PEX for compressed airlines! Yes? No?

[sberry]

That picture isn't complete and not very good for home use. The drip leg should be between hydrants like in a loop system, here its just a dead end pipe and no flow to push any water down to it.
Very poor for home shop.
I kind of agree about the nature of this thread, asking a question then debating the responses like you knew the answers before hand. Asking a novice question and then becoming an expert before the end of the thread.

 

[sberry]

Did you realize you are promoting a pex product as a better deal than a pex product?

I did one PE/AL/PE oxygen install about 10 years ago. Great product.

It does cost more. My system needs about 300 ft total with 12 drops. PEX costs $250. Rapid Air cost $600. Thats not including fittings around the filters and compressors. PEX $2 ea. Rapid Air $14 ea. Its quite a few fittings so the totals distance each other rapidly.

Where are you putting this? I had more drops designed in to my first system in this building, when I re did it have only 1/2 as many and actually could use a couple less without too much trouble. I have only a bit over 300 ft in 80x80 and 4 regs, could do it with 3. and 3 reels. I have a couple additional hydrants and fixed whips to give overlapping coverage and keep a little more off the floor.
The design phase often is different than the real usage points. We design in way more than we use. I have made these mistakes, more than once and now tend to try to get the basic right and leave a bit of wiggle room for add on if needed or to make a change which is usually more likely.
My sandblast hydrant was that way. It worked but the locations had changed, never did use it exactly as it was planned and finally had it one day and tore out one hydrant and moved it about 20 ft which let me use a 25 ft hose vs 50 and didn't have to thread it to the pot.

 

[Lelandwelds]

So OP, what was the purpose of this thread? Seems you already had your mind made up.

Leland, you sound like you've turned contrary.

Sorry. It is the holidays so the wife and I are fighting like we do every single year without fail. She knows my buttons. "When it rains everybody gets wet." I'll take a break and do better here.

I kind of agree about the nature of this thread, asking a question then debating the responses like you knew the answers before hand. Asking a novice question and then becoming an expert before the end of the thread.

That's a holdover from a former employer. I had to attend meetings about 15 hours each week. Each little fiefdom had a bully and a majority of sheeple who often wanted something selfserving and bad for the company. It was often beneficial to start with something innocuous or everyone already aggreed with to get a real discussion or make a point.

I really am interested in others experiences and ideas. Hell, I already know what I think.

 

[Lelandwelds]

Where are you putting this? I had more drops designed in to my first system in this building, when I re did it have only 1/2 as many and actually could use a couple less without too much trouble. I have only a bit over 300 ft in 80x80 and 4 regs, could do it with 3. and 3 reels. I have a couple additional hydrants and fixed whips to give overlapping coverage and keep a little more off the floor.
The design phase often is different than the real usage points. We design in way more than we use. I have made these mistakes, more than once and now tend to try to get the basic right and leave a bit of wiggle room for add on if needed or to make a change which is usually more likely.
My sandblast hydrant was that way. It worked but the locations had changed, never did use it exactly as it was planned and finally had it one day and tore out one hydrant and moved it about 20 ft which let me use a 25 ft hose vs 50 and didn't have to thread it to the pot.

Of all that I have read, this is your best post. There is a lot of truth and insight there.

My current garage/shop candidate has three rooms. Its easier to make a best guess and install it up front. (Plus, I hate wasted steps.) I have some drops that would be unnecessary if the walls weren't there. I have the airhogs grouped together on their own little tee and dry receiver but have normal pressure avaiable there too. I like higher quality but fewer regulators out of easy reach.

Short story:
I had a customer who made turn of the century (1900) carbonated sodas. They repeatedly called in a panic because kids were explosively vomiting. Each time I found the co2 pressure set at 90 PSI. I could not figure out why my fixes wouldnt work.

As I talked to the extremely pissed off owner , I noticed an employee talking on a phone mounted nearby. He was calling his girlfriend and idly spinning the pressure adjustment on the reg. Problem found!

I try to think of everything.

Your place is different because it is all one room and you make your living in it. Mine is a toy. My shop candidate is the first photo. Center room looks more like the center pic. My house is the third picture.

 

[slodat]

The 3/4" MaxLine kits are the way to go!

 

[Lelandwelds]

The 3/4" MaxLine kits are the way to go!

