Overcoming inertia

[danix]

Hello. Long time listener, first time caller.

I moved to the Raleigh NC area almost 3 years ago, and bought a house on 3+ acres of woods in what I thought was county (not city).
Well it is, but a long series of surprise revelations have come about:

• I am in the county but subject to city zoning restrictions and guidelines
• I have found a grand total of ONE builder willing to build a garage with the above restrictions. They just do garages, so anything extra like plumbing, attaching to the house, and beyond is out of scope for them.
• Additionally I am in a watershed area and have to go through tons of extra permitting and work (engineering, soil analysis, nutrient mitigation, etc)

Because of the above, it's been a slow/stalled process and it just has been discouraging.
After my first expensive quote, I reached out to a forum member here, saw his garage, and talked to his builders, who told me they couldn't possibly do anything for less than 2x the quote I had already received. Shell shock and more inertia followed.

So, it's a new year. I'm going to try to move forward, with whatever builder I can get, and hope for the best.
I'm going to document it here, ask for suggestions, and will happily research threads you recommend (or that I come across).

My need/want is for a 3 car garage with at least one bay high enough for a lift. That's about it. Sure, I've love to have a big open upstairs for a music studio or a future apartment, but I can only do that if it gets attached to the house, which this builder will not do (they just do garages).

Local guidelines state that I can have a max of 1200 sq ft for a detached structure (or structures) and that includes upstairs area, so 800 sq ft down and 400 sq ft up are an example. Because of this, I've settled on a design of 40 wide by 26 deep, which keeps me below the limit and allows for my other shed on the property. The upstairs of the structure will be using trusses that are storage rated only (there are different trusses that get used for residential, so you can't just sneak in an upstairs I guess?)

First question. Is a 4" slab with mesh going to be enough? Builder referred me to the lift manufacturer, but of course I haven't looked at lifts yet because, well, no garage...

 

[Redneckvtek]

Sounds like we are on a very similar Journey, Perhaps we can benefit mutually as we both explore this path? I am also in Raleigh and in a Watershed area, however (thankfully) I am in the county and not ETJ Raleigh.

My experience has been that most of the lift vendors assume you are cutting an old floor and replacing it with a small cube of thicker concrete in order to support the lift. If the slab is "new" and you are sure of the quality and presence of reinforcement, I would be comfortable with 4-6". However, what I have seen done in the past, particularly if you know you will be putting a lift in, is to pre-plan and dig a small trench below where the lift will be that is 8" thick.

One thing my lift installer told me is that its best to not go any deeper than you have to (in addition to extra cost) incase you damage or otherwise have an issue with the concrete anchor during install. If your installer can drill the hole through the concrete than you have the option of pounding it through into the dirt below and trying again. Not sure if this is really that critical, I've put in 2 lifts so 32x holes and anchors and had no failures

 

[danix]

Hey neighbor! Yeah my experience in dealing with the watershed issue when doing our deck (permitting process took close to a year) will likely help you.

I know some lifts can be on casters and while I plan on keeping the lift in one place, what if I want to move it? I guess I should do some pre-research on lifts which is a whole other rabbit hole.

 

[pcmeiners]

Why not scrap the 400Sft upstairs, add that space to the downstairs design area; just build so you have enough height/load specs above the ceiling joists for a room or add structural members after final inspection. Once you get the final inspection, you can proceed with the room above.
Then again, having a garage attached is so so convenient. I need to go into my attached garage roughly 3-4 times a day even though I not doing anything in the garage. I would still build with the idea of a second floor for a not so legal room. Can not be only 1 builder willing to do an attached.

 

[Redneckvtek]

Hey neighbor! Yeah my experience in dealing with the watershed issue when doing our deck (permitting process took close to a year) will likely help you.

I know some lifts can be on casters and while I plan on keeping the lift in one place, what if I want to move it? I guess I should do some pre-research on lifts which is a whole other rabbit hole.

Now it sounds like you are discussing a 4 post lift. This is a completely different ball game - some of these don't even need to be attached to the concrete at all and can be relocated easily. 4" + Fiber is definitely enough for a 4 post. The trouble with the concrete and the 2 post is when you have an unbalanced load.

