Overkill for garage door insulation?

[Cholleman]

Hey folks,

I'm thinking about how to insulate my door and I've got two plans.

Plan 1: Foam board cut to fill the cavities and liquid nail'd in place with a layer of reflectix foil insulation over it

or

Plan 2: Just the reflectix. Since it contains a foam core in addition to the reflective foil skin, I'm not sure if adding the foam boards to the cavities is worth it.

Thoughts?

 

[Costner]

If it is a stamped metal door and the recesses are large enough to hold the foam board without it stick proud of the rear - I'd go with that version.

Not only will it provide you a higher R-value, but it will make the door quieter when it moves up and down as well as reducing sound transfer from the outside.

 

[Cholleman]

Yep, that's the door construction style. so you're saying plan 1.

 

[knudsen]

IMHO can't overinsulate a garage. Not only do they have more places for heat to leak out (& in), but aree often equipped with less efficient HVAC. Go foam.

 

[Chris Adams]

I covered my 16 foot door, old style, with four 4x8 foil backed foam sheets a year ago.

No second layer, I bought the 1 1/4 stuff, 27 bucks a sheet and screwed it to the frame.

The door insulation kits they sell at HD or Lowe's for 60 bucks each (you need two for a 16 foot door) are just white foam with some slits. These are just for the roll up doors, of course.

Can't see the price as you can cut your own slits and pay half as much for the plain white board.

On putting the 1 1/4 foil backed foam panels on my door.
Pluses;
REALLY improved the lighting when the garage is closed. That silver is like a mirror on the wall.
Defiantly helps the temperatures. My heavy wooden faced door was pretty good at holding in heat. You could feel the door radiating heat when you walked past it in the evening. Now you can't.
Takes less to heat and cool, way worth the cost.

Minuses;
It adds weight to the door. On a roll up you shouldn't have too much problem but may need to adjust it. On a swing up it added enough extra load that I increased the springs one level.
It is not legal to do under fire code. The foil plainly says for it to not be used in anyplace that sparks, flame, etc. may come in contact with it.
My vehicles don't 'spit fire' so I'm not worried but someone else may be. That someone may be code enforcement or your insurance company.

On my next door, the rollup on my new shop, I'm going to cut white foam to fit the panels, then cover it with high end aluminum foil before gluing it in. Non-fire hazard, bright reflection.
Cheap too.

 

[nate379]

Why don't you guys just get insulated doors?

 

[porschedude996TT]

Why don't you guys just get insulated doors?

And sell your existing garage door on craigslist...

 

[Chris Adams]

Why don't you guys just get insulated doors?

Um, you mean, buy a new door, throw away the door you have?
Great.
You buying?

By the way, where are these insulated doors?
The biggest garage door company in my area, and it has over fifty trucks, so pretty big, doesn't sell insulated doors. I asked about it for the new door. He thought he could order one, built to sell a thousand miles north of here, but the price was twice what the regular door was.
If a customer asks, they just go to HD and buy the kit, two, and charge 150 bucks to install the kit.

And no one makes an insulated door for the big 16 foot wood one. At least, not in my state.

 

[BillK]

By the way, where are these insulated doors?.

Chris,
Dont know where you are located, but just about every door I have seen around here is insulated. I replaced my old wood 16' one a couple of years ago and it was only $100 or so more for the insulated one.

 

[Chris Adams]

Chris,
Dont know where you are located, but just about every door I have seen around here is insulated. I replaced my old wood 16' one a couple of years ago and it was only $100 or so more for the insulated one.

I'm in the Mojave Desert…

I don't think that many posters ever really consider that this country is HUGE.
The prices on labor, prices on houses, construction, etc. vary about 350% around the country.

That’s excluding small areas like Monterey bay or Manhattan where prices can be 1000% that of low priced places like say Arkansas.

100 bucks won't even buy a kit for one door.
A door is 475, installed. Installation is usually free, by the way.

Insulated is 905, but it is just the same cheap white foam, so you would have to be lazy, non-tool using, or stupid to buy it here. At 100 bucks more, it would be a KILLER deal.


