Overseas Jack Rebuild Help Tutorial.

[Hiball]

The ucup on my jack has a flat bottom and a flat plastic backup. I found a supplier and ordered the ucup ($17.00). The two white plastic or nylon backups that were under, or on top of, the orings on the plunger were solid. I removed them during the teardown, but will have to reuse them. Can you help me in letting me know if they go on top or on the bottom of he orings. I plan on using the original orings and will keep my fingers crossed that nothing leaks. Thanks again for the quick responses. This forum and been a big help in this attempt to salvage a 20+ year old jack.

I suspect what your calling a backup for the ucup is just a spacer or some call it a wiper, a backup would encompass the outer portion of the ucup as dictated by the earlier picture of Edgar's. A picture would help.. As far as the oring backups they generally are placed "above" the pressure to prevent extrusion, so they would be placed on top. With that said... Some jacks have them offset (oil pickup) and depending on groove size and amount of grooves it varies from jack to jack.

 

[EDGAR]

It would be a good idea to replace the old o rings with new ones. They are cheap and should be readily available in any hydraulic shop. Probably the metric o ring will be substituted for inch sizes of about the same size as there are some sizes that are interchangeable between metric and inches.

 

[Hiball]

The reason I presented the loaded cup is that THE ORING STORE does not seems to sell the standard urethane ucup in the 22 x 40 x 12 size. You see, it is always the problem of availability. The items exist but are not always conveniently available. So either he goes with the loaded one or he keeps searching for it online. He should check his local hydraulic shop first though, as this is a size that is probably in stock.

MFP sells some sizes only in the loaded u cup and you have to buy what they have or go somewhere else for a standard u cup.

HIball, what are you refering to with this statement:

"The 40x22x12 should be a standard Ucup size, don't believe I've ever seen that size in a 2 piece backup application used in a floor jack"

The back up illustration was not for the u cup, but for a pump piston, for example, with two backups. It was only meant to show how the split backups look. His jack more likely will have just one backup for the pump piston o-ring. He did mention that the he wanted to replace the pump piston backup.

I took this comment along with the picture of a ucup/backup


A solid backup is used under the u-cup because is easy to install.

Does your u-cup has a step on the bottom part (the one without the flared lips)? If so, the backup will have a short vertical lip to receive the step. This lip will have to be removed to make a flat backup as the aftermarket u-cups do not have the step in the bottom side.


I was only stating that In 40x22x12 I've never seen that type of application in a floor jack.

Btw OP do yourself a favor and swap the tank seal and pump Orings while your jacking around.

 

[barney1977]

Man, you guys are on the ball. Thanks for the advise. I will try to find a hydraulic shop somewhere close to get the orings. The spacer/backup is located between the u-cup and a copper colored ring/spacer. All of these are held in place by a snap-ring. I would try to add a picture, but it would take awhile for me to figure out how to add one.

 

[EDGAR]

I do believe that the washer under the u cup of the OP is a backup as Shinn Fu has always used backups under the u cups in one shape or another. The reason is that high pressure can be generated when lifting heavy loads and they just want to prevent extrusion. An u cup without a backup could suffer what is called "nibbling" which is when small pieces of the u cup are pinched off from the bottom edge of the u cup.

Whenever possible, a back up should be used under the u cup, if available, or the person is able to make one. If none is available, then use none.

The harder the material of the u cup, the less the need for a backup, but still, for higher pressures a backup should be used.

Below see the chart for when a backup should be used depending on how high the pressure is. The link offers more information for the first picture.

http://www.sealhouse.co.nz/content.asp?syscmd=dl&ID=AA4DDB5C93644213B29EC732885C60D6

 

[Hiball]

Re: Overseas Jack Rebuild Help Tutorial

I do believe that the washer under the u cup of the OP is a backup as Shinn Fu has always used backups under the u cups in one shape or another. The reason is that high pressure can be generated when lifting heavy loads and they just want to prevent extrusion. An u cup without a backup could suffer what is called "nibbling" which is when small pieces of the u cup are pinched off from the bottom edge of the u cup.

Whenever possible, a back up should be used under the u cup, if available, or the person is able to make one. If none is available, then use none.

The harder the material of the u cup, the less the need for a backup, but still, for higher pressures a backup should be used.

Below see the chart for when a backup should be used depending on how high the pressure is. The link offers more information for the first picture.

http://www.sealhouse.co.nz/content.asp?syscmd=dl&ID=AA4DDB5C93644213B29EC732885C60D6

I'll re-read the article and graph when I get home, but if it's the same one we discussed via PM previously the 2 main factors that contributed to whether a backup was required where.. Seal material and tolerance levels between the heel/cylinder. I've tore down more jacks without a spacer/heel/backup with the ucup simply resting against guide than I care to remember and be never seen any signs of "nibbling". I don't think that is a issue on close tolerance hydraulics with poly seals. With all that said... To anyone wishing to just simply discard there washer for SnG''s I don't condone that behavior as 1. It's pointless and 2. It changes your stack height for seal securement.

 

[Hiball]

Ok.. I just spent about 30 minutes reading various resources for Seal Characteristics and I just don't see anything that indicates that Ucup requires a Backup for the PSI that your typical Hydraulic Jack will incur under "normal" Gap Clearances. I did fire a email of to MPF and One to Hercules, 2 Seal companies that Ive done a fair amount of business with and included a link to this thread. Im all about learning and if someone in the specific field can shed some light, More power to everyone in the community. I am going to attach a screen shot and link to Hitechseals.com info in regards to Ucups for everyones reading pleasure, Drink some Caffeine Prior. Ive Read Multiple articles about backups, Some Give under pressure to fill Extrusion Gaps, Some have a Bigger OD than the Seal Heel and fill by being the harder of the 2 materials, but require specific gaps to work. I really think we are Over Analyzing the Issue, But for the Sake of Discussion and Knowledge im Game.

Really all I wanted to say in the Beginning was to be careful using the Loaded Ucups, When you have a 40MM bore and slip 40MM Ucup inside the bore the Flared portion is designed to be snug on a Normal Ucup, Throw in a Energizer and the Lip pressure is enough to place drag on the cylinder wall when off Load.

 

[EDGAR]

Below see the way GJ member PAULSOMLO calculated the PSI for an SJ2 piston cup. The way he calculates it, involving lever arms, gave him a 9600 PSI at the piston cup.


"Regarding the rating of the main piston cup; I did some calculations and I'm skeptical at the numbers I'm coming up with. The lever arm from the lift arm pivot to where the saddle attaches is 16" (jack lowered). The lever arm from the ram attachment to the lift arm pivot is about 3". If the jack is rated at 1.5 tons, then there's a torque of 3000lb times 16" or 48,000 inch pounds acting on the lift arm pivot point. The ram has to counter this through a 3" lever arm and provide 16000 lb of force. With a 1.5" diameter cylinder, that means roughly 9600 psi at the piston cup. Yet, I see piston cups with ratings of 5000 psi as pretty standard - what am I missing? Does the jack rating imply it will actually lift 1.5 tons, or does it mean that I can use the jack on a 1.5 ton vehicle and it will lift either the front or back off the ground, but not both?

Paul "

(Note: the seal of the SJ2 is a piston cup, but still this would also apply to an u cup seal.)

Based on this calculation, the pressures would be way over what the typical urethane u-cup is rated, which is anything from 4000 PSI to 6000 PSI, depending on design and material hardness. And this "high" pressure, 9600 PSI, would require a backup, taking into account, of course, the clearance between the cylinder wall and the part were the ucup is mounted on.

For a bottle jack, where there are no levers involved in lifting a load, the calculation would be easier as you can use any online calculator for hydraulic cylinder pressures. See below a graph indicating the force in pound generated by different seal sizes and the PSI required to do it. Keep in mind that this is a straight cylinder acting directly on the load, using no levers.

So what PSI are the floor jacks operating with? Medium PSI or high PSI?

What is the right way to calculate the PSI for a floor jack were lever arms are involved?

