Pacemakers

[rmack898]

It seems there are a growing number of American Pacemaker lathes showing up here on GJ.

Slodats new 14x30 toolroom lathe is a beautiful example and has generated much interest and questions.

I know of at least 6 members here that have nice pacemakers so I thought I would start a thread dedicated to Pacemaker questions and issues, as suggested by ClappedOutBport.

I'll start it off. Here's a pic of me unloading my 14x54 after moving it from my old shop in NJ to my new shop in Florida. I've had it in place for many months and still don't have power to it. I should have it powered up and making chips again in the next few weeks.

 

[slodat]

Mac - this is funny. I just came here to make a thread about tooling for my lathe. I'll put that stuff in here. As Mac mentioned, I brought home a 1953 American Tool Works Pacemaker 14 x 30. 15HP spindle, taper attachment, lube pump, 27 speed. About 5000 pounds. Came out of the shipyard. It has a nice Newall DRO and is in pretty good mechanical condition with some serious patina.



Photos at the seller's place when I bought the lathe:

















I've been asked several times if I'm sure it has a 15hp motor. It does:





Just after getting it unloaded:





Video of unloading and setting the lathe in place:

Test run on the rotary phase converter:

As it sits now after some cleaning:

 

[slodat]

My lathe came with a Sjogren 2J speed chuck, two face plates and a nice four jaw chuck. I want a 3 jaw for day to day stuff where I don't need to spend the time dialing in a 4 jaw. I hastily ordered an inexpensive import from CME Tools. I've had good luck with the CAT40 tooling I've ordered from them for my mill. It was only $200, so not a huge deal if the chuck is a POS.

I have read a ton of threads online about chuck size and so on. I feel like most of what I'm going to be doing is somewhat small in diameter. If I need bigger capacity, I have the 4 jaw. So, I was thinking of a Bison 10" 3 jaw after some discussion in another thread. It's a direct mount. Waiting to hear back on a shipping quote.

I'm interested in input on the 3 jaw chuck purchase. New chucks are spendy and I'm not seeing much used that's in good shape.

 

[Steve from Socal]

I don't have a Pacemaker; I do have several Monarch lathes around that size. I would suggest an 8" 3 jaw personally, it is light enough to put on without a crane. The collet chuck and 8" may be the most used spindle options. I really prefer 4 jaw chucks myself but have several 3 jaws from 6-10" 10" chucks are getting pretty heavy to toss on by hand.

Good luck to all you folks with these fantastic machines.

Steve

 

[ez-duzit]

...I do have several Monarch lathes around that size...

So that's where they all went.

 

[slodat]

Thank you for the insight, Steve. Ajax has a Bison semi steel direct mount 8” and 10”. I’m not seeing a forged direct mount Bison. Toolmex lists a forged direct mount L1 in 8 and 10”.. not seeing anyone with these on their websites. Do I care about forged vs semi steel? What are your thoughts on the set tru chucks?

 

[DocsMachine]

I know of at least 6 members here that have nice pacemakers so I thought I would start a thread dedicated to Pacemaker questions and issues, as suggested by ClappedOutBport.

I'll start it off. Here's a pic of me unloading my 14x54 after moving it from my old shop in NJ to my new shop in Florida.

-First major question: ... Can I have that?

Second major question: If yes, will it fit into a Flat Rate box?

Doc.

 

[Steve from Socal]

Thank you for the insight, Steve. Ajax has a Bison semi steel direct mount 8” and 10”. I’m not seeing a forged direct mount Bison. Toolmex lists a forged direct mount L1 in 8 and 10”.. not seeing anyone with these on their websites. Do I care about forged vs semi steel? What are your thoughts on the set tru chucks?

A forged chuck would be nice, speed is really the factor for any chuck. What is the top speed you plan on running the chuck? At or below 2500 any of the 8" chucks would be safe. My thoughts on this are, the collet chuck up to 1 3/8 then the 8" chuck to about 2 1/2-3" work. I use my 12 or 15" 4 jaw for larger work. The clamping pressure of the larger chucks is important with a 15HP machine.

I have a Buck 10" 6 jaw set-true chuck, honestly, it is as much work as a 4 jaw IMHO The one other thing I would suggest, get a chuck with removable top jaws.

Steve

 

[slodat]

Steve- thanks for the information! I really appreciate it. I’m reading conflicting info on the set tru chucks. Some recommend them, some don’t. I think I’m going to not get this style for now. I am sold on two piece jaws for sure. I had not thought about clamping pressure. The price difference between 8 and 10 inch isn’t a whole lot. So... 10” direct mount forged if I can locate one. Otherwise semi-steel. Top speed on the lathe is 2000.

 

[dr_clyde]

I would love a Pacemaker in my shop. They truly were among the finest machine tools ever built.

I’ve got my feelers out for a Hardinge HLV-H at the moment.