Heat here is the problem. It's cheap to keep a building warm enough to work in during the winter, but when the roof temperature is 125, the outside wall is 122 (taken a little while ago, cool day) shielding from the heat is a big issue.

Again, I already own doors.
For those saying sell old doors,
Used doors don’t sell on Craig’s list. They get hauled, at your expense, to the land fill.



Just remodeled a house. Can’t give used stuff away.
Nobody wants it.
Got two toilets waiting to be picked up by trash now. Both are fine, just not new.
Tossed a good dishwasher yesterday.
Wife wanted stainless…
Had the toilets, dishwasher etc. on the freecycler. Only calls wanted me to deliver them, and install them, free.

 

[nate379]

What cheap white foam?

My door is steel on both sides, about 2" thick. The insulation is inside of it. 18ft wide x 8ft tall door. It's rated at R16.


I was just saying when you buy a new door, it would make more sense to get an insulated one. They aren't much more $$ than a non insulated and they are quite a bit stronger as well. Putting foam on the back is a good temp fix for what you have though.

I don't see why a used door won't sell. They are great for a back shed, etc even if they are beat up a little.

 

[larryv]

I used the foil on my condos garage door which faces the west and before the foil you could not even touch the metal door in the summer. Stuff works Great!

 

[Chris Adams]

What cheap white foam?

My door is steel on both sides, about 2" thick. The insulation is inside of it. 18ft wide x 8ft tall door. It's rated at R16.


I was just saying when you buy a new door, it would make more sense to get an insulated one. They aren't much more $$ than a non insulated and they are quite a bit stronger as well. Putting foam on the back is a good temp fix for what you have though.

I don't see why a used door won't sell. They are great for a back shed, etc even if they are beat up a little.

Nate, ever think that Alaska may have different economics than Southern California?

NOBODY would stock that door, like you have.
Mind you, I would love to have an R16 door.
Never seen one. Even when I lived in Crestline (up in the mountains) nobody had an insulated door.
How cold does it get there?


By the way, non-foam? what's inside it?
Does it melt? Or why we don’t use a lot of plastic outdoors.

How much does a door like that cost?
I posted what the cheap insulation doors cost here, if you order them.

On selling a door, over on Bearvalley road in Victorville there is a LARGE trailer, full of old garage doors.
There is a big sign, FREE on them.

These are the wooden doors. That trailer has about 80 doors. I think it has gone down about three in a week.
Now if they were new roll up doors, I could see people taking them to the recycle shop, but here, a wood door is classed as 'green waste'. You pay by the pound to dispose of it.

I wish we could get things like insulated doors here, and for fair prices.

I do see why the places don’t stock them. Don’t have a lot of snow shovels here either, or ice skates, or snow mittens.

The guys posting from central Florida don't see much use in a swamp cooler in a garage. Here, it's the only way to cool one.

 

[e-tek]

Chris - thanks for explaining to the others why you can't always "buy new, sell old"!! You brought them all into reality so very succinctly.

I just went through a big reno and all kinds of guys said: "Oh, you can sell that and that and that and recoup and not have to pay to haul, etc, etc." Well - as you know - Bull-Shite!!! I couldn't get rid of a working DW as well as a washer and dryer, much less railings, flooring, windows, etc. I finally GAVE away a faily nice, fairly expensive sectional sofa, took the Washer/Dryer to Habitat and everything else went to the dump.

 

[Steve in Mi]

Some insulate to stop the heat from coming in and some to keep the heat from escaping. Sometimes the same guy uses an insulated door to do both depending on the Season (that's me). If you heat you garage or air condition it - insulated doors makes it easier on the pocketbook. For those that say they can't get an insulated locally there is the internet for shopping in such cases and trucking companies to bring your new insulated door to your door.

 

[2_lude]

I recently did the reflectix foil on my garage door. I would say it does make a noticable difference in garage temperatures during the day. The only bad thing is that is also keeps the heat from your cars trapped in. For the reflectix foil to be effective you need to leave an air gap of a couple inches. If you place the foam board with reflectix not sure if it would improve performance.