Keep in mind that the rating of a floor jack pump by itself is higher than the jack rating. The longer the lift arm, the lower the jack rating. So, for example, the pump by itself could be rated as a 5, a 6, or even an 8 ton pump, based on the size of the seal, but when the length of the lifting arm is included in the calculation, the rating of the jack is lower and not the 5 nor 6 nor 8 tons of the pump.


Link to a calculator and to where the graph was found.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/hydraulic-force-calculator-d_1369.html

 

[Hiball]

So what PSI are the floor jacks operating with? Medium PSI or high PSI?

What is the right way to calculate the PSI for a floor jack were lever arms are involved?

Keep in mind that the rating of a floor jack pump by itself is higher than the jack rating. The longer the lift arm, the lower the jack rating. So, for example, the pump by itself could be rated as a 5, a 6, or even an 8 ton pump, based on the size of the seal, but when the length of the lifting arm is included in the calculation, the rating of the jack is lower and not the 5 nor 6 nor 8 tons of the pump.


Link to a calculator and to where the graph was found.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/hydraulic-force-calculator-d_1369.html

Rest Assured Jack Companies are Not running 9600PSI cylinder Pressure with a seal capable of 5000psi, Not Happening...I think his figures are skewed by not factoring its a ladder/hing lift versus your typical leverage lift arm. I Personally know of NO way (No doubt there is a way) to calculate the Leverage and how it affects the PSI, Considering the Lift is created by a Ladder/Hinge off of the Main Ram. Its Simply Way above my Pay grade... Hydraulic "Floor" Jack Overloads are set the Same way a Bottle Jack is, Put it in a H frame and test Vertically from the Lift Pad UP and set it lift the Manufacturers tonnage based off the Model Utilizing OEM Seal Material and have faith that they have done all the engineering/Lawyering to keep there design within a seals limits. I do get what you are saying, There is No doubt in my Mind that the PSI is increased account of the Lift Arm/Hinge, Which is why your typical 2 ton Floor jack has a bigger cylinder bore than say your 2 ton bottle jack im guessing to accommodate for the extra Psi, there is definitely room to grow because it only takes a 1.5 bore roughly 2200+/- PSI to lift 2 tons directly. Another thing to factor in is that as the lift arm raises it actually get closer to the center of the unit which reduces some of the PSI created by leverage.

 

[EDGAR]

Way happening, but not necessarily by the jack manufacturers, so I cannot rest assured...

Just to clarify a little detail that is not clear. Let us take as an example the 5000 psi u cup mentioned before. That rating is for an u cup without a back up under it. That means that the u cup can be used without a backup in cylinders that will see 5000 psi or less during use. All the ratings for u-cups shown in manufacturers / distributors catalogs are for u-cup seals without the use of backups.

When a backup is added, the PSI rating can, more or less, double. So, with a backup, the same 5000 PSI u cup can become a 10,000 -12,000 PSI seal. Now, the harder the material of the backup and the thicker, the more PSI the same 5000 PSI seal can withstand. And, with the right backup, the 5000 PSI seal can go even beyond the 10,000 PSI. For severe pressures, a combination of very hard synthetic backups and metal backups can elevate that PSI way more.

In the chart in picture 7, see that plain nylon backups can help a standard urethane u cup seal (4000-6000 PSI rating) to seal pressures near the 1000 bar which is about 14,500 PSI, depending on the gap tolerances maintained in the machining of the cylinder. The other pictures show details of various types of backups and info about backups. Although some proprietary material compounds are mentioned, performance should be similar for similar materials used by other manufacturers.

Pay particular attention to picture 5 where it says: "With proper backup to reduce the gap, relatively fragile elastomers can successfully seal extremely high pressures".

So a 5000 PSI u-cup could indeed seal 9600 PSI, with proper backup... Everyone in the hydraulic industry knows this, so corroborating it is as easy as contacting one of the big hydraulic seal manufacturers or distributors and asking them, as a "second opinion".

So, if a floor jack pump operates under the 4000-6000 PSI rating of urethane u-cup seals, a backup washer is not necessary, but if the pressures were higher, a backup is recommended by the seal manufacturers. The rating of the u cup varies depending on the material hardness and seal design.

Since at this time we don't know what pressures are generated inside a floor jack cylinder, as we have not yet determined how to measure a pump PSI when lever arms are involved, it would be wise to use backups if the pump came with them.

As for high pressures, in a 20 ton bottle jack, were the seal size is 60mm or about 2- 3/8 inches, the pressure to attain the 40,000 lbs jack load rating exceeds 8000 PSI (extrapolated), based on the graph presented in post 649, if we select the closest seal size, which is 2.5 inches, as shown in the graph. This seal will require a backup washer. This would probably only be done when adjusting the overload bypass as I don't think anyone will ever attempt to lift so much weight with a "little" bottle jack. A 50 to 100 ton bottle jack would be more appropriate.

That "modular" backup shown in picture 1 looks pretty similar to the heel plate in the Lincoln, Hein Werner, Walker 93632 and 93642 floor jacks... And modular backups are well known in the hydraulic industry...but mostly unknown in the floor jack repair business as these would be about the only floor jacks brand using them, as far as I know.

http://hydraulicspneumatics.com/node/3548?page=2

 

[Hiball]

Way happening, but not necessarily by the jack manufacturers, so I cannot rest assured...

Just to clarify a little detail that is not clear. Let us take as an example the 5000 psi u cup mentioned before. That rating is for an u cup without a back up under it. That means that the u cup can be used without a backup in cylinders that will see 5000 psi or less during use. All the ratings for u-cups shown in manufacturers / distributors catalogs are for u-cup seals without the use of backups.

When a backup is added, the PSI rating can, more or less, double. So, with a backup, the same 5000 PSI u cup can become a 10,000 -12,000 PSI seal. Now, the harder the material of the backup and the thicker, the more PSI the same 5000 PSI seal can withstand. And, with the right backup, the 5000 PSI seal can go even beyond the 10,000 PSI. For severe pressures, a combination of very hard synthetic backups and metal backups can elevate that PSI way more.

In the chart in picture 7, see that plain nylon backups can help a standard urethane u cup seal (4000-6000 PSI rating) to seal pressures near the 1000 bar which is about 14,500 PSI, depending on the gap tolerances maintained in the machining of the cylinder. The other pictures show details of various types of backups and info about backups. Although some proprietary material compounds are mentioned, performance should be similar for similar materials used by other manufacturers.

Pay particular attention to picture 5 where it says: "With proper backup to reduce the gap, relatively fragile elastomers can successfully seal extremely high pressures".

So a 5000 PSI u-cup could indeed seal 9600 PSI, with proper backup... Everyone in the hydraulic industry knows this, so corroborating it is as easy as contacting one of the big hydraulic seal manufacturers or distributors and asking them, as a "second opinion".

So, if a floor jack pump operates under the 4000-6000 PSI rating of urethane u-cup seals, a backup washer is not necessary, but if the pressures were higher, a backup is recommended by the seal manufacturers. The rating of the u cup varies depending on the material hardness and seal design.

Since at this time we don't know what pressures are generated inside a floor jack cylinder, as we have not yet determined how to measure a pump PSI when lever arms are involved, it would be wise to use backups if the pump came with them.

As for high pressures, in a 20 ton bottle jack, were the seal size is 60mm or about 2- 3/8 inches, the pressure to attain the 40,000 lbs jack load rating exceeds 8000 PSI (extrapolated), based on the graph presented in post 649, if we select the closest seal size, which is 2.5 inches, as shown in the graph. This seal will require a backup washer. This would probably only be done when adjusting the overload bypass as I don't think anyone will ever attempt to lift so much weight with a "little" bottle jack. A 50 to 100 ton bottle jack would be more appropriate.

That "modular" backup shown in picture 1 looks pretty similar to the heel plate in the Lincoln, Hein Werner, Walker 93632 and 93642 floor jacks... And modular backups are well known in the hydraulic industry...but mostly unknown in the floor jack repair business as these would be about the only floor jacks brand using them, as far as I know.

http://hydraulicspneumatics.com/node/3548?page=2

That's a Great Story and All, but if you would have read with the purpose of understanding and Not replying, you would have seen the in the Very first Sentence I clearly stated that:

Rest Assured Jack Companies are Not running 9600PSI cylinder Pressure with a seal capable of 5000psi, Not Happening...