If you're talking about the straight aluminum pipe system, that one would be $1200 to pipe my garage without the fittings around the compressor, filters, and bypass. Each of those fittings cost $20 or more. There's a bunch.

Makes copper seem cheap by comparison ( unless pyrophobio is a problem).


If your talking about the pe/al/ pe stuff. I am a fan but the slab heating stuff is cheaper. Plain PEX should do the job.

 

[Trey T]

Did you realize you are promoting a pex product as a better deal than a pex product?

I did one PE/AL/PE oxygen install about 10 years ago. Great product.

It does cost more. My system needs about 300 ft total with 12 drops. PEX costs $250. Rapid Air cost $600. Thats not including fittings around the filters and compressors. PEX $2 ea. Rapid Air $14 ea. Its quite a few fittings so the totals distance each other rapidly.

I'm promoting nylon and HDPE tubings, not PEX.

Do you have a PEX system for compressed air?

 

[sberry]

The reg doesn't need to be in the same room in all cases, punch a holevthruva wall for another drop on the other side. I have this on my storage building and it's one of the only that I actually have a hydrant thru a quick connect. All other places have fixed whip hoses or reels.
I have a reg feeds a real and plasma, another reg has 4 drops from it and covers a whole side of the building pluss whips at the hoist.

 

[moparfreak]

I'm promoting nylon and HDPE tubings, not PEX.

Do you have a PEX system for compressed air?

PEX is in fact HDPE with crosslinking to obtain the properties of a thermoset. Thermosets are stronger and better under high temps and have better dimensional stability.

HDPE is a fantastic material to use for pressure vessels. In the engine world where I work, we've used them for fuel tanks for decades, and those always need to be evaluated at very high **air** pressures to verify leak-free, since this is one of the highest liability parts if it's not designed or manufactured or spec'd right. My experience in comparing PE tanks to PA tanks is the HDPEs are a tougher material that can usually hold a higher pressure.

Just like PA tubing, and straight PE tubing, PEX is also well suited to this application. All 3 of these materials have the advantage also that if something does fail in the tubing, it's a ductile failure and doesn't spray shards at anyone, just makes a tear (unlike the unmentionable other plastic compound easily found at hardware stores that in industry has never been tested or approved to serve as a pressure vessel). So:

1) It holds pressure well
2) If it fails, it's a safe failure that can be easily repaired
3) Good price and availability
4) Easy to make a high quality joint (such as ProPEX, Oetiker or Crimp Ring style)

It checks all the boxes for me. I'm hoping to do my install coming up soon as a winter project, I'll definitely post pics of the build.

 

[pamike]

Just run PVC.... Kidding people, I am kidding, calm down...Its all going to be OK...

 

[Crazyjake8493]

I would use PEX without worries if I was plumbing my garage. Whether PEX or copper, I would avoid Sharkbites, though. They should work fine, but PEX cinch clamps or soldering copper joints would save money.

 

[dynahoe]

pex al pex from outdoor furnace supply,,,really simple install,,compression type fittings,zero leaks 4 years in

 

[Lelandwelds]

pex al pex from outdoor furnace supply,,,really simple install,,compression type fittings,zero leaks 4 years in

I would use PEX without worries if I was plumbing my garage. Whether PEX or copper, I would avoid Sharkbites, though. They should work fine, but PEX cinch clamps or soldering copper joints would save money.

PEX is in fact HDPE with crosslinking to obtain the properties of a thermoset. Thermosets are stronger and better under high temps and have better dimensional stability.

HDPE is a fantastic material to use for pressure vessels. In the engine world where I work, we've used them for fuel tanks for decades, and those always need to be evaluated at very high **air** pressures to verify leak-free, since this is one of the highest liability parts if it's not designed or manufactured or spec'd right. My experience in comparing PE tanks to PA tanks is the HDPEs are a tougher material that can usually hold a higher pressure.

Just like PA tubing, and straight PE tubing, PEX is also well suited to this application. All 3 of these materials have the advantage also that if something does fail in the tubing, it's a ductile failure and doesn't spray shards at anyone, just makes a tear (unlike the unmentionable other plastic compound easily found at hardware stores that in industry has never been tested or approved to serve as a pressure vessel). So:

1) It holds pressure well
2) If it fails, it's a safe failure that can be easily repaired
3) Good price and availability
4) Easy to make a high quality joint (such as ProPEX, Oetiker or Crimp Ring style)

It checks all the boxes for me. I'm hoping to do my install coming up soon as a winter project, I'll definitely post pics of the build.