It would be nice to get a brand new insulated door, but when there is nothing wrong with the current one it is hard to justify buying a new one when you could just spend $100 to update the existing one.

 

[nate379]

I have been all over the U.S. and lived in a few different places I have never even seen a non-insulated door other than on little tin sheds.
I had no idea where you live anyhow, just now you say Cali, but you didn't mention it before.

Your "logic" would be just the same as me saying that I couldn't get an air conditioner here. I'd never need it, but I can still go buy one if I wanted.

I don't see how keeping your garage cool is any different from me keeping mine warm. Insulation doesn't care which side is hot or cold. The ONLY reason for a non insulated door is that it's cheaper... and what you do think builders are going to do if they can??

Nate, ever think that Alaska may have different economics than Southern California?

NOBODY would stock that door, like you have.
Mind you, I would love to have an R16 door.
Never seen one. Even when I lived in Crestline (up in the mountains) nobody had an insulated door.
How cold does it get there?


By the way, non-foam? what's inside it?
Does it melt? Or why we don’t use a lot of plastic outdoors.

How much does a door like that cost?
I posted what the cheap insulation doors cost here, if you order them.

On selling a door, over on Bearvalley road in Victorville there is a LARGE trailer, full of old garage doors.
There is a big sign, FREE on them.

These are the wooden doors. That trailer has about 80 doors. I think it has gone down about three in a week.
Now if they were new roll up doors, I could see people taking them to the recycle shop, but here, a wood door is classed as 'green waste'. You pay by the pound to dispose of it.

I wish we could get things like insulated doors here, and for fair prices.

I do see why the places don’t stock them. Don’t have a lot of snow shovels here either, or ice skates, or snow mittens.

The guys posting from central Florida don't see much use in a swamp cooler in a garage. Here, it's the only way to cool one.

 

[Cholleman]

I recently did the reflectix foil on my garage door. I would say it does make a noticable difference in garage temperatures during the day. The only bad thing is that is also keeps the heat from your cars trapped in. For the reflectix foil to be effective you need to leave an air gap of a couple inches. If you place the foam board with reflectix not sure if it would improve performance.

It would be nice to get a brand new insulated door, but when there is nothing wrong with the current one it is hard to justify buying a new one when you could just spend $100 to update the existing one.

Thanks for the info. we moved into our house in January and though it was new construction, the door is just a stamped steel unit. It's been fine so far, but now that we're getting on in the summer, it gets quite hot in the garage when the door is down. thanks for the comment.

just to be clear, you ONLY did the reflectix?

 

[roboref]

I just got a quote from Overhead door for a 17ft R17 insulated door for $1495 installed and the 2 single doors I am replacing hauled away. BTW I am having the header reinforced and the center post removed. Yea! first step in my remodel of garage. 2 uninsulated 8ft doors at the depot were $595 each and $300 for install.

 

[GN4WHLN]

Though it is not high on my priority list, I am planning to glue foam board insulation on my door then rivet aluminum, bead rolled panels over it.

 

[Need4Speed]

Costco sells Amar garage doors, both insulated and non-insulated for a fair price. From what I recall a 18'x7' insulated door was something like $700 (delivered and no windows). Of course you need to install yourself or contract that out. Lowes and Home Depot also sell them but for a higher price.

In AZ I have seen a lot of uninsulated garage doors over the last 35 years, including in my last 3 houses which are less than 10 years old. Makes no sense to me why the builders don;t just make them standard but I guess when they are pinching pennies, every penny counts. In any event I have always used the foam to insulate my doors and it does help, the last one was with the foil facing worked the best. In fact it was even more effective than the insulated door that I replaced it with to match my new detached garage that I just built.

 

[Chris Adams]

Notice, the guys who say that insulated doors are common live where it gets sub-zero.
And if 1400-1800 (lowest prices shipped and installed) is only a 'few pennies' more than 475 installed, well, I want a barrel of those pennies, please.


Nate, if you never saw an un-insulated garage door, I can't believe you have traveled many places, or perhaps you didn’t have reason to walk into a garage, and look at the door.