Don't try and Pick my Words apart and separate the Ucup from the UCUP/Backup Combination Knowing Damn Well I was saying that Jack Companies aren't going to allow PSI to exceed the Sealing Capabilities of there Jack for Liability Reasons. That was a Extremely Sad Attempt...

So a 5000 PSI u-cup could indeed seal 9600 PSI, with proper backup... Everyone in the hydraulic industry knows this, so corroborating it is as easy as contacting one of the big hydraulic seal manufacturers or distributors and asking them, as a "second opinion".

And NO ONE HERE is denying that.. My Earlier comment was in regards to those pressures and Quoted Above for Accuracy...


In Regards to your statement: Again.. Quoted for Accuracy..

Below see the way GJ member PAULSOMLO calculated the PSI for an SJ2 piston cup. The way he calculates it, involving lever arms, gave him a 9600 PSI at the piston cup.

And Now you have taken my response to those pressures involving a SJ2 Piston Seal.. NOT A UCUP as so you so Boldly (<-- Ha made a funny) changed later in the thread and insinuated that I said UCUPs cant achieve those numbers with appropriate backups. I Never said that Edgar, No matter how many times you type it. Ive Seen the SJ1or 2 Jacks with and Without The Leather Washer behind the Piston Seal, Some of the Jack copies call this Leather Washer a "Wiper" and I believe ive seen it called a backup on others. I have a Hard time grasping how a Leather washer could have any longevity as a Backup, It would definitely be pliable enough... but even a heavily impregnated washer would still suffer in the longevity department im afraid. On a side Note.. There are literally dozens of older Pre-Poly Walkers/HW OS/WS etc... that didn't use anything in between the Leather piston seal and Brass Guide.

Again.. So we are Clear. NO Where did I say that 10K isn't possible, as there are lots of Hydraulic applications "in and out of the Jack World" where 10K PSI sealing is required including a lot of your bigger Bottle Jacks, Bigger Floor Jacks and Porta Power equipment of the top of my head. I Don't think the Heel plates are being utilized as Backups in the 9XXXX Series Jacks, Mainly because they are HARD AS A ROCK and from what ive read about Modular backups is that they work by filling Extrusion gaps and in particular the Polymyte material as linked in your picture in "Backup" form comes in at 65 Durometer on the Hardness scale, That's softer than your typical BunaN Oring. I think Heel plates where simply a Cheap alternative to the Old Brass Guides that where used in the Older Walker Jacks and developed to simply reduce the Initial cost and speed up repair when they changed from Leather Piston to Ucup. Case and Point.. I just had a Older Lincoln 50 ton bottle jack tore down the other day and it utilized a Heel Plate, THEN a Backup Washer, THEN the UCUP. Scrolling thru some diagrams here at Home it appears the same setup is used in the Lincoln 10 ton Floor jacks, so I don't believe the Heel plate alone is used as a backup.

Rule #1.. For the Community on Rebuilding your Hydraulics, IF the OEM Uses a specific Seal setup, Simply Replace with a Equal or better sealing solution, Let the Engineers/Lawyers handle the Rest.

/Case Closed

 

[Hiball]

I do believe that the washer under the u cup of the OP is a backup as Shinn Fu has always used backups under the u cups in one shape or another.

After looking at some of the Omega lineup in regards to Backups it does appear that at the least the Current lineup is using a Backup Washer behind the Ucup. I actually went back thru the entire Overseas Tutorial Looking at Members pictures and there is absolutely No Rhyme or Reason to when a Manufacturer uses a backup and when they don't, as there are plenty of example of both. My Only thought on the subject is that these newer jacks don't carry the tolerance's that the older ones did, thus they need to plug the gaps under Load. Maybe its a Cylinder size/Max Capacity issue? Im almost tempted to head out to the shop and tear one down just so I can get a grasp on the material and get some measurements between the Guide/Cylinder to see what type of fitment we have.

 

[EDGAR]

I did mention, on the first line of my post, that the 9600PSI did not necessarily applied to jack manufacturers. But does apply to other type of high pressure cylinders. It is there, I don't understand how you missed it.

About the cup of the SJ2, I did mention that the seal of this jack was different from an u-cup in my earlier post. And the point there was the PSI numbers PAULSOMLO came with, regardless of the type of seal used. Whether the numbers are right or wrong, you have to discuss that with him.

Originally Posted by Hiball

"Rest Assured Jack Companies are Not running 9600PSI cylinder Pressure with a seal capable of 5000psi, Not Happening..."

The way you wrote that, it gives the impression that the 5000 psi rated seal can't handle the 9600 psi because it is a weak seal, especially since you said it is a seal capable of 5000 psi. People who don' know any better will think, because you said it, that the seal is not capable of more pressure whether it uses a backup or not. You have to be careful the way you explain things, so as not to confuse the other GJ members just because you want to give a sassy fast reply.

And the problem is, that those persons can forward out-of-place information. And just because you said it was so. And then, we are going to have a lot of misinformation going around and no way to stop it.

So, my intention was to clarify that a 5000 psi cup can handle 9600 psi in other type of cylinders. I don't know what the problem is with that.

You should have explained the issue as one of not running 9600 psi in floor jack pumps regardless of the type of seal or their rating. But that is not the way you did it. Anyone reading your statement is going to get the wrong impression from it.

Since some people consider you the jack "expert" here, you should explain things much better than you normally do, so that anyone reading your posts have no doubt of what you said. Writing fast answers, and therefore, leaving a lot of information out, can confuse people instead of helping them.

As for the heel plate, I believe it serves two purposes. As guide and as a backup. If you still want to cover the sky with your hand, please feel free to do so.

And as for understanding a post, I don't think you understood my post. It is a pity that you have such a soft skin that can't handle anything that you, in your imagination, think is a critic to you.

The purpose of any information I post here is to benefit the GJ readers, not to criticize you. But rest assured that if you give some wrong information in GJ, I will try to correct it. But I guess that will not happen often since you are "Mr. perfection"...the one who is never wrong.

 

[Hiball]

Since some people consider you the jack "expert" here, you should explain things much better than you normally do, so that anyone reading your posts have no doubt of what you said. Writing fast answers, and therefore, leaving a lot of information out, can confuse people instead of helping them..

Does it Hurt your feelings that people claim im a Jack Expert here... You've brought that up many times... Also I can promise you that simply saying "That you should reuse the Older spacers/Backups etc" is a Hell of a lot easier to understand than copy/pasting a bunch of Seal Characteristics like you did a few posts up and Claim that is "Helping People".. Wow.. Ive learned a few things in my Life, People who tend to overtype/run off to Head and try and use 500 words to explain something that could be said in 10, are trying to sell something they don't have. Good Luck with that...

As for the heel plate, I believe it serves two purposes. As guide and as a backup. If you still want to cover the sky with your hand, please feel free to do so..

Prove me Wrong.. Tell me why other Lincoln big bore hydraulics use a Heel Plate and a Backup, Yet the 632/42 etc Use only a Heel Plate and Not a Backup? If the Heel plate is sufficient to prevent extrusion, Why not use it everywhere?Please Help me Understand, or should we just simply take your word for it when it doesn't translate from Model to model. Tell me something about Edgar I cant find in a Parker Handbook.

The purpose of any information I post here is to benefit the GJ readers, not to criticize you. But rest assured that if you give some wrong information in GJ, I will try to correct it. But I guess that will not happen often since you are "Mr. perfection"...the one who is never wrong.

I make mistakes all the time, Nobody is perfect in this world, Not in Person and definitely not on the internet. If I make a mistake I own up to it, I believe I did that earlier in this thread in regards to the backup washers on the Shin fu models. I do find it Ironic that you are calling me Perfect.. I do find it mildly amusing that after Numerous Years and quite a few Hydraulic Shop Owners as Members you seem to be the only one who picks my posts apart down to the T. Wouldn't you think if im full of so much bad information that I would be getting hounded by More members? Maybe your the only Hydraulic Intelligent guy Here? Crazy.. How do you suppose ive made it through all these Years? Blind Luck?