 

[danix]

Why not scrap the 400Sft upstairs, add that space to the downstairs design area; just build so you have enough height/load specs above the ceiling joists for a room or add structural members after final inspection. Once you get the final inspection, you can proceed with the room above.
Then again, having a garage attached is so so convenient. I need to go into my attached garage roughly 3-4 times a day even though I not doing anything in the garage. I would still build with the idea of a second floor for a not so legal room. Can not be only 1 builder willing to do an attached.

Exactly, that's where the 40x26 comes in (1040 sq ft).
My current estimate for the 40x26 detached is right around $115k. I've been told by a different builder that they "couldn't possibly do anything that begins with a 2" for this size with an upstairs that would be attached to the house.
I'm going to keep looking and talking to people once I narrow down my specs.

 

[danix]

Now it sounds like you are discussing a 4 post lift. This is a completely different ball game - some of these don't even need to be attached to the concrete at all and can be relocated easily. 4" + Fiber is definitely enough for a 4 post. The trouble with the concrete and the 2 post is when you have an unbalanced load.

Yes, I realized after reading a bit that 2 post lifts need to be fastened, 4 post can be movable. I guess with a 2 post if I don't like the location the worst case is I have to drill new holes/anchors and fill the old ones. Reading up on lifts shows me a lot of variation in specs - Rotary is super detailed, the off-brands just say things like "6" thick at 3500 psi reinforced with fiberglass or steel (4" thick for vehicles 9000LB and below)"

 

[pcmeiners]

"Exactly, that's where the 40x26 comes in (1040 sq ft)."

I have a (2) door 1080sft garage (36x30), for me it is big. Basically I purchased a garage with an attached house , though the attached house needs more work than I wanted to see at the time of purchase... like Radon, a completely heating and cooling system, insulation, etc etc etc . I love it though

 

[jonesg]

"My need/want is for a 3 car garage with at least one bay high enough for a lift. That's about it. Sure, I've love to have a big open upstairs for a music studio or a future apartment, "

thats a garagemahal.

 

[wssix99]

• Additionally I am in a watershed area and have to go through tons of extra permitting and work (engineering, soil analysis, nutrient mitigation, etc)

I wonder if you could avoid all of this by making your garage an actual floating "boat". Design it as a barge and then anchor it to the ground like crazy. (Like a river boat casino.) Maybe you could avoid everything and build as big as you want???

My need/want is for a 3 car garage with at least one bay high enough for a lift. That's about it. Sure, I've love to have a big open upstairs for a music studio or a future apartment, but I can only do that if it gets attached to the house, which this builder will not do (they just do garages).

If you have land, I would build one story. By far the most expensive part of any building is the exterior wall. If you are building a rectangle, then it is what it is. You double your square footage on the same footprint by going vertical, but the construction costs increase on these expensive walls as you go higher. Put in a music studio, apartment - whatever. If you keep it on the ground level, you will waste less money if land use isn't a factor. (If you are in a densely populated City, then you need to go vertical and eat that expense.)

...So, with those economics in mind - if you really have a need for more space for future use, its probably best to build your garage now and make it a garage. Put an addition on to your house in the future for extra living space. That addition will probably also require less exterior wall for the square footage you are adding (compared to building a new, separate box) and the construction costs should be much less on a square footage basis.

That being said, if you are looking to have 'covert' activity go on in your garage that you don't want within earshot of your main home, I recommend going underground. (Again, after construction of the main building.) Hire a good tunneling crew from Germany that will keep things real quiet:

(there are different trusses that get used for residential, so you can't just sneak in an upstairs I guess?)

In addition to load bearing capacity there are deflection limits that are designed into residential floors that would not apply to something like a storage platform. Floors for living spaces have extra design elements to keep them from deflecting/bending too far and feeling too "bouncy."

First question. Is a 4" slab with mesh going to be enough? Builder referred me to the lift manufacturer, but of course I haven't looked at lifts yet because, well, no garage...