I’m a car nut so I have been in lots of garages, looked at the doors, usually because we were opening them to look at the cars in bright light. And I have never seen an insulated door. Well, unless you count doors that were so thick it was moot...

I've lived in 5 states, visited 36 (or more as I don't know if you would count the ones before I was an adult).

Been in private garages in Mexico, Venezuela, Scotland, Germany, South Vietnam, and Canada (near Victoria) and again, never actually stood next to or looked at, an insulated door.

I have been in Alaska, but never in a private garage or I guess I would have seen them there.

As to how easy it is to get insulation here;
They have 2 kits, total, in stock at our local HD, the big store, the two smaller ones don't seem to have them. 2 kits equal one door.

It’s ALWAYS about the money.
Cost savings, using a squirrel cage cooler, on insulating a garage door is about 30 bucks a month with say three day usage per week.

Hard to justify spending a thousand bucks to save 180 bucks maximum a year.
Spending a hundred or two can make sense.

 

[nate379]

I have lived in Maine, Texas, Idaho, and Alaska and done some time in Virginia, North Carolina, New Jersey, Pennsylvania... also about half a year in Korea.

I'm not sure on the cost. I do know my Dad put a door on one of his non heated buildings and I asked why he got an insulated door. He said the insulated one wasn't much more and he might heat the building later on. (talking maybe $100 difference at most)

I don't factor in install and tear away since that is all stuff the average joe can do unless the door is really big or something isn't standard with it.


I hear you there on spending to save though. They were talking on Hometime today about buying a new fridge because the old one costs something like $100 a year more to run. It'd take 10-15 years to recoup that "lost" money if they bought a new fridge!

The foam on the non insulated door is better than nothing at all, I agree there. I put 1" foam on a wood door at a friends and it made a huge difference. The thing was leaky to the point that papers would blow off the bench about 5 feet away! You can only imagine when it was -35* this winter how that was. His boiler was running 24/7 and the house was barely holding 60*. (attached garage)

 

[Chris Adams]

I have lived in Maine, Texas, Idaho, and Alaska and done some time in Virginia, North Carolina, New Jersey, Pennsylvania... also about half a year in Korea.

I'm not sure on the cost. I do know my Dad put a door on one of his non heated buildings and I asked why he got an insulated door. He said the insulated one wasn't much more and he might heat the building later on. (talking maybe $100 difference at most)

I don't factor in install and tear away since that is all stuff the average joe can do unless the door is really big or something isn't standard with it.


I hear you there on spending to save though. They were talking on Hometime today about buying a new fridge because the old one costs something like $100 a year more to run. It'd take 10-15 years to recoup that "lost" money if they bought a new fridge!

The foam on the non insulated door is better than nothing at all, I agree there. I put 1" foam on a wood door at a friends and it made a huge difference. The thing was leaky to the point that papers would blow off the bench about 5 feet away! You can only imagine when it was -35* this winter how that was. His boiler was running 24/7 and the house was barely holding 60*. (attached garage)

-35. OUCH.
We whine like an unhappy puppy if it gets below +26 here at night.

Mind you, we have seen +9 F, but not in many years.
This is the coolest summer anyone living here has ever seen, but it was 104 yesterday so cooling is still the priority.


You sure are right on the energy saving vs. costs.

I really marvel at how few can operate a calculator, much less do simple math.
We get it more on cars with gasoline prices. People who would have to keep their new car for 50 years to break even on gas, claim they are 'saving money' on the energy efficient car. Most of which don't even get very good mileage...Oh Well.


Back to the theme;

Anyone insulating a garage door should look at the air blowing past it on the sides, as much as the heat or cold passing through it.
Here, that is not much of a problem as if you use a squirrel cage, evaporative, swamp cooler (all the same thing) you need air to ‘leak’ out to keep the building cool.
Of course sand blows in any opening so you need something that opens under pressure, but closes when not under pressure.

When heating though, that 'crack around the door' can defeat any amount of inulation on the door.

