P&C Stuff

[Rileysan]

Full disclosure:

That came from a local auction that ended an hour ago. I got into a bidding war with another buyer. The final price was ... more than I wanted to pay, but I refused to give in. I've never seen better and I'll take some photos in the next few days.

Brian

 

[Outlawmws]

Wow, is the outside that nice?

 

[Rileysan]

Wow, is the outside that nice?

Not sure. There's definitely shelf wear and an auction tag I'm concerned about. I pick it up tomorrow.

 

[Smokeshow69]

Not sure. There's definitely shelf wear and an auction tag I'm concerned about. I pick it up tomorrow.

I think we can get the tag off without ruining any paint! I have had quite a bit of experience . I can’t tell if the paint is wrinkled or smooth?


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[bmwrd0]

Dang Riley! That is too sweet!

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Nice snag, Brian. It would've been special just for the NOS condition and near-completeness, even without the paperwork and the little factory ID tag.

 

[outofbounds]

I'll just leave this right here.

I'm slow on the uptake. Did you pass on this based on price?

 

[Smokeshow69]

Nice snag, Brian. It would've been special just for the NOS condition and near-completeness, even without the paperwork and the little factory ID tag.

Totally agreed. I think the only piece on this thread that is nicer is the set that someone has in the cardboard box? I can’t remember who it is but I think it is a war time plomb style 3/8 set ? At any rate, finding tools in their packaging due to their age is nearly possible. I was egging rileysan on the make sure he stood tall on the bid because I want to see it so badly. You never find complete sets of p&c, even this close to the factory.


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[Rileysan]

I'm slow on the uptake. Did you pass on this based on price?

I purchased it. I kept the initial post short because I didn't want to let on how excited I was. You know the adage - Act like you've been here before!

A set in this condition is unheard of - even in the manufacturer's backyard. I've seen a lot of really great (and rare) P&C sets, but never one as nice as this, though the tools themselves are not rare or even uncommon.

I've got something else on my plate before work today, so I won't be picking it up until tomorrow.

Brian

 

[jabberwoki]

Mmmm I wonder who you were bidding against?

 

[3baygarage]

Very nice. Show us that card when you get it.

 

[r_olson_06]

I purchased it. I kept the initial post short because I didn't want to let on how excited I was. You know the adage - Act like you've been here before!

A set in this condition is unheard of - even in the manufacturer's backyard. I've seen a lot of really great (and rare) P&C sets, but never one as nice as this, though the tools themselves are not rare or even uncommon.

I've got something else on my plate before work today, so I won't be picking it up until tomorrow.

Brian

It was an amazing set.
I had one SK set that I picked up a few years back and then sold off. From the diamond era pre Wayne. Case was mint and had the orginal price tag in it. It was like someone got it as a gift and put in on the shelf and forgot about it.
I wonder the story behind that set if it had a similar life.

Looking for the following Plomb Pebbles Wrench 3061

 

[Smokeshow69]

Mmmm I wonder who you were bidding against?

Was his name jabberwoki? [emoji23][emoji23]


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[jabberwoki]

No smoky not me, im really not looking anymore I`d have to trip over something I don`t have to get a new piece.

 

[Smokeshow69]

No smoky not me, im really not looking anymore I`d have to trip over something I don`t have to get a new piece.

Understood. I know that you have a pretty extensive collection


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[Rileysan]

I finally picked up my auction winnings. The company moved to another suburb 30 miles from home as opposed to less than 1 mile from my employer, so I had to wait until today to get this:

P&C 6000k 1/2" drive, 17 piece standard socket set - sans 5" & 10" extensions.

The set was offered at least as far back as 1948. I suspect this set dates from late 1950s or 1960s based on the change in design of the socket box, but I'm still not sure as the catalog illustrations leave much to be desired.

This set was owned by the Bonneville Power Administration (thank you BPA for engraving all your tools!) and probably sat on a shelf in a tool room for its entire life. There's very little wear on the inside of the box where you would expect to find it. All I did today was wipe everything down with WD-40 and line the box with paper shop towels to help preserve the paint before placing the tools back inside.

Brian

 

[Rileysan]

There was also a brochure in the box that I assume came with the set. It is titled: Handy Pocket Catalog.

 

[four.cycle]

I've held off commenting on this one because you didn't actually have it in your possession when you first posted it.
Notwithstanding the engravings, the condition of the set and the bonus pocket catalog put that into the "too cool to be true" category.
Excellent find, sir.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Does the little catalog have a date on it somewhere? Maybe the back? Surely the factory stuck that in there. If it was going to be missing something two extensions are not as conspicuous as a ratchet and a hinge handle or even two sockets. Looks terrific.

 

[Catfishdan]

Oh my. That must be the best looking P&C find I’ve ever seen. Well done sir!

 

[outofbounds]

I finally picked up my auction winnings. The company moved to another suburb 30 miles from home as opposed to less than 1 mile from my employer, so I had to wait until today to get this:

P&C 6000k 1/2" drive, 17 piece standard socket set - sans 5" & 10" extensions.

