Out of Plumb Post (Long)

[Lou N]

All,

I have a post that supports our wrap around deck that is out of plumb by a 1/4" in one direction and approx 1/8" in the other direction. The other major issue is the lack of connection at the base.

Background: House is 16 years old, we are the third owners, and we are situated in middle TN.

In the attached pictures you can see where I recently replaced a garage door into the basement (must be a southern thing) with a properly build wall. The span there is 16' from the post in question to the right side. There are five 2x12's supporting this span. On the left side of the picture the span between posts is 8' with two 2x12's forming the beam.

Unfortunately when they connected the support posts to the beams they toe nailed and faced nailed everything together instead of notching the tops of the posts.

I'm thinking that I could add another 6"x6" post in the middle of the 16' span, properly anchored at the top and bottom for additional support.

As for the out of plumb post, I'm thinking of sistering a 2x6 to each side, anchoring them to the slab and using proper brackets at the top.

Removing and replacing this post seems like a big job given the way it's connected at the moment. I'm aware that there are joist hangers that should have been used too, I will address that as well.

The beam is level and there is no sign of sagging.

So what are the thoughts on this idea?

Thanks,
Lou

 

[Shiftless]

That would never pass inspection around here. What other sketchy stuff is going on in that house?

 

[TRWham]

So it's been there un-anchored for 16 years and is only 1/4" out, and the beam it supports is "level and there is no sign of sagging." What problem are you trying to solve?

 

[Ben W]

Agree with TRWham.

 

[Lou N]

Shiftless, well there have been a few other issues, but in general the house is built pretty well - compared to other I have seen. Never had a house that was perfect.

TRWham, basically trying to prevent a problem from occurring. I see your point, but it bothers me that it wasn't done right to begin with, so I was looking to improve, not necessarily solve.

 

[Milton Shaw]

You are lucky the post stayed that straight. Should not ever be a problem unless that bend in the post keeps getting more pronounced. If it makes a difference to you just sister it with 2/6 and it would never fail.

 

[Bretny]

In all reality that prob exciedes the support that a 6x6 can actually support and prob should go all the way from the ground to the roof. Or have a 4x6 on each side that supports the upper deck.

Yes a support in the middle would help greatly.

The next question is what is that post sitting on?

 

[Lou N]

Re: Out of Plumb Post (Long) Bowed Post

I should have described the problem better: the post is bowed in the center which is causing the out of plumb issue.

I'll probably sister some 2x6s on each side and add another support on the 16' span.

What would be the best way to anchor the top and bottom of the new post?

Thanks...

 

[TractorJeff]

I bet that Post is pressure treated which made it "Sun Warp", not bow from the weight!

 

[Bretny]

Sistering up will not pull it back streight...unless you have a bunch of strong C clamps. It's a 6x6 so your not even goingnri pull it with another 6x6.

 

[TRWham]

Okay, I took a closer look at the photos and now see this as a much bigger problem than just a bowed post, so I will revise my earlier opinion. That beam to post connection is truly FUBAR and a good example of why sudden deck failures occur. Adding posts is a reasonable approach, but unless they are very close to this connection, you also need to add some sort of bracket to hold that end together. I really think the best approach may be to get an engineer to look at the entire deck and recommend a complete solution, especially if the rest of it looks anything like this particular area.

 

[zak77]

I looks to me that 2x6's make up that beam that spans the 16', at least when compared to the 6x6 post holding it up. 5 2x12's supporting a porch for 16' is greatly over-built but it is not causing that support to bow, it's just the nature of wood, especially pressure treated. There is no point sistering in 2x6's because it will not help with this situation. I also wouldnt go changing the connection method until you really starting noticing real separation. That may be a big ole can o worms.

I've seen some decks, porches, garages, and even houses built with much less structural support and they stood for decades. I'm not saying it's the correct way to construct them but they didnt fall down.

 

[jives]

Note that the beams are 2 x 6, not 2 x 12. I think there is a relatively easy solution here for peace of mind. First, affix some sort of retrofit post-to-concrete bracket. Simpson Strong Tie has some. Second, screw a full length 2 x 6 on either side of the post that snugs up under the beams. This will create a ledge for the beams to rest on. Use metal brackets to secure the beam to the ledge. It can be prettied up with a full wrap of the post, and strengthened with diagonal post-to-beam bracing.

 

[rusty1]

...a 1/4 or 1/8th inch in 8' tall post ain't nothn,..better not check the whole house, you mite be surprised.

 

[ford33]

I own a property in middle Tennessee with a deck that is constructed similar to what the OP has shown. In many parts of Tennessee there was no building code enforcement in the 1990's and even today. It's a wild west mix of deck construction types and safety there. I live in Chicago where deck construction is controlled and inspected after people were critically injured or died when their deck failed. This frequently happens when many people are partying on their deck and it just collapses. High school and college graduations time brings out the news stories of deck deaths.