 

[sselander]

Both just need to take a step back and take a breath.
Both Edgar and Hiball provide a valuable service and it would a shame to lose one of them due to a disagreement. Personally, I like the ying and yang of the conversations. I get more out of it. Just chill and think about things before posting.

 

[Hiball]

Both just need to take a step back and take a breath.
Both Edgar and Hiball provide a valuable service and it would a shame to lose one of them due to a disagreement. Personally, I like the ying and yang of the conversations. I get more out of it. Just chill and think about things before posting.

I have No Problem with Discussing things, Rebuilding Hydraulic Jacks isn't Rocket Science, This thread is a prime example of how your Average Home Owner can service his own jack in regards to simple Seal Replacements. That was my Goal when I started this thread and IMO its been a Success based off the Positive Reinforcement I have received Personally. If Edgar wants to dance around post #651 as a Thin Skinned effort on my part so be it, But post #654 clearly stated his intentions. What exactly where is Intentions? Well Obviously to impose his knowledge on Backups in Operations by his own admission "didn't Necessarily Apply to Jack Manufacturers" Right... And he did this in a Overseas Jack Tutorial.. Right... And if that was enough to try and Discredit my Opinion he decided to Explain how I was confusing everyone. And this is where it gets tricky.. as i have never told anyone to remove a OEM Backup on Floor Jack. NEVER... And then to finish the Post he claims im Perfect and give Zero justification to How Heel plates are used as Backups and Guides, but assures me that He is Right and "Im covering the Sky with my Hand" What have i learned... Edgar is a terrible liar, He tried to play off #651 not as a attack on my Credibility , Unfortunately for him Post #654 came along with lots of Attacking/Finger pointing and True Intentions.

Amazingly.. I cant recall one single issue the Membership has had in regards to backups/Washers behind Ucups, You would think after reading the last few posts it would have been a epidemic, Especially considering the Amount of Ucups swapped out by Members. Its Interesting to say the Least.. But what do i know? Oh yeah.. Everything im Perfect.

 

[EDGAR]

Since I am liar, I am going to lie a little more.

I am so sorry, but I will have to do something that you hate very much. I will have to correct you, yet again, on something were you have made a mistake. Please apply an ice bag to your ego. Better make that a 50 gallon polyethylene bag of ice. (Because it is so big!, darnet, I have to explain everything…)

It is about the modular backup hardness. It just happens that the durometer of the modular backup is 65 shore D. Now, 65 shore D is not the same as 65 shore A. 65 shore D is a hard material equivalent to a 110 shore A. Below see a chart comparing the two durometers, plus Rockwell R.

So, the modular backup, in 65 shore D is hard material and not a soft material as you erroneously stated. How do you like “them” apples?

Hytrel, which is another hard material is only a 55 shore D, which is a 100 shore A. Nylon is a higher shore D number which makes it an even harder material and it is used to make backups. Many backups are made of nylon. So your statement that the Lincoln heel plate cannot be a backup because it is a hard material, is totally bogus . If the heel plate is made of nylon, and it looks like it is, then it can be a backup and work as well as any other nylon backup, thin or thick. It should work the same way the modular backup works. No more, no less. Whether it is needed or not, because of the PSI the floor jack pump sees, is another question.

You know what happens when you, instead of looking up information, spend your time writing sassy quick replies, full of mocking and nasty remarks? You end up looking bad. And you know you have always done this. So, it is your own fault if you look bad, not mine, so I do not understand why you get mad at me when I try to shed more light on a subject. If you don’t provide the whole information, or the right information, someone else has to do it, I guess.

That attitude of yours is very professional and very mature, yes sir. Instead of you standing corrected, you stand offended. Very much offended. And because you feel offended, you feel the urge to retaliate the only way you know: by making a mockery of everything that is good and right. Well, that is sad, very sad. Maybe you should do something to try to calm down your short temper and your agitated attitude, maybe see someone or smoke something or take some of those relaxing pills. With a doctor’s prescription, of course. Don’t get nasty, just chill out, man.

Gee, you probably spend everyday picking up fights with your friends, co workers and neighbors if they dare to say something to you that you can imagine as a criticism or a correction. They probably think you are some kind of bully!

You remind me of that movie, “THE CAINE MUTINY” with Humphrey Bogart, where Bogart, as the captain, thought everyone was against him and anything anyone said was taken as an offense or was said just to make him look bad. Poor thing…

I don’t know how to tell you this, but if you keep making mistakes, I will have no other choice but to degrade you from Mr. “Perfection” to Mr. “Close, but no cigar“! And you don’t know how much this will sadden me… well, maybe not.

And I do not dare explain, lest you mock me, how the heel plate works, and since you know so much, you already know how it works, so you should explain it to everyone and take the credit.

Design changes happen everyday in every industry. If some jacks have heel plates and others not, that was a decision taken by the engineers designing them, for whatever reason they saw fit. That is why today you are not working with steam powered trains, because some engineers decided to change a previous train design. If everyone thought that things could not be changed, you would still be shoveling coal into a steam engine today.

And you yourself damage your credibility when you explain things incorrectly and then make fun of anyone trying to correct your mistakes. You are just trying to cover your tracks with nasty and mocking remarks. That is very beautiful.

I never said that you told someone to remove the backups, never. Your are hallucinating. Better not smoke anything, or take any pills, you are just going to get crazier.

If no one else here has "picked up your posts apart" as you said, is because the other GJ members, unfortunately, don't know enough about repairing jacks, so they are unable to correct you.

If I show pictures with information is because I am sure you won't believe what I explain here, so I have no other choice but to show evidence of what I said. Everything I have presented here exist in the hydraulic industry literature, I am not making anything up. But I am pretty sure you have never seen before any of the charts or diagrams I have shown here, because the least thing you do if look up information. To you, what you do not know, does not exist.

Perhaps you should get the Parker guide, unless you think that they don't know anything at all and every bit of information they provide is false or wrong. I don't know, but if I have to choose a source of information, I would choose Parker over you every time. And if by any chance, you have their guide, you should read it, and them I won't be the only one who knows the information contained there. And you should call them, and tell them you are willing to teach them many things because they know nothing.

Do you even went to school? Because in schools they use things called books, perhaps you have seen one? And in the books, there is usually good, reliable information, otherwise no one would print them. So why does it bother you so much that I use the Parker book, or any other book, to find information. Where do you find your information, does it falls from the sky into your lap, do you find it under a rock or does it come to you in dreams? Are you a book burner, who think books are bad and should be destroyed because nothing good comes from them? If you lived in Salem in older times, you would probably had been the organizer of the witch burnings, since they would do things that you would not be able to understand, so therefore, they were bad. Bad witches!

It does not bother me that you are an "expert", what bothers me is that you don't know some basic things, despite the many years you say you have fixing jacks and the thousands upon thousands of jacks you have repaired as you have stated yourself.

Do not get me wrong, I do commend you for your effort and dedication in making this repair tutorial, but anything worth doing should be done right, otherwise don't bother doing it. And doing it right implies being up to date with the info required to do these repairs and not simply rely in the things you learned many years ago when the internet was not available to search for that information. You should strive to know more every day by using any available information resource, instead of chastising and making fun of others for doing so. But then, that is they way you are and it will never change. Because this is not the first time we have discussed this and everything is still the same. Too bad.


Waiting with anticipation your next sassy quick reply, full of mockery and nonsense, I leave you now.

 

[Hiball]

Since I am liar, I am going to lie a little more.

I am so sorry, but I will have to do something that you hate very much. I will have to correct you, yet again, on something were you have made a mistake. Please apply an ice bag to your ego. Better make that a 50 gallon polyethylene bag of ice. (Because it is so big!, darnet, I have to explain everything…)

It is about the modular backup hardness. It just happens that the durometer of the modular backup is 65 shore D. Now, 65 shore D is not the same as 65 shore A. 65 shore D is a hard material equivalent to a 110 shore A. Below see a chart comparing the two durometers, plus Rockwell R.