 

[rmack898]

Steven, I have a 10" chuck on the Pacemaker and an 8" on the Monarch and they seem to accommodate my work well.

I will say that when you wind up the spindle on the Pacemaker, a 10" chuck at 1000 RPMs plus can get just a little bit scary. A steel chuck at that speed is a must in my mind.

Ajax has been the cheapest source for new Bison tooling that I have found although it's been a few years since I bought from them and things may have changed.

 

[rmack898]

I would love a Pacemaker in my shop. They truly were among the finest machine tools ever built.

Doc there are still many of them to be had, you just have to look for them.

When my son realized that I was taking my Pacemaker with me when I move and he was going to lose access to it, he went on the hunt and soon found his own that he stored in my garage until it was time for me to move.

Here's some pics of it in my garage and us moving it out to his garage about a mile away. He will have to move it again from his garage to his shop as soon as his shop is finished.
Here is his build thread.

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=460181&highlight=modest

 

[homebuilt burner]

I worked at a shop that had a Pacemaker 18x96. That machine was a beast. It had the same look as the ones posted. I always liked that Art Deco styling. 3 and 4 jaw, with taper attachment.

 

[Steve from Socal]

Steve- thanks for the information! I really appreciate it. I’m reading conflicting info on the set tru chucks. Some recommend them, some don’t. I think I’m going to not get this style for now. I am sold on two piece jaws for sure. I had not thought about clamping pressure. The price difference between 8 and 10 inch isn’t a whole lot. So... 10” direct mount forged if I can locate one. Otherwise semi-steel. Top speed on the lathe is 2000.

A 10" chuck is a good all around size except, they are heavy. If you plan on using several larger chucks regularly get a jib crane. A small HF type pick up bed crane can be bolted to the back of the machine. I have a jib crane for my 2013 and 13EE(15.5) swing lathes. A collet chuck or the 8" are the only thing I handle without the crane.

Steve

 

[macgyver37]

One thing to consider is the smallest diameter material you can chuck onto. My 12" 4 jaw on my medium sized lathe will only clamp down to 5/8". Annoying at times.

+1 on putting a jib crane on the machine as well. It will save both the operator and the machine from getting beat up from handling the chucks and materials. Since you have a 15" machine, there will be a time where you use that capacity.

 

[ez-duzit]

One thing to consider is the smallest diameter material you can chuck onto. My 12" 4 jaw on my medium sized lathe will only clamp down to 5/8". Annoying at times...

Rather than changing chucks, for the occasional small diameter, how about chucking up one of those hex-shaped collet blocks?

 

[DocsMachine]

Rather than changing chucks, for the occasional small diameter, how about chucking up one of those hex-shaped collet blocks?

-I just walk over to one of my smaller lathes.

Doc.

 

[Skiff Builder]

rmack,
You being you, and formerly from NJ, the title of your thread made me think you were talking about these guys from Egg Harbor City!

 

[dr_clyde]

Rather than changing chucks, for the occasional small diameter, how about chucking up one of those hex-shaped collet blocks?

-I just walk over to one of my smaller lathes.

Doc.

I like and use the small collet blocks occasionally, but having a smaller lathe is really handy. The collet blocks are more used on the manual mill when I need to cut a hex or do some basic indexing. I've also been known to chuck up a small Buck 6 jaw or 3 jaw in the 4 jaw when I'm too lazy to take it off. My LeBlond has a 14" 4 jaw with an L2 spindle, so it takes a hot minute to swap the chucks, even with a crane! I want to say I weighed that 4 jaw chuck at one point and it was in excess of 150#. I know my 12" Kalamazoo 3 jaw is more, as that chuck is solid steel and the 4 jaw is cast iron with lots of weight removed.

Ultimately the solution is to just buy more lathes. The correct number of lathes is N+1 where N is the number of lathes you currently own.

 

[matt_i]

Rather than changing chucks, for the occasional small diameter, how about chucking up one of those hex-shaped collet blocks?

The nice thing about Sjogren or dedicated hard collet noses (with drawtube) is that that concentricity is right-on without any fooling around.

A hex block in a 3 jaw is anyone's guess as to how concentric it is, and then non-adjustable. The hex body wouldn't play nice with a 4 jaw. Would be better imo to have a square bodied collet block for use with the 4 jaw and indicate true each time.

2J has a nice extra range over 5C but are somewhat rare birds. I've used collets fairly often when reboring small spur gears and any work on an existing fastener.

 

[Duker]

Mac, great idea on the thread. I have a 1947 16” x 54” multi-production model.

Some of you mentioned having a gantry to install chucks which I am now a believer in after having having lifted a 15.75” three jaw up in just trying to store it much less trying to install it on the lathe. Does anyone have experience with the Skyhook lifts? It will be awhile before I can build something so I was wondering if this was a viable option.

 

[rmack898]

rmack,
You being you, and formerly from NJ, the title of your thread made me think you were talking about these guys from Egg Harbor City!