Brian

Brilliant buy, Rileysan.

At the risk of sounding foolish, but out of innocent curiosity, is that ratchet a Thorsen product? Bears a resemblance to a few I've had.

 

[bmwrd0]

Again, very nice Brian. Proto, as I am sure you know, used the same box (painted red) during the LA period. I think I put up a pic of one in the Proto thread is you are curious.

 

[bmwrd0]

Brilliant buy, Rileysan.

At the risk of sounding foolish, but out of innocent curiosity, is that ratchet a Thorsen product? Bears a resemblance to a few I've had.

P&C also made open gear ratchets. Very similar to the Thorsen ones, for reasons of history! (Thorsen was founded by ex-P&C employees, but I think they developed the open gear ratchet. Someone will chime in with more infor I am sure.)

 

[lardy1]

I've read that chapter in history. Alloy Artifacts, I believe. I don't retain as well as I once did.

 

[MR.X]

Brilliant buy, Rileysan.

At the risk of sounding foolish, but out of innocent curiosity, is that ratchet a Thorsen product? Bears a resemblance to a few I've had.

Post 846 in this thread and for background, posts 500 and 501 of the "post up your Thorsen Tools!" thread.

 

[MR.X]

Does the little catalog have a date on it somewhere? Maybe the back? Surely the factory stuck that in there. If it was going to be missing something two extensions are not as conspicuous as a ratchet and a hinge handle or even two sockets. Looks terrific.

In that 3rd photo of the brochure just to the left of where it says "handy pocket catalog" on the bottom of the cover page looks like one of those "litho in u.s.a." with the 4 digit stamp. Can't make it out though.......Brian, little help?

 

[MR.X]

I finally picked up my auction winnings. The company moved to another suburb 30 miles from home as opposed to less than 1 mile from my employer, so I had to wait until today to get this:

P&C 6000k 1/2" drive, 17 piece standard socket set - sans 5" & 10" extensions.

The set was offered at least as far back as 1948. I suspect this set dates from late 1950s or 1960s based on the change in design of the socket box, but I'm still not sure as the catalog illustrations leave much to be desired.

Brian

Looks like the 3/8" box with the basic 1/2" set(-) from the 59 catalog

 

[Private Lugnutz]

P&C also made open gear ratchets. Very similar to the Thorsen ones, for reasons of history! (Thorsen was founded by ex-P&C employees, but I think they developed the open gear ratchet. Someone will chime in with more infor I am sure.)

Post 846 in this thread and for background, posts 500 and 501 of the "post up your Thorsen Tools!" thread.

MR. X's excellent catalog timeline analysis shows that Thorsen made an open-gear ratchet first (at least as early as 1934..., with P&C following suit sometime after 1936 and at least as early as 1939), but that doesn't explain why P&C's open-gear rat looks so similar, near-identical, if not exactly identical. After all, many other mfgr's were making open-gear ratchets for many, many years. They don't all look like Thorsen's. So why would P&C's look like a Thorsen knock-off? Beemer alludes to the answer. I have pointed it out before. Peter Mortensen. He was the tool-and-die guy who left P&C with Ned Boyd to form Thorsen in 1929 - and the only guy who went back to P&C some time in the 30's. I think he took the design he originated at Thorsen back to P&C.

There are other P&C/Thorsen similarities. The use of the "MFD." marking, as an abbreviation for "Manufactured", for example. Sure, Plomb used it too, but only after they had acquired P&C, raising the distinct possibility that it could've been a convention Plomb picked up from P&C. What is the only other company I can find who used the exact same abbreviation (not just "MFD", but "MFD.") on their products? That's right: Thorsen (and Thorsen spin-offs Giller and Dayton). That can just be a coincidence, I suppose. But it's awful curious with a lead tool-and-die working for both outfits.

In that 3rd photo of the brochure just to the left of where it says "handy pocket catalog" on the bottom of the cover page looks like one of those "litho in u.s.a." with the 4 digit stamp. Can't make it out though.......Brian, little help?

Good catch. Near that is a pre-Zip Code postal code address, too. So, before 1963.

 

[MR.X]

At some point I may get the motivation to check on Mortensen's actual move date back to the Portland area. ( Maybe someone else would like to pick up that ball?)He may well have moved back prior to Thorsen marketing that style of ratchet for all I know. In which case it's still likely that the connection is still the source if just a little less directly. The only sources I know about the P&C / Thorsen move other than the vagueish 1929 Milwaukie Review microfiche article in the Milwaukie, Oregon public library (which obviously preceded any return of employees), is the Lawton Shurtleff account and my conversation with John Derville Jr whose father was close friends and a business partner of Ned Boyd when they were running the retail arm of P&C in the late 20's. The summary of which appears on the AA site in various forms under both companies.

 

[lardy1]

I wasn't aware of P&C using the "MFD" abbreviation. I remember reading it was typically a Thorsen attribute so I've always assumed this otherwise unmarked ratchet was Thorsen.

 

[MR.X]

Good catch. Near that is a pre-Zip Code postal code address, too. So, before 1963.