 

[Garagero]

I've been servicing and installing Garage Doors for a while now in Nor Cal. I can honestly say that all of these posts are accurate and have merit.

The one piece that I would like to add is that regardless of your insulation solution, please take the time to research how safe it is. If you are adding a significant amount of weight (i.e. foam and panels) do not just assume that you can just tighten the springs a few additional revolutions. Especially if the springs are the original from the builder. They tend to use cheap springs. Loading cheap or old springs with more tension will only wear them out faster. This will eventually cause your door parts and operators (for those that have electric openers) to wear out faster because they will have to compensate for the failing springs.

If you are going to add weight to a door (especially a heavy wooden door) I suggest upgrading the torsion springs to offset the additional weight. This is often overlooked by folks who are on a budget, but broken springs can cost them serious $$$ down the road.

Also, be careful not to use highly flammable materials. Making your garage a more comfortable work environment is definitely a +++, just remember to be safe about it.

 

[Slippery]

I dont post here much, but all this talk about garage door insulation got me thinking. I live in South Florida and its been 90 to very low 100s and very humid. Like Chris, I have NEVER seen an insulated garage door down here ...

I went to both Home Depot and Lowes and when I asked about the insulating kits, they looked at me as if I was asking where were the live unicorns.

I found these two online:

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=299870-278-GD01&lpage=none

and

http://doorinsulationkit.com/

I will order one of each online and compare how they look. I have three doors to insulate, hopefully I can compare the temperature difference at the inside of the door.

I will report back with pictures and a temp reading as soon as I receive them.

J

 

[Garagero]

I dont post here much, but all this talk about garage door insulation got me thinking. I live in South Florida and its been 90 to very low 100s and very humid. Like Chris, I have NEVER seen an insulated garage door down here ...

I went to both Home Depot and Lowes and when I asked about the insulating kits, they looked at me as if I was asking where were the live unicorns.

I found these two online:

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=299870-278-GD01&lpage=none

and

http://doorinsulationkit.com/

I will order one of each online and compare how they look. I have three doors to insulate, hopefully I can compare the temperature difference at the inside of the door.

I will report back with pictures and a temp reading as soon as I receive them.

J

Do you have any type of HVAC, Swamp cooler or other temp control in your garage? Do your garages have any wall insulation?

I'm interested to read your findings. Look forward to your post.

 

[scottybaccus]

I couldn't get a door insulation kit for my 16' door for under $200, plus taxes or shipping, depending on local or mail order. I did a little research and found I could improvise for about $160.

I picked up 4 sheets of foam, foil both sides, at Home depot and the same for the white melamine. It's the white plastic paneling used in showers and for kitchen back-splash. I cut the foam to the tightest fit possible, letting one edge drop in, then shoehorning the other edge with a stainless spatula or two. I secured it with little squirts of expanding foam in any gaps, using spacers between the door skin and the foam to keep the foam board near flush against the back of the door structure. Then the melamine was cut a 1/4 under the max dimension of the door panel so it would snap in and retain itself. Once finished, it looks better than the kit my brother had installed. It has made my garage winter friendly. I need to insulate the ceiling and provide some A/C to make it a summer hide out. Well worth the money and beats the heck out of the cost of an insulated door.

 

[kidder]

scottybaccusn - Are you able to upload any pictures (some close up would be even better). I would like to do the same thing to my doors.

 

[thammel]

I live in Maryland. The past 3 houses I've owned have had the cheapo uninsulated steel doors. The only time I've had an insulated door with these houses is when I built additional garages. These have been over half million dollar houses so I'd say the norm is uninsulated doors. I bought nice Garaga brand on my new garage here. I also did insulate the 2 cheapo doors on the existing house garage. I used the foil backed sheet of foam (isocyanurate, I think) that was 1.25" thick. I cut it into strips to fit into the panels. I glued them in place. I also filled all the cavities with Great stuff minimal expanding foam. Things are nice now. The garage stays a lot cooler in Summer and warmer in winter.

Tom

 

[scottybaccus]

scottybaccusn - Are you able to upload any pictures (some close up would be even better). I would like to do the same thing to my doors.