OP you likely have several safety issues with that deck design. Sure, some people on here will say that decks like that are standing for decades and don't need modern construction techniques. I don't agree. Check out video's on "deck collapse or failure" and you will see this type of construction used. There is a reason why today's building code no longer allows this construction. It is a real possibility that deck will pull away from the home ledger board to rim joist connection or the front of the deck will slide down the posts. Those nails just are not designed to last decades and surely will pull out of the wood when the deck shifts and the forces pull on nails. It will pull apart like a zipper. Those loads on the joists are transferred to the few nails holding them to the post.

I did not wish to tear down my deck in Tennessee because of the design flaws. Instead I addressed each flaw to the best method available. Fortunately it was not expensive but did require six weekends of work for me to complete.

OP consider these solutions:

1. Is the ledger board of the deck nailed to the house? If yes, and no structural screws or Simpson deck to house ties are used then fix this right away. It is difficult to know if the ledge or rim joist of the house is rotted so adding lots of screws to every joist bay into the home and a Simpson strong tie at the ends will help keep the deck from pulling away from the home when the front collapses. If you can try to determine if the wood near the house is rotted. Today, you would need to place flashing at this junction to reduce this rotting.

2. Next address how the front deck rim joist is attached to the posts. My deck floor joists were nailed to the rim joist and then to the post so all the joists attached to the rim joists were held on by about 8-10 nails at each post. I didn't have a beam under the joists. It doesn't appear you have a beam under the floor joists. I added 2x10 double beams under the joists and built a 4x6 block of wood about 18" long and attached it to each of the posts and beneath the beam. These blocks have two carriage bolts through the block and post. They are designed to support the beam above it using two 3/8" dia. carriage bolts. The beam also has two carriage bolts through it and into the post. It's not perfect and not to current code but better than relying on nails alone. In effect the beam carries the load of the floor joists and it is then loading the posts and not the rim joist carrying the load.

3. You need to consider how safe those floor joists are fastened to the ledge and rim joist with nails. Nails corrode and weaken over time. I added a Simpson joist hanger to each joist at the rim and ledge and used the Simspon galvanized nails and drove them in with a palm nailer. It required over a hundred nails.

I wish you well.

 

[Lynden]

It is a real possibility that deck will pull away from the home ledger board to rim joist connection or the front of the deck will slide down the posts.

We still don't know if there is a ledger board attached to the house. My deck joists are extensions of the second floor floor joists. If OP's deck joists are like mine or if his deck joists have been properly sistered onto the second floor floor joists then a lot of the weight of the deck is cantilevered from the house and collapse is much less likely.

 

[Shiftless]

Judging from the sketchy way the post and beam and deck joists were joined, I’d be quite surprised if the deck joists were properly sistered back along the floor joists for a cantilever.
For the ledger board, I’d expect to see a 2x6 nailed to the siding hopefully to the rim joist but maybe just the siding.

 

[Lynden]

Judging from the sketchy way the post and beam and deck joists were joined, I’d be quite surprised if the deck joists were properly sistered back along the floor joists for a cantilever.
For the ledger board, I’d expect to see a 2x6 nailed to the siding hopefully to the rim joist but maybe just the siding.

OP should check to see if there is a ledger board. We can't tell from the pictures but if the deck roof framing is an extension of the house roof framing, I think there is a good chance that the deck joists are tied into the second floor floor joists. If the deck is cantilevered this might explain why the support posts are only toenailed.

 

[wrenchguy]

That would never pass inspection around here. What other sketchy stuff is going on in that house?

THIS, but I'd wait for the rainy season and check it again. It'll be all good then for inspection!

 

[theoldwizard1]

Removing and replacing this post seems like a big job given the way it's connected at the moment. I'm aware that there are joist hangers that should have been used too, I will address that as well.

Do it right. Support everything with temporary 4x4. Remove the post. You will like need to dig and pour a proper footing. Install a post base into the footing.

You may need to install a couple of oversized 1/4" plates of steel between the top of the post and the bottom of that connection just to make sure it is well supported. You need to check with an inspector to make sure exactly what kind of connection is required there.

 

[Dustball]

The beam is level and there is no sign of sagging.

So what are the thoughts on this idea?

Thanks,
Lou

Are you sure about that? I can take your picture of the front showing the railing and put a straight line between the two ground posts and see a sag where the unsupported 2nd story middle post is.

Considering that it's all supporting the roof too, I'd get proper posts under the beams wherever there are posts on the second story.

 

[Shiftless]

Are you sure about that? I can take your picture of the front showing the railing and put a straight line between the two ground posts and see a sag where the unsupported 2nd story middle post is.

Considering that it's all supporting the roof too, I'd get proper posts under the beams wherever there are posts on the second story.

Good advice!
Here is what we’re talking about. I drew the upper red line. Sure looks like a sag where you’d expect it to be...right in the middle where the roof support post bears on the beam.
Enlarge this thumbnail and see what I’m talking about.