I worked on enough of that kind of Pacemaker back in the day, replaced a transom or two.

 

[slodat]

I appreciate the input on the chuck! I got a set of 2J collets on eBay. They are 1/4 - 1” in 32nds with only three missing and 1-1/8, 1-1/4 and 1-3/8. I also had a few that came with the lathe. I would rather use a collet on the smaller stuff. I’m thinking the 8” 3 jaw would be nice for swapping on and off. The Bison direct mount 8” or 10” is in stock. Any reason I want the 10” over the 8”?

 

[rmack898]

Any reason I want the 10” over the 8”?

Since you have a nice collet chuck, my only reasoning would be that you can do small work in a big chuck but you can't do big work in a small chuck.

 

[Steve from Socal]

I appreciate the input on the chuck! I got a set of 2J collets on eBay. They are 1/4 - 1” in 32nds with only three missing and 1-1/8, 1-1/4 and 1-3/8. I also had a few that came with the lathe. I would rather use a collet on the smaller stuff. I’m thinking the 8” 3 jaw would be nice for swapping on and off. The Bison direct mount 8” or 10” is in stock. Any reason I want the 10” over the 8”?

I would go with the 8" direct mount as I mentioned, it is a good intermediate chuck. I have 2J collets and collet chucks for my 10EE, 13EE and Series 62 2013. These are much better grip than a 5C collet and have a wider range.

The smaller/lighter work in either the collet chuck or 8" are maybe 70% of jobs I do. I do use my smaller 10EE for most of the small work but, if I only had one medium size lathe that is the set up I would favor.

As far a a crane, you don't need a 2 ton crane, even a 15" 4 jaw is at most a few hundred pounds.

Steve

 

[slodat]

Received the $200 CME Tools 8” 3 jaw chuck. It will get me going. I’ll use it for a while and see how it works out, with the plan to replace with a Bison at some point. I appreciate all of the advice!

 

[86turbodsl]

Do i need to post pics? Its still sitting over in the corner waiting for more attention.

I have picked up a 15" faceplate, 9" 3 jaw, 12" 4 jaw, dog drive plate, and a couple other goodies. I can't wait to use it.

 

[slodat]

I got the lathe in its final position in the shop, leveled and cut some test bars. I'm amazed at how well the test bars turned out. A true testament to the quality of these lathes. This lathe is 68 years old, lived in the shipyard it's whole life and still has 0.0004" headstock -> tailstock alignment over a 10" bar. And, depending on the insert used, 1 to 6 tenths over 7.5" on the unsupported two collar test. I'm still kind of in shock. I did the tests again with the same results. I highly recommend a Pacemaker if you have the option.

 

[slodat]

Can anyone point me to the carriage lock? There are several SHCS, but I don't know which/where the carriage lock is..

 

[Graham08]

I would be willing to bet the carriage lock is the square headed fastener immediately to the right of the compound in your photo.

 

[ez-duzit]

I would be willing to bet the carriage lock is the square headed fastener immediately to the right of the compound in your photo.

I just posted that on another forum. That's what it looks like on my Logan.

 

[Graham08]

I just posted that on another forum. That's what it looks like on my Logan.

Yup, my Sheldon is the same way. I have one of these that lives on it full time:

https://www.mcmaster.com/square-wrenches/socket-wrenches-8/

 

[slodat]

Thanks guys! I feel like a bit of a *******.

This is what confused the issue:



The stamped “oil lead screw”. I thought it was the larger square bolt. Removed the smaller set screw and squirted some way oil and it went straight on the lead screw. Tightened the square a bit more and the carriage tightened down.

Thank you!

 

[slodat]

Dug through my stash and found a square wrench that fits perfectly. It lives there now.

 

[ez-duzit]

Good that you even had the right wrench.

I always lock the carriage when parting off.

 

[vpd66]

Thanks guys! I feel like a bit of a *******.

This is what confused the issue:



The stamped “oil lead screw”. I thought it was the larger square bolt. Removed the smaller set screw and squirted some way oil and it went straight on the lead screw. Tightened the square a bit more and the carriage tightened down.

Thank you!

Anyone know if there is an adjustment to the carriage lock??? On my Pacemaker I can tighten that square nut and it doesn't lock the carriage.

 

[Monza Harry]

VPD66, They do wear, you may need to "clear" the area where the bolt is pulling it up tight but not putting enough squeeze where it is needed. Clearance with an endmill/fly-cutter or grinder as required/available.

SLODAT, I wouldn't feel to bad about not seeing the forest for the trees, I have worked with "professionals" [in quotes ] with 10+ years that didn't even know that lathes had them. Harry

 

[Plastikosmd]

Love pacemakers
I was only able to locate monarchs or my big rivett when putting shop together.
Now no more room!

As far as lifting I use this:

 

[rmack898]

Does anyone with a 14" pacemaker have a steady rest?

 

[slodat]

I wish I had one!