I'll try to upload some next week. On the road now, but home on Friday.

 

[JohnMcD348]

I'm in the Mojave Desert…

I don't think that many posters ever really consider that this country is HUGE.
The prices on labor, prices on houses, construction, etc. vary about 350% around the country.

That’s excluding small areas like Monterey bay or Manhattan where prices can be 1000% that of low priced places like say Arkansas.

100 bucks won't even buy a kit for one door.
A door is 475, installed. Installation is usually free, by the way.

Insulated is 905, but it is just the same cheap white foam, so you would have to be lazy, non-tool using, or stupid to buy it here. At 100 bucks more, it would be a KILLER deal.


Heat here is the problem. It's cheap to keep a building warm enough to work in during the winter, but when the roof temperature is 125, the outside wall is 122 (taken a little while ago, cool day) shielding from the heat is a big issue.

Again, I already own doors.
For those saying sell old doors,
Used doors don’t sell on Craig’s list. They get hauled, at your expense, to the land fill.



Just remodeled a house. Can’t give used stuff away.
Nobody wants it.
Got two toilets waiting to be picked up by trash now. Both are fine, just not new.
Tossed a good dishwasher yesterday.
Wife wanted stainless…
Had the toilets, dishwasher etc. on the freecycler. Only calls wanted me to deliver them, and install them, free.

Have you tried calling one of the Habitat for Humanity type places about your extras after the remodel? They may take them and you could possibly even get a receipt for tax purposes.

 

[2_lude]

Thanks for the info. we moved into our house in January and though it was new construction, the door is just a stamped steel unit. It's been fine so far, but now that we're getting on in the summer, it gets quite hot in the garage when the door is down. thanks for the comment.

just to be clear, you ONLY did the reflectix?

Yes I only used reflectix from Lowes. Used double sided tape to attach each pannel.

 

[Chris Adams]

Have you tried calling one of the Habitat for Humanity type places about your extras after the remodel? They may take them and you could possibly even get a receipt for tax purposes.

We have one Re-Store 60 miles from here. Costs to take them something big would be crazy.
They don't take things like dishwashers if they have been used or toilets, etc.

They do take brand new stuff, and used furniture type things.


I have bought things from them. New high end faucets for 20 cents on the dollar, but some things were missing from the boxes. Still a killer deal, even after sourcing the missing parts.

Things like garage doors don't interest them at all.
They would take a working garage door opener or something like that.

They mostly sell to friends and families of the employees, and to certain contractors. So the 'good stuff' is usually gone about one minute after it arrives.

Still, a GREAT place to look for bargains.
Got a bunch of grout and granite sealers from them for about ten cents on the dollar.

 

[Cholleman]

I think what I'll end up doing is going with 1 sheet of foam on the inside of the bracing to help with noise, followed by the reflectix on the outside of the bracing for further insulation and aesthetics. since the bracing on my door is about 1.5" deep, i'll have enough room for the reflectix to do it's job. thanks guys.

 

[1slowls1]

I went with this one last year. It was easy to install and helped a lot. I will try to get pics, if you want.


http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=299870-278-GD01&lpage=noneI

 

[Cholleman]

thanks. for the foam board with foil on one side, foil side goes out (facing garage door) right?

 

[scottybaccus]

thanks. for the foam board with foil on one side, foil side goes out (facing garage door) right?

that is correct

 

[Chris Adams]

Priced garage doors with insulation (again) today as I am having one put in next week.

346 without
799 with.

Best I could find.

Or they put the kit from HD in, for 200 bucks.


Think I will do it myself, again.

 

[Cholleman]

that is correct

thanks. i've got one more question i was thinking about. with the foil faced foam board adhered to the inside of the door, and the reflectix adhered to the bracing on the door, could there be a problem trapping heat between the two? if warm air were to somehow find it's way past the foam board, would the reflectix radiate it back towards the foil faced foam, and the foil on the foam radiate it back towards the reflectix? the only foam boards they had at Lowes that would fit in the cavities of the door were foil faced.