You should figure out the lift before you settle on a floor. Most lift manufacturers now are requiring more than 4". As pointed out above, there are big differences between 2 post and 4 post requirements.

In addition to the thickness, you need to plan out your saw cut joints so any bolting is not near cracks in the floor.

You'll also want to figure out how long you are going to live at this place. 2 post lifts are hell and get worse every year that you age...

 

[Youngandfree]

Exactly, that's where the 40x26 comes in (1040 sq ft).
My current estimate for the 40x26 detached is right around $115k. I've been told by a different builder that they "couldn't possibly do anything that begins with a 2" for this size with an upstairs that would be attached to the house.
I'm going to keep looking and talking to people once I narrow down my specs.

Can you make it close enough as a detached but attach a breezeway roof connection to the house and get passed the 1200sq ft limit?

 

[danix]

Can you make it close enough as a detached but attach a breezeway roof connection to the house and get passed the 1200sq ft limit?

So, yes a breezeway works. Where it gets complicated is that I wanted the 2nd story of the house (where there is currently a window into unfinished attic space) to become a doorway into the garage upper story. All that adds a lot of cost and complexity.
I think I'm OK with the detached - as someone pointed out, 40x26 is plenty big compared to the nothing I have now.

 

[nadogail]

Maybe you need to find a contractor that does "Room Additions" and general remodeling. After the large "room" or Wing is added to your house it gets remodeled into a garage with an overhead studio.

 

[jonesg]

So, yes a breezeway works. Where it gets complicated is that I wanted the 2nd story of the house (where there is currently a window into unfinished attic space) to become a doorway into the garage upper story. All that adds a lot of cost and complexity.
I think I'm OK with the detached - as someone pointed out, 40x26 is plenty big compared to the nothing I have now.

and a flying bridge breezeway ?

 

[jonesg]

2 post lifts are hell and get worse every year that you age...

really ?

 

[dave*99]

really ?

The lifts stay exactly the same. Your ability to get down on your knees and adjust the arms gets worse as you age. As I’ve just started to notice.

 

[CraigStu]

There a quite a few lift types where there is almost no need to have specific concrete specs. Decide how you will use the lift and then look at types. As you know a 2 post needs specific concrete. A 4 post can generally use standard garage concrete. Then there are scissor lifts that, like a 4 post use standard concrete.

6000 LB MID-RISE SCISSOR LIFT

6000 LB MID-RISE SCISSOR LIFT

www.tooltopia.com

Disadvantage is the center of the car is pretty well blocked but they are relatively inexpensive and easy to move bay to bay. This is another style scissor. Nice that there are no arms to reach and position but may be limited as to what cars it will fit.

AMGO Hydraulics Specialty Lifts | Best Buy Auto Equipment

Looking for car lifts to fit in a small shop? Browse our inventory of AMGO hydraulics specialty car lifts, designed to prioritize space and functionality without risking quality.

www.bestbuyautoequipment.com

BTW this website has a really good selection of lifts w/ pictures of each. So go to the top and click on each category and look around to get a good picture of types available.

 

[danix]

From my cursory research, a 2 post lift is what I want as I plan on the lift for working on the car (vs storing the car in the air and putting another under it). Seems that most 4 post you drive onto, so that means you can't work on brakes or suspension. mid-rise lifts you can't as easily work on exhaust or transmission. So I think figuring out where the lift will go, and reinforcing that section of the slab is the way to go.

 

[danix]

I'm going to chat with a couple of general contractors as to how difficult/costly the attachment to the house would be. Once attached the garage becomes an addition, and all restrictions related to size and location are out the window.

Putting some photos here to illustrate.

Option 1 is the detached structure, would be 40x26x12.

Option 2 can be larger/wider/whatever as long as it's attached to the house. The existing front porch would connect a breezeway - that part is easy - but as in the last picture, I would like that upstairs window to become a doorway into the garage upstairs.
I think option 2 is going to cost a lot more money and be a lot more difficult, so in the last few months I've been talking myself into and revisiting option 1.