So, the modular backup, in 65 shore D is hard material and not a soft material as you erroneously stated. How do you like “them” apples?

Hytrel, which is another hard material is only a 55 shore D, which is a 100 shore A. Nylon is a higher shore D number which makes it an even harder material and it is used to make backups. Many backups are made of nylon. So your statement that the Lincoln heel plate cannot be a backup because it is a hard material, is totally bogus . If the heel plate is made of nylon, and it looks like it is, then it can be a backup and work as well as any other nylon backup, thin or thick. It should work the same way the modular backup works. No more, no less. Whether it is needed or not, because of the PSI the floor jack pump sees, is another question.

You know what happens when you, instead of looking up information, spend your time writing sassy quick replies, full of mocking and nasty remarks? You end up looking bad. And you know you have always done this. So, it is your own fault if you look bad, not mine, so I do not understand why you get mad at me when I try to shed more light on a subject. If you don’t provide the whole information, or the right information, someone else has to do it, I guess.

That attitude of yours is very professional and very mature, yes sir. Instead of you standing corrected, you stand offended. Very much offended. And because you feel offended, you feel the urge to retaliate the only way you know: by making a mockery of everything that is good and right. Well, that is sad, very sad. Maybe you should do something to try to calm down your short temper and your agitated attitude, maybe see someone or smoke something or take some of those relaxing pills. With a doctor’s prescription, of course. Don’t get nasty, just chill out, man.

Gee, you probably spend everyday picking up fights with your friends, co workers and neighbors if they dare to say something to you that you can imagine as a criticism or a correction. They probably think you are some kind of bully!

You remind me of that movie, “THE CAINE MUTINY” with Humphrey Bogart, where Bogart, as the captain, thought everyone was against him and anything anyone said was taken as an offense or was said just to make him look bad. Poor thing…

I don’t know how to tell you this, but if you keep making mistakes, I will have no other choice but to degrade you from Mr. “Perfection” to Mr. “Close, but no cigar“! And you don’t know how much this will sadden me… well, maybe not.

And I do not dare explain, lest you mock me, how the heel plate works, and since you know so much, you already know how it works, so you should explain it to everyone and take the credit.

Design changes happen everyday in every industry. If some jacks have heel plates and others not, that was a decision taken by the engineers designing them, for whatever reason they saw fit. That is why today you are not working with steam powered trains, because some engineers decided to change a previous train design. If everyone thought that things could not be changed, you would still be shoveling coal into a steam engine today.

And you yourself damage your credibility when you explain things incorrectly and then make fun of anyone trying to correct your mistakes. You are just trying to cover your tracks with nasty and mocking remarks. That is very beautiful.

I never said that you told someone to remove the backups, never. Your are hallucinating. Better not smoke anything, or take any pills, you are just going to get crazier.

If no one else here has "picked up your posts apart" as you said, is because the other GJ members, unfortunately, don't know enough about repairing jacks, so they are unable to correct you.

If I show pictures with information is because I am sure you won't believe what I explain here, so I have no other choice but to show evidence of what I said. Everything I have presented here exist in the hydraulic industry literature, I am not making anything up. But I am pretty sure you have never seen before any of the charts or diagrams I have shown here, because the least thing you do if look up information. To you, what you do not know, does not exist.

Perhaps you should get the Parker guide, unless you think that they don't know anything at all and every bit of information they provide is false or wrong. I don't know, but if I have to choose a source of information, I would choose Parker over you every time. And if by any chance, you have their guide, you should read it, and them I won't be the only one who knows the information contained there. And you should call them, and tell them you are willing to teach them many things because they know nothing.

Do you even went to school? Because in schools they use things called books, perhaps you have seen one? And in the books, there is usually good, reliable information, otherwise no one would print them. So why does it bother you so much that I use the Parker book, or any other book, to find information. Where do you find your information, does it falls from the sky into your lap, do you find it under a rock or does it come to you in dreams. Are you a book burner, who think books are bad and should be destroyed because nothing good comes from them? If you lived in Salem in older times, you would probably had been the organizer of the witch burnings, since they would do things that you would not be able to understand, so therefore, they were bad. Bad witches!

It does not bother me that you are an "expert", what bothers me is that you don't know some basic things, despite the many years you say you have fixing jacks and the thousands upon thousands of jacks you have repaired as you have stated yourself.

Do not get me wrong, I do commend you for your effort and dedication in making this repair tutorial, but anything worth doing should be done right, otherwise don't bother doing it. And doing it right implies being up to date with the info required to do these repairs and not simply rely in the things you learned many years ago when the internet was not available to search for that information. You should strive to know more every day by using any available information resource, instead of chastising and making fun of others for doing so.


Waiting with anticipation your next sassy quick reply, full of mockery and nonsense, I leave you now.

And Again 9 Million Words but you seem to want to dance around the Same Questions.. ?

Tell me why other Lincoln big bore hydraulics use a Heel Plate and a Backup, Yet the 632/42 etc Use only a Heel Plate and Not a Backup? If the Heel plate is sufficient to prevent extrusion, Why not use it everywhere?

Because you Said So? I fully understand the Evolution of Jacks and How things change, but your Steam engine Analogy doesn't really fit the bill, Because we are talking about "Current" models and How some use strictly Heel plates and Others Use Heel Plates and Backups. And ive Said Many times, I Never went to school to learn about Hydraulics, Everything ive learned has been from "Hands On Experience, Visiting Other Shops across the US" and Amazingly Ive done pretty Well for myself. As I stated Earlier, Its Not Rocket Science in the 20+ Years ive been getting grease under my fingernails the bizness hasn't changed much, You seem to indicate you must pass a General Hydraulics Class put out by Parker annually to have any grasp of Orings/Ucups/backups. Ive Stated many times, Im all about Learning but teaching and Preaching are 2 different schools. Im Done with you and your banter, if your idea of Impressing the Community is Copy/Pasting my Individual pictures and Generic Seal Catalog/Parker Handbook.. So be it. Ill handle the Stuff with actual Shop photos, Detailed pictures of OEM parts indicating the Correct way to install Etc.

Good Day..

It is about the modular backup hardness. It just happens that the durometer of the modular backup is 65 shore D. Now, 65 shore D is not the same as 65 shore A. 65 shore D is a hard material equivalent to a 110 shore A. Below see a chart comparing the two durometers, plus Rockwell R.

So, the modular backup, in 65 shore D is hard material and not a soft material as you erroneously stated. How do you like “them” apples?

Case and Point.. Here is a situation where I simply asked a question on How 65 Durometer could be used as a Backup in a Ucup application and instead of saying "Hey Dummy your getting your A and D mixed up" This is your response? How you like them Apples? LOL.. Im Not Perfect, Never have claimed to know everything and Mess up Daily, Rest assured it wont be the last time I learn something while I walk in this world. I think it would **** to Go thru life already knowing everything..

 

[Hiball]

I just cant seem to Wrap my Head around the Heel Plate as a Backup... No Matter how hard I try, Maybe Im Dense.



Maybe its because it doesn't sit flush against a Rest in 32/42/52 Jacks, When you step into the 4-10 models The backup sits against the Heel Plate which has the Same OD size. Here is a Picture of the Smaller Bore Setup, As you can see It Rests against a Small Metal Washer with a Much Smaller OD. Ive Never seen a Backup operate this way? How would the Pressure even be Transferred to fill any Extrusion gaps? Thoughts Edgar? It Appears to me that if the Heel Plate is actually the Backup in these Jacks, Under load the Typical sealing point will be going the wrong direction, In other words away from the Gap. Not to mention the Distortion that would be created on the Face of the UCUP if in fact the Heel Plate is designed compress/seal.

 

[EDGAR]

Since, as always, you don't explain yourself correctly, I am going to assume that you are referring to the 93657, 4 ton and the 93660, 10 ton.