Fantastic! I can check another box off on the old garage project.

 

[tonycastec]

So what is the best price source for Pex-Al-Pex 3/4 pipe, fittings and crimp tool?
btw ,did you know 3/4" Pex has a thicker wall than 1/2"?
3/4" Pex = 0.875"o.d. & 0.097"wall
1/2" Pex has only a 0.070" wall

 

[Lelandwelds]

So what is the best price source for Pex-Al-Pex 3/4 pipe, fittings and crimp tool?
btw ,did you know 3/4" Pex has a thicker wall than 1/2"?
3/4" Pex = 0.875"o.d. & 0.097"wall
1/2" Pex has only a 0.070" wall

http://www.supplyhouse.com/pex is pretty good. You can get the kit. https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200367525_200367525

Theres a company which sells hydronic slab heating stuff. I forget name.

Large diameter needs more wall for same pressure for any material. Besides, it is mounted on the wall. Whats the diff?

 

[finn]

Pep is rated to only 74 degrees F @ 160 psi, and I️ couldn’t hind any published oil resistance information. It also has limited uv resistance. The manufacturers recommend sleeping the pet if it is exposed to fluorescent light sources.

There are debates on air line applications going back at least ten, if not more years, yet, to date, not a single manufacturer of the product has stepped up and listed the product as suitable for use as a shop air line.

If it was a good idea, the manufacturers would be falling all over themselves to expand the market to include air lines.

Just because the farmer down the road uses it doesn’t translate to pex being a suitable air line.

Until it’s certified, I’ll use black pipe, copper, or the Maxair product.

The lack of manufacturer endorsement is a real red flag.

 

[Lelandwelds]

Pep is rated to only 74 degrees F @ 160 psi, and I️ couldn’t hind any published oil resistance information. It also has limited uv resistance. The manufacturers recommend sleeping the pet if it is exposed to fluorescent light sources.

There are debates on air line applications going back at least ten, if not more years, yet, to date, not a single manufacturer of the product has stepped up and listed the product as suitable for use as a shop air line.

If it was a good idea, the manufacturers would be falling all over themselves to expand the market to include air lines.

Just because the farmer down the road uses it doesn’t translate to pex being a suitable air line.

Until it’s certified, I’ll use black pipe, copper, or the Maxair product.

The lack of manufacturer endorsement is a real red flag.

The market for compressed air piping isnt that large but it is already being marketed for compressed air. (RapidAir) The largest users are food mfg. Thats where the testing and marketing efforts are focused. It is used for natural gas, water , and (fiber optic?). Black is the most UV stable. There's stuff out there if you search a bit. http://www.pneumaticplus.com/polyurethane-tubing-inch/

People used to say the same things about the aluminum pipe.

 

[fluid power]

Shop air piping layout.

There should be a drip leg (after the compressor) as the line makes its initial run to the highest point.

 

[ez-duzit]

There should be a drip leg (after the compressor) as the line makes its initial run to the highest point.

Yes, right at the bottom of that run I have planned a water trap with automatic drain.

 

[Lelandwelds]

There should be a drip leg (after the compressor) as the line makes its initial run to the highest point.

Yes, not the best mock up. This must be a filter supplier. Needs an initial drip leg and loop if building is big enough. Only gravity to move water to final drip leg. I prefer all filters in one spot with a bypass. Regulators at stations are not the best idea. Every single station gets turned to max setting. I like dry tanks closer to far side of shop. Air hogs might get a small surge tank ( maybe with check valve to isolate from rest of system.)

 

[Lelandwelds]

Yes, right at the bottom of that run I have planned a water trap with automatic drain.

Have you found one of the silly things that actually keeps working? I have had spotty results with autos. A bit better with normally open but I dont drain pressure daily. Rebuilds kits always get a blank look or long wait.

 

[ez-duzit]

Got two of these from Pneumatics Plus; one for the compressor leg and one for the final drain leg.

 

[Lelandwelds]

Got two of these from Pneumatics Plus; one for the compressor leg and one for the final drain leg.

Float? Normally open? How long can you go before rebuilding the darn things?

 

[finn]

The market for compressed air piping isnt that large but it is already being marketed for compressed air. (RapidAir) The largest users are food mfg. Thats where the testing and marketing efforts are focused. It is used for natural gas, water , and (fiber optic?). Black is the most UV stable.