 

[Youngandfree]

I wouldn't build a breezeway to the front porch, just attach it to the end of the house, since cost is becoming a factor.

 

[wssix99]

I would like that upstairs window to become a doorway into the garage upstairs.I think option 2 is going to cost a lot more money and be a lot more difficult, so in the last few months I've been talking myself into and revisiting option 1.

There shouldn't be anything about this that would be more difficult than a non-garage addition except all your walls and ceiling in the garage would need to be fire-rated. That probably only means extra layers of drywall. You'll also need insulation in the ceiling, but those should be your only garage-specific adders. If you are talking about having an opening from the 2nd floor into a mezzanine in the working space of the garage or any direct access from the 2nd floor to the garage that won't be allowed by code without some additional crazy-expensive stuff.

Any time you go above one story, your costs per square foot go up incrementally. (garage or not)

Seems that most 4 post you drive onto, so that means you can't work on brakes or suspension.

This is not correct. There are accessory jacks for this work:

So I think figuring out where the lift will go, and reinforcing that section of the slab is the way to go.

This actually can cause the floor to crack. 2 post lifts do not need reinforcing or thickened areas. The vertical stresses they put on the slab are no more than parking a truck in your garage. There are other threads that explain the physics of this here, so I won't rehash it.

You won't see lift manuals instruct this kind of thing because its problematic and a bad idea. You will see the instructions call for a continuous slab of a uniform thickness for new construction. This is what a 2 post lift needs and what will perform the best.

 

[Dig Doug]

If you’re sold on a music room add a breeze way (BW ) and make the inside of the BW your music room. Remove the window add a door add some dormers to match your existing roof line.

I would not add a mezz to the garage. If you need storage get some 10ft tall pallet racking - Shelves to keep it clutter free, you can go 8‘ or 12‘ wide and they come in 42“ or 48“ deep both are standard - pallet sits in beware or on top of the cross beams. Wire mesh is the actual shelf material. Rolling ladder makes easy access - you could keep your tool boxes below the 1st shelf and /or add some extra cross beams and plywood for a bench tons of ideas.

make the garage tall enough that the A frame can **** into the garage wall. Add a nice set of double doors or an over size door and a window system to the garage wall that opens to BW ground floor. That BW ground space can become be a nice patio, outdoor kitchen add a fire place and a TV & heater and it becomes almost all weather man cave !

you can finish the music room at a later date, add sound board / sound barrier after the garage built is completed

I would position the lift at the far end (away from the house) in the garage. That will keep smells - oils grease and what not away from the breeze way

I would also make a thicker area ( 6 -7 inch ) in the concrete to go with a lift - At best it’s only an extra yard of concrete during the slab pour - maybe add an electrical outlet in a floor box

 

[CraigStu]

I would not attach it. See how your house has 3 roof lines and each is a bit lower than the one to it's left? In my mind that is the way it should be aesthetically. But adding on an extension that is near the same width as your entire house....personal opinion only, but for me, that would completely ruin what is a beautiful house as is.

 

[dave*99]

I would not attach it. See how your house has 3 roof lines and each is a bit lower than the one to it's left? In my mind that is the way it should be aesthetically. But adding on an extension that is near the same width as your entire house....personal opinion only, but for me, that would completely ruin what is a beautiful house as is.

Now that you mention it....
I saw a house like that. A colonial with an attached 2 car garage set back a bit from the front of the house. Plus an addition on the garage.
It always looked odd to me.

 

[rust in the eye]

Two thoughts based on experience building my shop/garage.
Stick build the roof structure. I hate trusses. It was an easy out for my architecht as the truss company draws them rather than the architecht drawing the roof framing. Lesson learned.
My attic is a worthless spider web of 2 x 4s and the ceiling useless to support anything. Even blowing the insulation up there was a PITA.

For the lift's post attachment points simply dig a deeper area for the pads, mine are 4' x 4' which allowed some latitude when actually placing the lift. Hopefully one of yours won't fall into the place where a 50 year old maple once stood.