The 4 ton has mounted in first place in the ram what we could call a follower metal plate. Then it is followed by three thin backups made of nylon and on top of that it has the u-cup. Were do you see a heel plate there.

The 10 ton has first a metal follower plate and then just one thin nylon backup, followed by the u cup. Where do you see a heel plate there.

Are you by any chance calling the metal plate under the thin backups a heel plate. I hope not, because the heel plate is what you find in the 93xxx jacks. It is the thick, white collar, made of nylon. Anything else is not a heel plate.

If you have a different parts breakdown from the ones currently available, showing the supposed heel plate and the backup set up, please be kind enough to post it here, so I can study it and perhaps answer you question.

If the engineers changed the design, maybe it was cheaper to machine or the new parts were cheaper. As far as the performance, the heel plate works as well as the thin backups to prevent extrusion, so the change from one design to another was not performance related. But since you never believe anything I say, you will have to contact any big hydraulic seal distributor and ask them about how well the modular backups work, since the heel plate in the 93xxx jacks is a modular backup. You should also contact Shinn Fu so they can explain to you that the change was a money saving move and not performance related.

I don't even know why I try to answer your question if you have shown in your recent post that you know nothing about backups and nothing about heel plates/modular backups. The back ups are the one thing that allow 5000 psi seals to be used in higher PSI cylinders, so they are super important for the longevity of the seals, yet you think that they are not important and even disregard them as being totally useless and not needed anywhere.

So why do you care so much for the heels plates and the backups so much? To you, all backups have always been mere spacers, and you have said so in other threads many times. And you even said that in this thread, so that is why I started writing about the importance of the backups. It was not because some member had an issue with it, but because you said that they were mere spacers.

To this date, you still think that the heel plate is not a backup, and nothing I say will convince you. So instead of asking me questions about the heel plate, you should call Shinn Fu and ask them if the heel plate is a backup. But I don't know if you are going to believe them either, since you seem to be well set in your own thoughts. It is as easy as dialing their phone number to get the answer.

The heel plate shown in the picture expands against the cylinder and that is what prevents the extrusion. The heel plate does not has to go into the gap because that is not the way any back up works. No backup goes into the gap, it just expands over it and covers it. Please refer to the chart I sent you in a PM some time ago, where it explains that the backups expand under pressure and return to their shape after the pressure is off. And since the heel plate is so thick, it wont bend or flow into the gap as you so densely think it will when using the smaller diameter metal washer. With a thin nylon backup you would certainly need a closer fitting metal washer than the one shown in the picture and this closer fitting metal washer would be needed in any other application using thin backups, because the thinner nylon backup could bend into a bigger gap and not work as supposed, which is covering, or sealing, the gap completely. You know how close fitting are the heel plates that these sometimes get stuck in the cylinder and are difficult to remove, so it should be clear that it does not take huge pressures or a big movement, to expand them against the cylinder wall. They just have to expand very little and they are quickly sealing the gap. If you want to believe this good, if you don't want to, well, that is your problem. I can not explain it better than this.

And anyway, if I answer any of your questions, no matter what I answer, you are going to mock me and try to shoot down anything I say just because it was not you who said it. So big is your ego, that it does not allow you to understand unknown things or accept things said by others that are different from what you think. You are like the KKK of jack repair.

And if I have to write so many words, is because everything has to be explained to you fully and carefully. many times. To other persons I could explain this in one paragraph once.

 

[Hiball]

Since, as always, you don't explain yourself correctly, I am going to assume that you are referring to the 93657, 4 ton and the 93660, 10 ton.

The 4 ton has mounted in first place in the ram what we could call a follower metal plate. Then it is followed by three thin backups made of nylon and on top of that it has the u-cup. Were do you see a heel plate there.

The 10 ton has first a metal follower plate and then just one thin nylon backup, followed by the u cup. Where do you see a heel plate there.

Are you by any chance calling the metal plate under the thin backups a heel plate. I hope not, because the heel plate is what you find in the 93xxx jacks. It is the thick, white collar, made of nylon. Anything else is not a heel plate.

If you have a different parts breakdown from the ones currently available, showing the supposed heel plate and the backup set up, please be kind enough to post it here, so I can study it and perhaps answer you question.

If the engineers changed the design, maybe it was cheaper to machine or the new parts were cheaper. As far as the performance, the heel plate works as well as the thin backups to prevent extrusion, so the change from one design to another was not performance related. But since you never believe anything I say, you will have to contact any big hydraulic seal distributor and ask them about how well the modular backups work, since the heel plate in the 93xxx jacks is a modular backup. You should also contact Shinn Fu so they can explain to you that the change was a money saving move and not performance related.

I don't even know why I try to answer your question if you have shown in your recent post that you know nothing about backups and nothing about heel plates/modular backups. The back ups are the one thing that allow 5000 psi seals to be used in higher PSI cylinders, so they are super important for the longevity of the seals, yet you think that they are not important and even disregard them as being totally useless and not needed anywhere.

So why do you care so much for the heels plates and the backups so much? To you, all backups have always been mere spacers, and you have said so in other threads many times. And you even said that in this thread, so that is why I started writing about the importance of the backups. It was not because some member had an issue with it, but because you said that they were mere spacers.

To this date, you still think that the heel plate is not a backup, and nothing I say will convince you. So instead of asking me questions about the heel plate, you should call Shinn Fu and ask them if the heel plate is a backup. But I don't know if you are going to believe them either, since you seem to be well set in your own thoughts. It is as easy as dialing their phone number to get the answer.

The heel plate shown in the picture expands against the cylinder and that is what prevents the extrusion. The heel plate does not has to go into the gap because that is not the way any back up works. No backup goes into the gap, it just expands over it and covers it. Please refer to the chart I sent you in a PM some time ago, where it explains that the backups expand under pressure and return to their shape after the pressure is off. And since the heel plate is so thick, it wont bend or flow into the gap as you so densely think it will when using the smaller diameter metal washer. With a thin nylon backup you would certainly need a closer fitting metal washer than the one shown in the picture and this closer fitting metal washer would be needed in any other application using thin backups, because the thinner nylon backup could bend into a bigger gap and not work as supposed, which is covering, or sealing, the gap completely. You know how close fitting are the heel plates that these sometimes get stuck in the cylinder and are difficult to remove, so it should be clear that it does not take huge pressures or a big movement, to expand them against the cylinder wall. They just have to expand very little and they are quickly sealing the gap. If you want to believe this good, if you don't want to, well, that is your problem. I can not explain it better than this.

And anyway, if I answer any of your questions, no matter what I answer, you are going to mock me and try to shoot down anything I say just because it was not you who said it. So big is your ego, that it does not allow you to understand unknown things or accept things said by others that are different from what you think. You are like the KKK of jack repair.

And if I have to write so many words, is because everything has to be explained to you fully and carefully. many times. To other persons I could explain this in one paragraph once.

I'll post up comparisons when I get home but I know that the bigger models use a backup washer in between the Ucup, heel plate/metal thick washer. I believe if you scroll up a handful of posts you will clearly see I recanted that comment about the spacers. If the heel plate on a 32/42/52 does operated as a backup, it's the first one I've ever seen that operated by not having a solid surface behind it, whether in gland form or piston. You are Correct the heel guides do swell with age as they darken in color, but when new they don't fit overly tight, I still fail to see how you can even get a outer seal/expansion if the heel plate isn't supported on the backside fully. I don't think I would have a problem believing HW if they could explain "How" it works, that's a silly comment. I guess I just can't wrap my head around your explanation of how a non fully supported heel plate can operate as a backup, that's Ok though there are definitely no rules saying everyone has to agree. I might give Shinn fu a call/email Monday and see if I can find anyone who can shed some light on it. I've already got plans to install a PSI gauge on a 2 ton walker by piping into the valve port to see if a can get some PSI numbers to help explain how leverage affects cylinder pressure under load.

