look.

HAVSEN Apron front sink, white, 25x19" - IKEA

HAVSEN Apron front sink, white, 25x19" HAVSEN apron front sink is a beautiful detail in your traditional kitchen, and it also fits in a kitchen island. You can spend more time on other things thanks to its easy-care ceramic surface. Easy to clean, with soft rounded corners.

www.ikea.com

 

[crazybrit]

OBE

Order of British Empire?
Other Buggers Efforts?
Old Bald Ead?

Overtaken By Events?

 

[Stuart in MN]

If it's a Corian sink underneath a Corian countertop, the two may have been bonded together during installation so they are essentially one solid piece. As a result, removing the sink may be a difficult process.

 

[rlitman]

If it's a Corian sink underneath a Corian countertop, the two may have been bonded together during installation so they are essentially one solid piece. As a result, removing the sink may be a difficult process.

Corian cuts as easily as hardwood, and can be worked with saws and routers without trouble. The dust does smell bad though.

 

[crazybrit]

Corian cuts as easily as hardwood, and can be worked with saws and routers without trouble. The dust does smell bad though.

@rlitman on that topic.

I've read carbide tipped minimum for saw/router. Solid carbide better.

For saws I've seen it suggested that the blade has to be triple chip.

I'm not sure if cutting this out or routing it out is the best approach.

 

[crazybrit]

If it's a Corian sink underneath a Corian countertop, the two may have been bonded together during installation so they are essentially one solid piece. As a result, removing the sink may be a difficult process.

No clue on the original installation but supposedly they can be repaired by cutting off the old sink and gluing a new sink on. I mentioned the company that supposedly does this repair in the OP but I couldn't get an estimate out of them (they had me send photos).

I'm not worried about cutting the sink out. Cracking the top would be suboptimal.

 

[rlitman]

@rlitman on that topic.

I've read carbide tipped minimum for saw/router. Solid carbide better.

For saws I've seen it suggested that the blade has to be triple chip.

I'm not sure if cutting this out or routing it out is the best approach.

I've cut it with plain steel blades on my scroll saw (quality Bosch blades made for woodworking), and it doesn't seem to dull them significantly. There's no need for solid carbide router bits, and I've gotten pretty good results with my ATBR table saw blade, though a TCG should give a cleaner corner if you've got one. But you'll be easing the edge on any sharp corners anyway, so it's not all that important.

Even though it's mostly acrylic, it doesn't grab onto saw teeth and suddenly get cracks that run away from you like you could expect with plexiglass (clear acrylic sheet) when being cut with a saw. At worst, you'll get some minor chipping where the teeth exit.

 

[PoorUB]

Temporary repair for the cracks? Sand the area around the outside of the cracks and smear Seal-All over the cracks. Give it three four coats letting it dry between coats. If it leaks, give it another try! Beats the heck out of trying to mount a sink that doesn't fit!

Seal All