 

[danix]

Went down the rabbit hole of 4 post vs 2 post lifts and stalled out again. I think the 2 post is better for doing actual work, the 4 post requires less from the slab and is better for storing the car (which in my case seems to be 90% use case) so I am now leaning towards 4 post.
I'll update more tomorrow, need to get this going asap.

 

[msharley]

and a flying bridge breezeway ?

With a Widow's Walk?

 

[Fixr]

Went down the rabbit hole of 4 post vs 2 post lifts and stalled out again. I think the 2 post is better for doing actual work, the 4 post requires less from the slab and is better for storing the car (which in my case seems to be 90% use case) so I am now leaning towards 4 post.
I'll update more tomorrow, need to get this going asap.

My opinion is that a 4 post is mostly good for storing a car, doing an oil change or pulling a transmission on an RWD vehicle. For almost any other actual work, I'd rather have a two post, even though I have to get down on the floor to set the lifting pads. I very quickly got tired of having to contort myself around the structure of a 4 post and the bridge jacks in order to reach just about everything I needed to work on, along with having to constantly duck way down while moving around under the vehicle.

4 post is probably OK if you don't do much beyond oil changes and brake jobs.

Full disclosure: I don't have room for either for my personal vehicles, so my opinions are based on my experience working on cars for a living before I retired.

 

[Zeke]

Let's do some creative thinking. You say you found out that although you are in the 'country', you are under dity jurisdiction. Well, cities haver rules for cities. They have to accomodate the whole enchilada. Being away from the city on a large piece of land (compared to a house lot), how hard would it be to apply for a variance?

A bit of advice: if this seems remotely possible, do not do this alone. There are 'advisors' that do this for a living.

 

[ybnormal]

This is not correct. There are accessory jacks for this work:



This actually can cause the floor to crack. 2 post lifts do not need reinforcing or thickened areas. The vertical stresses they put on the slab are no more than parking a truck in your garage. There are other threads that explain the physics of this here, so I won't rehash it.

You won't see lift manuals instruct this kind of thing because its problematic and a bad idea. You will see the instructions call for a continuous slab of a uniform thickness for new construction. This is what a 2 post lift needs and what will perform the best.

I've wondered about that ability on a 4poster. but looking at the pic above, that doesn't seem that stable on the front/back (longitudinal) axis. got any closeup pics?

 

[wssix99]

I've wondered about that ability on a 4poster. but looking at the pic above, that doesn't seem that stable on the front/back (longitudinal) axis. got any closeup pics?

I just pulled that one off the web. That picture does look a little rocky with the lift on the suspension, but the arms on the jack also extend out to the frame if one wants to lift on those points.

 

[DGersic]

From my cursory research, a 2 post lift is what I want as I plan on the lift for working on the car (vs storing the car in the air and putting another under it). Seems that most 4 post you drive onto, so that means you can't work on brakes or suspension. mid-rise lifts you can't as easily work on exhaust or transmission. So I think figuring out where the lift will go, and reinforcing that section of the slab is the way to go.

No opinion one way or the other on what you should get, but a 4 post with trolly jack allows brakes & suspension work.

 

[ratflinger]

My opinion is that a 4 post is mostly good for storing a car, doing an oil change or pulling a transmission on an RWD vehicle. For almost any other actual work, I'd rather have a two post, even though I have to get down on the floor to set the lifting pads. I very quickly got tired of having to contort myself around the structure of a 4 post and the bridge jacks in order to reach just about everything I needed to work on, along with having to constantly duck way down while moving around under the vehicle.

4 post is probably OK if you don't do much beyond oil changes and brake jobs.

Full disclosure: I don't have room for either for my personal vehicles, so my opinions are based on my experience working on cars for a living before I retired.

Totally incorrect. I've fully rebuilt a 79 Corvette on a 4-post. Safer than a 2-post (I've had both) and easy enough to work on. I'd never go back to a 2-post.

 

[dave*99]

Totally incorrect. I've fully rebuilt a 79 Corvette on a 4-post. Safer than a 2-post (I've had both) and easy enough to work on. I'd never go back to a 2-post.