Those applications aren’t water pipe from a box store repurposed for home built compressed air runs. They all have a manufacturer standing behind the product to assume liability.

Again, if it was as simple as you say, there’s no reason the manufacturers would hesitate to add a compressed air rating to the specification sheet.

Something doesn’t add up here.

 

[ez-duzit]

PneumaticPlus SAD402-N04D-MEP. Float, normally closed. How would I know how long before a rebuild? I clearly stated that I picked them up for my planned system, virtually all the components for which I have now on hand.

I would not be overly concerned about the cost of rebuild kits for such simple equipment that protects your much more expensive air tools and equipment.

 

[Lelandwelds]

Have you found one of the silly things that actually keeps working? I have had spotty results with autos. A bit better with normally open but I dont drain pressure daily. Rebuilds kits always get a blank look or long wait.

PneumaticPlus SAD402-N04D-MEP. Float, normally closed. How would I know how long before a rebuild? I clearly stated that I picked them up for my planned system, virtually all the components for which I have now on hand.

I would not be overly concerned about the cost of rebuild kits for such simple equipment that protects your much more expensive air tools and equipment.

Sorry, didnt mean to say you had an ugly baby. I have found the things to gunk up and either never open or constantly ( or worse, intermittently ) leak. Nobody looks at the things because they are "automatic ". Rebuild kits get lost. Backorders are long. Parker, SMC, or Ingersol are all the same. I thought you knew something better.

I must have missed that "clearly stated" part. Its not the "cost of rebuild kits". Its the "am I ever gonna be done with this ****" so I can forget it and move on.

I am on the road to something manually operated only. If you knew my love of the detailed and complicated, that would shock you.

 

[ez-duzit]

You can install a manually operated drain valve.

 

[Lelandwelds]

I am on the road to something manually operated only. If you knew my love of the detailed and complicated, that would shock you.

You can install a manually operated drain valve.

I have ball valves scattered everywhere on former installs. Dumb but reliable.

My current great idea is a drip leg below the valved drip leg ( drip leg with a valve in the middle). Have either a second valve on the end or a drilled cap. Leave first valve open. Water runs to bottom. To drain, close top valve. Open bottom valve and blow into drain manifold for collection in one place.

 

[ez-duzit]

You certainly do not need 2 valves to drain a single leg.

 

[Lelandwelds]

I have ball valves scattered everywhere on former installs. Dumb but reliable.

My current great idea is a drip leg below the valved drip leg ( drip leg with a valve in the middle). Have either a second valve on the end or a drilled cap. Leave first valve open. Water runs to bottom. To drain, close top valve. Open bottom valve and blow into drain manifold for collection in one place.

You certainly do not need 2 valves to drain a single leg.

Yes, that is right.

What do you think I was trying to accomplish that is leading me to want to try limiting the the volume or velocity of air dumping into a common collection manifold?




Please think about it. You may have a better solution to the empty collection jug being blown over.

 

[ez-duzit]

Elementary. Use a heavier container or bond a weight to the bottom of the container.

 

[Lelandwelds]

I dont take side jobs like that anymore. But, when I did, I would find the 5 gal bucket gone and a milk jug or Styrofoam cup in its place. I am not going to buy new Homer buckets. I cant enforce a " dont touch my bucket policy ". My contact doesnt want stuff blown on wall and floor all over shop.

When I put mine in, I want to not repeat stuff I wasnt happy with.

 

[sberry]

I have a common manifold from used copper tubing connected to a hose thru the wall. crack a valve once in a while.

 

[tonycastec]

Leland kindly gave a good source for black tubing .
Here is another source for U.V. resistant tubing and 3/4"
https://cdn.automationdirect.com/static/specs/nitratubingpoly.pdf
It also gives the working pressures so you can see how this varies with diameter and wall.

 

[Lelandwelds]

I have a common manifold from used copper tubing connected to a hose thru the wall. crack a valve once in a while.

Duh! Poke a hole in the wall! Basic and obvious sometimes is not. Wouldnt have worked for the paying neat freak. I can live with it. Thanks! F*** that manifold BS. Dump everywhere but keep epoxy clean.

I have seen 100lb propane as surge tanks but upside down. They dont have a bottom drain or fusible plug. What are you showing me?