After looking at some of the Omega lineup in regards to Backups it does appear that at the least the Current lineup is using a Backup Washer behind the Ucup. I actually went back thru the entire Overseas Tutorial Looking at Members pictures and there is absolutely No Rhyme or Reason to when a Manufacturer uses a backup and when they don't, as there are plenty of example of both. My Only thought on the subject is that these newer jacks don't carry the tolerance's that the older ones did, thus they need to plug the gaps under Load. Maybe its a Cylinder size/Max Capacity issue? Im almost tempted to head out to the shop and tear one down just so I can get a grasp on the material and get some measurements between the Guide/Cylinder to see what type of fitment we have.

KKK? I think if you really go back and re-read your post your pretty adamant that its your way or the Hwy in regards to the Heel plate, And essentially my Opinion is ****. Please don't put words in my mouth in regards to backups and not being needed and simply discarded.. I've never said such a thing. I am curious to why some smaller frame jacks use them and others don't as indicated by pictures in this very thread.

 

[Hiball]

Alright I finally got some computer time to discuss your "Opinions" as its been a Long weekend full of a Family Reunion and Church Program. And for anyone following, these schematics can be found at Hein Werners website, Im not making stuff up.. Anyone is free to visit and look at the CURRENT Production HERE.

Since, as always, you don't explain yourself correctly, I am going to assume that you are referring to the 93657, 4 ton and the 93660, 10 ton.

Its the Only 4 and 10 Current Production Models by HW and over the Previous Lincoln Regime for the last 25 years that I referenced. I didn't feel the need to step back into the Early Walker Days, because they didn't use the Poly till the End of there campaign.

The 4 ton has mounted in first place in the ram what we could call a follower metal plate. Then it is followed by three thin backups made of nylon and on top of that it has the u-cup. Were do you see a heel plate there.

I call it Guide, follower is Ok, It is a Washer Per HW Part number 229749 but its sole job is to provide a solid backing and aid in keeping the Cylinder centered in the Bore. Next in Line is the 3 white rings, These have varied over the years from 1 solid piece to the most recent version of 3 individual rings with the same stack height, HW #229748.. These are in fact called a Heel Plate, NOT Backups and Lastly comes the Ucup.

The 10 ton has first a metal follower plate and then just one thin nylon backup, followed by the u cup. Where do you see a heel plate there.

Again.. Straight from the HW Website and represented by the Attachments below. HW is calling what you call a "Metal Follower" a "HEEL PLATE" Part number 229956, THEN the Backup #229900 and Lastly the UCUP. I can see by there PDF that there 662 model Air/10 ton shows #229900 with 3 individual pieces and calls them a backup in the parts diagram section but it also shows there is only "1" piece so im leaning towards them using the wrong Ram assembly in the 23195 picture as the Hydraulic Only (93660) portion of the Jack uses only 1 piece between the Heel/Ucup which would be a backup and doesn't match any of the Hard copies I have here at the house and have scanned them for Reference below. The Only Jacks that utilized the 3 separate Heel plates where the 4 ton models, In both Hydraulic 657 and Air/Hydraulic 667, The 10 ton models always had a Backup under the UCUP as represented by there diagrams, sandwiched between the UCUP and HEEL PLATE.

Are you by any chance calling the metal plate under the thin backups a heel plate. I hope not, because the heel plate is what you find in the 93xxx jacks. It is the thick, white collar, made of nylon. Anything else is not a heel plate.

And Yes.. I am calling them that, because that is what HW calls them as they provide a "Heel" similar to the Heel of a Shoe/boot or Solid Portion for the Ucup in the Case of the 4 ton, and the Backup/Ucup in the Case of the 10 ton to Rest against while under load. And this is Exactly Why I don't agree with your Assessment of heel plate being a Backup in the "32/42/52" Series Jacks, It simply doesn't follow suit with the other Bigger bore models based off there own literature. Not to mention I've never see a backup that wasn't fully encompassed in either gland or piston form without full support behind it.



And Its Ok that you don't agree with my Reasoning on Heel plates Job in the "32/42/52" Series Jacks, its OK to disagree and Its painfully Obvious by reading your earlier quote that you are insinuating that you are correct and I am Wrong and I'm literally Ignorant/dense because I don't agree, But on the Other Hand you cant Argue with Current Manufactures Design descriptions, its in Black and White for anyone to read. I did send a Email to HW's Tech department via the link on there website asking for clarification. We will see where that gets us.

@Community.. Don't let all this back and forth deter you from trying to fix your own Jack, Lots of Satisfied customers along the way and IMO, IF you simply replace existing seals with Seals of Equal or Sealing qualities you will be fine. If your Jack utilized a Washer/Backup/heelplate behind the UCUP, Re-Use it.. It doesn't get any more simple than that.











Good Day.

 

[Hiball]

Well... I received my Response from Mike Stevens who is the Tech Manager at Shinn Fu today in regards to the "Heel Plate" and its Job on the 32/42/52 Series Jacks. After some Communication back and forth he assured me that the Job was to Aid in "Centering the Ram" and "Providing a Backing Plate to Support the Ucup", I asked him to Clarify whether it was also used as a Backup and He Responded that it was again solely used as a "Backing Plate". Which IMO makes perfect sense based off its Parts Name as a Heel Plate, thus providing a solid Base for the Ucup, Not to Mention they do Use a combination of "Backups" and Heel plates in bigger bore jacks and label accordingly.

I was really on the Fence on how to handle the situation in the Forum, Especially after I had been Literally Beat up and had it insinuated that I needed to be talked to "Slow" and "It took literally 500 words to try and get the point across" and If I didn't understand it was My Problem because I simply didn't agree with Edgars Reasoning.

But... That Will do absolutely No good for the Community, So Im just going to turn the other cheek and Pass the information along to the Community, as quite frankly whether or Not the Heel Plate is triples as a Guide, Heel and Backup is a Moot point in the Overseas Tutorial.

I did get my 2 1/2" Face PSI Gauge ordered today, Im going to go with the 5k model initially and see what pressures im reading at the Cylinder once I figure out how to best Plumb the fitting to reduce the amount of Oil required to Load the Gauge and protect myself from high pressure hydraulic oil as it can be very dangerous to skin.

 

[TheEquineFencer]

FWIW, I just found this thread and stopped reading around the 16th post. Being the somewhat "jack leg" at times, I was given 1-1/2T Hiem-Warner that worked fine, but if it sat it leaked all the oil out overnight. After cleaning it several times, I finally figured out how to get the pump assembly out. refilled and let it sit to check for leaks. It was leaking out the ram where the rod comes out. I got the retaining nut off and the seals out. I reasoned there wasn't any pressure on them other than the oil when it was at rest. I figured they were just old and tired. A trip to the internet I found a seal kit for about $54. Nope, wrong answer, HF would be a lot less trouble I thought for a new jack. So off I went in search of some seals at the local Hydraulic shop. It ended up the guy gave me two nice fat o-rings for free. I stuffed them in and tightened the retaining nut, refilled and let it sit for a week. No leak. I installed it and so far so good. After reading these threads, I know where there's a pile of Walker Heavy Truck Floor jacks at I'm going to go get and try to fix them. Sometimes you just have to make things work for you. My hats off to you Hiball, you're a true engineering Guru.

 

[Hiball]

FWIW, I just found this thread and stopped reading around the 16th post. Being the somewhat "jack leg" at times, I was given 1-1/2T Hiem-Warner that worked fine, but if it sat it leaked all the oil out overnight. After cleaning it several times, I finally figured out how to get the pump assembly out. refilled and let it sit to check for leaks. It was leaking out the ram where the rod comes out. I got the retaining nut off and the seals out. I reasoned there wasn't any pressure on them other than the oil when it was at rest. I figured they were just old and tired. A trip to the internet I found a seal kit for about $54. Nope, wrong answer, HF would be a lot less trouble I thought for a new jack. So off I went in search of some seals at the local Hydraulic shop. It ended up the guy gave me two nice fat o-rings for free. I stuffed them in and tightened the retaining nut, refilled and let it sit for a week. No leak. I installed it and so far so good. After reading these threads, I know where there's a pile of Walker Heavy Truck Floor jacks at I'm going to go get and try to fix them. Sometimes you just have to make things work for you. My hats off to you Hiball, you're a true engineering Guru.