Good catch to you too and continuing in this vein...it looks like tools themselves have the registered trademark R. Which would indicate.....53? or after. The brochure's tools don't seem to show it but the front page hex looks like it has it. I'm fully ready to be corrected by those with better eyesight/ computer screens.

 

[MR.X]

I really haven't payed much attention to P&C and Thorsen tools after the 40's....do we know who started putting those little covers on those "open gear" ratchets first?

 

[Rileysan]

Good catch to you too and continuing in this vein...it looks like tools themselves have the registered trademark R. Which would indicate.....53? or after. The brochure's tools don't seem to show it but the front page hex looks like it has it. I'm fully ready to be corrected by those with better eyesight/ computer screens.

To answer the question - there's a form number but no date on the pocket catalog (5667). Can this be translated as 1956?

The registered trademark is on all the tools.

Brian

 

[MR.X]

To answer the question - there's a form number but no date on the pocket catalog (5667). Can this be translated as 1956?

The registered trademark is on all the tools.

Brian

Oh those numbers are right, all right.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

...there's a form number but no date on the pocket catalog (5667). Can this be translated as 1956?

Absolutely. That is a sequential Plomb Empire format that the publications department used. Every unique publication, from catalogs to pamphlets to flyers to advertisements, were given a unique 4-digit number, where the first two digits was the year and the second two the individual publication. It was first adopted by Plomb in 1948. So essentially that little folding pocket catalog was the 67th thing they released that year.

 

[four.cycle]

Catalog illustrations showing the Thorsen model 77 open-gear ratchet from the 1934 Thorsen catalog No. 3334 are posted HERE

"...(and Thorsen spin-offs Giller and Dayton)..."

As near as i have been able to gather, from various comments here, and actually owning the tools, is that Thorsen and Giller were "sister" companies (like Duro Chrome and Indestro) and the product (as near as I can tell from examples I own) came off the same production line.
Giller was strictly military/government contract stuff.
The "Dayton" brand was (for the most part) made by Thorsen for Grainger in Chicago.

To answer the question - there's a form number but no date on the pocket catalog (5667). Can this be translated as 1956?

I'm going to agree with Private Lugnutz on that one - that it's 1956 - but for a different reason: looking at and handling hundreds and hundreds of catalogs from all kinds of tool and auto parts manufacturers for decades. (And of course the "Occam's Razor" thing.)

 

[MR.X]

I'm gonna agree because it is a 56.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

There was some bonney production for dayton. I have a couple stray 1/4 drive tools.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

As near as I have been able to gather, from various comments here, and actually owning the tools, is that Thorsen and Giller were "sister" companies (like Duro Chrome and Indestro) and the product (as near as I can tell from examples I own) came off the same production line. Giller was strictly military/government contract stuff. The "Dayton" brand was (for the most part) made by Thorsen for Grainger in Chicago.

I think of them more like subsidiaries of Thorsen, not sister companies or brands (like Action). Agreed on Giller's market, but I thought the plant was in Texas? I could be wrong about that. But I'm not going to fall on my sword over it. Subsidiaries or sister companies or spin-offs. My point was that while we tend to think of the "MFD." marking as a Plomb thing (often used as an era separator, with Pebble production caught in the middle of the changeover from "MADE" to "MFD."), or a P&C thing (vis-à-vis Plomb), and yet it was also a Thorsen thing. All primarily west coast companies with one man in common.

I'm going to agree with Private Lugnutz on that one - that it's 1956 - but for a different reason: looking at and handling hundreds and hundreds of catalogs from all kinds of tool and auto parts manufacturers for decades. (And of course the "Occam's Razor" thing.)

Occam's Razor would fail you in many cases on this subject, 4.c. Not to cast doubt on your time in your family's shop with all that wonderful literature, but a system of coding catalogs and other publications really wasn't as universal as you may remember, especially in the early days. Just staying with Plomb, for example. Prior to 1949 they used a much simpler system starting with good old No. 1. By 1925 they were up to No. 6. They added letters when they issued more than one catalog in a year. No. 10-C was published late in 1931, for example. No. 17-B mid-1939. With no correlation to the year implicit in the numbering system. Bonney was the same way. Bonney's catalog No. 18 was published in 1914. Using the Occam Razor approach, one might conclude that Herbrand's catalog No. 50-M was published in 1950, but in fact it was their 1937 offerings. Vlchek's numbering system had no bearing in chronology whatsoever. Blackhawk's was intuitive, but backwards, with some kind of sequence or perhaps type identifier in front. No. 326 was not published in 1932, but 1926. No. 231 not in 1923, but 1931.

 

[four.cycle]

"There was some bonney production for dayton..."

I'm not sure i phrased my statement above correctly for this group of pedants.

Should have said "Thorsen produced (at least) some of the Dayton wrenches and sockets.
Most of the Dayton I see listed on Ebay is Thorsen made, but my focus is primarily on sockets, wrenches, and ratchets, so it may well be a rather myopic view.
I know that Grainger outsourced the "Dayton" brand from various manufacturers, just as Montgomery Ward, Penneys, and others did.