Why do you think a 4 post is safer?

 

[ybnormal]

Totally incorrect. I've fully rebuilt a 79 Corvette on a 4-post. Safer than a 2-post (I've had both) and easy enough to work on. I'd never go back to a 2-post.

what about a 4-poster with casters to move it around the shop?

 

[dave*99]

Went down the rabbit hole of 4 post vs 2 post lifts and stalled out again. I think the 2 post is better for doing actual work, the 4 post requires less from the slab and is better for storing the car (which in my case seems to be 90% use case) so I am now leaning towards 4 post.
I'll update more tomorrow, need to get this going asap.

This is accurate, as is your comment about a rabbit hole. I've had a 2 post Rotary SPO-A10 asymmetric lift for 15 years. I used to take my car to the track a lot. After every event the wheels came off and brakes were checked etc. Everybody in the car club that had a lift had a 2 post. One guy did have a 4 post but he had his car serviced at a shop and stored it on the lift.

Can you work on a car on a 4 post.....sure. Everything is a compromise. Do note that storing a car on a 2 post puts a lot of stress on suspension bushings and the like.

As for the concrete requirements....another rabbit hole. Rotary says my lift requires 4.25" of 3000 psi concrete. GJ says..... well you've read that. Thinking about how the way things often go.... there are probably more lifts installed with less than the manufacturers recommended thickness than with more. So it's likely Rotary left some safety margin in that spec. I'd not venture below their requirements, but I'd not rip up a good condition 4.25" slab to install my lift.

 

[Fixr]

Totally incorrect. I've fully rebuilt a 79 Corvette on a 4-post. Safer than a 2-post (I've had both) and easy enough to work on. I'd never go back to a 2-post.

My opinion is based on a lifetime career as a mechanic. In all the shops I worked in, the only 4-post lifts were the alignment rack and maybe an oil change rack.

 

[CraigStu]

My opinion is based on a lifetime career as a mechanic. In all the shops I worked in, the only 4-post lifts were the alignment rack and maybe an oil change rack.

I agree. Both Lexus dealers I worked in for 25 years had an alignment rack w/ 2 bridge jacks. We did a lot of services where the owner was waiting so we sometimes had to use the alignment rack to do a service. EVERY tech hated to be the unlucky guy. Yep, the job can get done but it is no fun. Trying to lift a 19" SUV tire wheel off the car when your stomach is held a foot too far away by the edge of the ramp is a killer. Trying to get it back onto the lugs is even worse. And check the price of a 2 post vs a 4 post and two bridge jacks. If nothing else the amount of steel in a 4 post is insane.

 

[Fixr]

I agree. Both Lexus dealers I worked in for 25 years had an alignment rack w/ 2 bridge jacks. We did a lot of services where the owner was waiting so we sometimes had to use the alignment rack to do a service. EVERY tech hated to be the unlucky guy. Yep, the job can get done but it is no fun. Trying to lift a 19" SUV tire wheel off the car when your stomach is held a foot too far away by the edge of the ramp is a killer. Trying to get it back onto the lugs is even worse. And check the price of a 2 post vs a 4 post and two bridge jacks. If nothing else the amount of steel in a 4 post is insane.

There's also getting in and out of the car having to step down onto that narrow strip of steel and then down to the floor.

 

[danix]

Let's do some creative thinking. You say you found out that although you are in the 'country', you are under dity jurisdiction. Well, cities haver rules for cities. They have to accomodate the whole enchilada. Being away from the city on a large piece of land (compared to a house lot), how hard would it be to apply for a variance?

A bit of advice: if this seems remotely possible, do not do this alone. There are 'advisors' that do this for a living.

Thought about it but it's highly unlikely. In addition to being under the city planning jurisdiction, I am under a local watershed restriction as well. So for example to get my permit for a 20x20 porch I had to have an engineering study, soil analysis, and just avoided having to build the equivalent of a septic field for rain runoff (but I will need to do it for the garage). The oppressive city guidelines are why there is only one garage builder in the area.