Well Im not going to take credit for Engineering any of these Hydraulic Jacks, but without a doubt replacing the Shell/oring design with correctly installed Ucup provides a much better seal. I'm strictly guessing based off your Description that you are Referencing a WS and you the Orings you "Stuffed" in behind the Retaining Nut where replacements for the Packing Material. In Cases like that, Especially Non Critical Areas where "Life or Limb" isn't going to be at stake you can sometimes get away with it, but I always recommend at Least Min Seal Replacements, Especially for Pump Pistons and Most Importantly Ram Seals where trying to use a Seal that doesn't meet OEM requirements or is even the Right Seal for the Application can be Deadly or Cause Injury to People and there Property. Its a No Brainer that Jacks stands need to be Used to support loads, But you don't want that Jack failing when you have the Stand about half way under the car and you end up with a Hole in your floor board/Gas tank or Needing to go change your Underwear.

 

[TravisT]

This isn't good, no?

I was hoping for the overload valve being backed off being the problem.
No such luck. The overload valve was tightened all the way down. I'm assuming that's what caused the seal blowing out?

Since this one has some sort of cup seal it looks like instead of the o-ring like yours, is it still feasable to rebuild it? Where could I get the seal? You maybe? LOL

I know I'm reviving an old post on this thread, but I just dismantled my AM-200-F Matco Jack and have to say that I think this is the model of the Jack shown. I can't find any differences in mine and the picture you posted except for the fact that yours doesn't have the metal adhesive Matco model plate on the top of the jack.
Mine does not have the welded hole on the side, but there is some sort of machining there.

 

[gilbert0]

Just wanted to say thanks for this tutorial! My old craftsman 1 1/2 ton jack is now in working order again.



This was the problem.

 

[Hiball]

Just wanted to say thanks for this tutorial! My old craftsman 1 1/2 ton jack is now in working order again.



This was the problem.

That does appear to be a Problem..

Glad it Helped..

 

[TheEquineFencer]

Well Im not going to take credit for Engineering any of these Hydraulic Jacks, but without a doubt replacing the Shell/oring design with correctly installed Ucup provides a much better seal. I'm strictly guessing based off your Description that you are Referencing a WS and you the Orings you "Stuffed" in behind the Retaining Nut where replacements for the Packing Material. In Cases like that, Especially Non Critical Areas where "Life or Limb" isn't going to be at stake you can sometimes get away with it, but I always recommend at Least Min Seal Replacements, Especially for Pump Pistons and Most Importantly Ram Seals where trying to use a Seal that doesn't meet OEM requirements or is even the Right Seal for the Application can be Deadly or Cause Injury to People and there Property. Its a No Brainer that Jacks stands need to be Used to support loads, But you don't want that Jack failing when you have the Stand about half way under the car and you end up with a Hole in your floor board/Gas tank or Needing to go change your Underwear.

Yep,WS jack, it's the seals that do not have any hydraulic pressure on them, just static fluid pressure. I would never jerry rig the seals on a pressure side. If they fail, I think the worst it would do is leak fluid on the floor.

 

[Hiball]

Yep,WS jack, it's the seals that do not have any hydraulic pressure on them, just static fluid pressure. I would never jerry rig the seals on a pressure side. If they fail, I think the worst it would do is leak fluid on the floor.

Correct...

 

[Old Hawaiian]

Anyone know where to get a plastic ball bearing retainer replacement?

I have a Larin (LY-3) 2 1/2 ton floor jack. Been a trusted friend for decades and it doesn't leak.

Rear swivel caster is steel 2 inch (H) X 1 inch (W) that has 9 ball bearings. one of my retainers is cracked all the way through. Only need one, but wouldn't mind replacement kit for both rear swivel casters.

Thanks ahead of time.

Rick

 

[Hiball]

Anyone know where to get a plastic ball bearing retainer replacement?

I have a Larin (LY-3) 2 1/2 ton floor jack. Been a trusted friend for decades and it doesn't leak.

Rear swivel caster is steel 2 inch (H) X 1 inch (W) that has 9 ball bearings. one of my retainers is cracked all the way through. Only need one, but wouldn't mind replacement kit for both rear swivel casters.

Thanks ahead of time.

Rick

Sorry I'm not aware of anyone who will sell the retainer alone, maybe try contacting a caster company with the dimensions and see what they say. Another good Source for hydraulic parts/seals is a company call Hydraulic Parts Supply out of Sawyer Kansas, Mr. Steve Flora is a very knowledgable person and carries a large supply of hydraulic parts/seals/kits.

They can be reached at 620-594-2247 Tell them Steve from Mexico Missouri sent you.

 

[Old Hawaiian]

Steve,

Thanks! Called Steve at Hydraulic Parts Supply and he has new casters on the shelf.

Rick

 

[Hiball]

Steve,

Thanks! Called Steve at Hydraulic Parts Supply and he has new casters on the shelf.

Rick

Good to hear.. Steve is one of the Old schools guys.

 

[Old Hawaiian]

Hiball - I decided not to buy the replacement casters from Steve. Steve's Great and like I said up above he had everything on the shelf. Awesome POC!

I took an old Tupperware dish and cut out the flat bottom. Using the other good retainer I traced and cut out a replacement retainer. I used a small round burr and cleaned up the bearing seats and then finished those up with a fiber burr to smooth them out. When the 1/4" Chrome bearings came in from EBay I put everything back together and it works better than before.

Thanks for sharing the talent and contact. Great place - Great people.

Just couldn't spend the $70 (w/SH). Had a fleeting cranial gas pass moment to buy a new floor jack but didn't give in to temptation. Fleeting being the operative word.

Besides - I'm old and love to tinker in the garage.

Rick

 

[Hiball]

Hiball - I decided not to buy the replacement casters from Steve. Steve's Great and like I said up above he had everything on the shelf. Awesome POC!

I took an old Tupperware dish and cut out the flat bottom. Using the other good retainer I traced and cut out a replacement retainer. I used a small round burr and cleaned up the bearing seats and then finished those up with a fiber burr to smooth them out. When the 1/4" Chrome bearings came in from EBay I put everything back together and it works better than before.

Thanks for sharing the talent and contact. Great place - Great people.

Just couldn't spend the $70 (w/SH). Had a fleeting cranial gas pass moment to buy a new floor jack but didn't give in to temptation. Fleeting being the operative word.

Besides - I'm old and love to tinker in the garage.

Rick

No Biggie... To be honest I would have a hard time dropping that much New casters for that jack. Congrats on working around your problem, where there is a will there is a way.

 

[dc5itr329]

Just wanted to say thanks for this tutorial! My old craftsman 1 1/2 ton jack is now in working order again.



This was the problem.

I have the same jack! Where did you get the parts from?

 

[Old Hawaiian]

BTW - The total repair cost for my old friend was $4

Am old enough to not to tell the wife that I "borrowed" one of her favorite containers.

If she mentions anything, I'm going to remind her of when she used my new MATCO screwdriver to dig up weeds.

After 34 years of marriage it's times like this that add spicy conversations at dinner =-b

 

[PureLeaf]

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Just inherited this jack from my Grandfather. Cleaned it up, and everything seems great other then this unfortunate fracture in the front wheel. The fracture doesn't appear to go all way through but its a little disappointing with an otherwise great looking jack. I realise in pics it looks almost like a large paint chip but unfortunately the crack is fairly deep.

Anyone know if its possible to buy a replacement wheel? Or would I have to find someone's junked jack and cannibalize for parts?

 

[Hiball]

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Just inherited this jack from my Grandfather. Cleaned it up, and everything seems great other then this unfortunate fracture in the front wheel. The fracture doesn't appear to go all way through but its a little disappointing with an otherwise great looking jack. I realise in pics it looks almost like a large paint chip but unfortunately the crack is fairly deep.

Anyone know if its possible to buy a replacement wheel? Or would I have to find someone's junked jack and cannibalize for parts?

Can't see any pictures.