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photo cell

mikeburris

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I am wanting to add a photo cell/motion detector to my shop lighting and the part I got at ace hardware says not for florescent lights. They don't really know why there and don't have an alternative either. They are supposed to be investigating that for me. In the mean time I would like to hear from the experts here. I have updated with t8 bulbs and these ballasts:

Can anyone tell me if they would work anyway since they are updated to t8 or perhaps a different sensor?
 
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malibu101

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I don't know why a photocell/motion would not work?? It's just a glorified switch. A contact opens or closes. As long as the contact is rated equal to or higher than the load you're applying I think you should be OK.

On the ballast- That is an instant start ballast. As son as power is applied to the ballast it strikes the tubes hard and fast so the come on right away.
If you turn the lights on and off regularly instant start ballasts will kill the tubes faster than a programmed rapid start ballast. the tradeoff is the PRS ballast turns the lights on a bit slower but prolongs the life of the tubes since they're not being "hit" so hard.
Usually this is only a case when there are many on/off cycles per day.

EDIT- the above 2 responses came in while I was typing. They are correct. I take back my first paragraph.
 
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mikeburris

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I am headed to x10.com to look around. Perhaps I should rephrase, can anyone tell me where/ what sensor to get to operate these lights?
 

Stuart in MN

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Without knowing what product you bought at the store it's impossible to say. Are you looking for a motion sensor or a photocell? They're two different things - I assume since this is inside the garage what you want is an occupancy sensor that turns on the lights when you walk in and turns them off after you leave; there are any number of them available that work with fluorescent lights.

One brand I like is Wattstopper: http://www.wattstopper.com/products/occupancy-vacancy-sensors.aspx#.UhKvERygkpI but you can get them from Leviton, Lutron, Cooper, Smarthome among other manufacturers.
 

wyliesdiesels

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The motion detector you looked at must require some small amount of electricity to pass through the bulb to operate correctly. That will work with incandescent but not fluorescent bulbs.

Here's a better answer.....
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_don't_fluorescent_bulbs_work_in_motion_sensor


*

I know youre just trying to help and dont get me wrong but that wiki answer is horrible! It contradicts itself and then goes on to talk about starting bulbs in cold weather! :willy_nil :lol_hitti
 

pattenp

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Yeah, I should have said "here's another answer" instead of a "better answer". I got a little too quick and lazy on that post.

I know youre just trying to help and dont get me wrong but that wiki answer is horrible! It contradicts itself and then goes on to talk about starting bulbs in cold weather! :willy_nil :lol_hitti
 

pattenp

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mikeburris

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I know that, that is why I am here! I am trying to find one that is compatible with fluorescent lights. So far I have people telling me I cant use them, I found that out when I opened the box to install, but I would like to find some I can use and am having no luck so I came here. I really don't need to hear I can't use something again, I need something I CAN use.

If I can't find something I am going to just try them and see what happens, but that is definitely NOT what I want to do.
 
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mikeburris

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I have been searching for hours and not having success, so I hoped someone here would have an answer. I do appreciate the responses regardless.
 
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mikeburris

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I was wondering about a filament bulb also, and read something about it. What I read said it would depend if it was in series or not and I didn't understand. Anyone done that as a pilot?
 

pattenp

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Excuse me... but your post looked as if you were linking to a sensor you thought you could use. Sorry but I can't help you with that attitude.

I know that, that is why I am here! I am trying to find one that is compatible with fluorescent lights. So far I have people telling me I cant use them, I found that out when I opened the box to install, but I would like to find some I can use and am having no luck so I came here. I really don't need to hear I can't use something again, I need something I CAN use.

If I can't find something I am going to just try them and see what happens, but that is definitely NOT what I want to do.
 

Stuart in MN

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How about using a separate photocell and a separate occupancy sensor, wired in series?

edit: I was thinking about this some more - if you really want a photocell in the control circuit, it will need to be separate from the occupancy sensor and mounted outside the garage. If it's inside, it will interact with the lights in the room; as soon as the lights come on, the photocell will 'see' them shut them off, and the cycle will repeat. You'll get a neat strobe light effect. :)
 
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ddawg16

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You will need a motion sensor that uses a hot and neutral.

The one you have is designed to be wired in series with the light....the small amount of current that can flow through the bulb powers it.

Do a search on home automation.

As a side note....I came across a really cool motion sensing light....it has a camera built into it and dumps the video to an SD memory card. I'll see if I can find it.
 

ddawg16

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found it....

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005NCP0KU/?tag=atomicindus08-20

31hgOvtY13L.jpg
 

2ManyProjects

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Smarthome is x10.

No, they aren't. Two entirely different companies. While the former sells a handful of X10 products, their main business is the manufacture and sale of a very different (and vastly superior) system known as "Insteon", along with sales of various other third-party products.

I thought they had upgraded recently.

Upgraded what?


I am headed to x10.com to look around.

Before you do, be aware that X10, Inc., is a HORRIBLE company. Quite beyond the many long-standing issues related to the products themselves (most of which are rooted in their "penny-wise and pound-foolish" approach to what laughably passes for "engineering"), they are hard-core spammers. I would strongly urge you to look elsewhere, such as the aforementioned SmartHome.com


Perhaps I should rephrase, can anyone tell me where/ what sensor to get to operate these lights?

To do this right will require more than one device. At the very least, you'll need at least one sensor to detect when the load should be switched on or off, and a second device to actually do that load-switching.

For the former, I suspect this will be pretty close to what you want:

http://www.smarthome.com/2842-222/INSTEON-Wireless-Motion-Sensor/p.aspx
2842-222big.jpg


But it might be tricky to find just the right mounting location where it both properly detects you walking into the area, AND is adequately exposed to the sky (or at least the outside, such as through a window) so that the so-called "night-only mode" works as you will desire. If that proves to be TOO tricky, then you'll need to split the motion-sensing and light-sensing duties between two individual devices.

For the load-switching chores, you have several possible choices, depending in part on how your lights are currently wired/switched. Here are a few possibilities:

http://www.smarthome.com/2466SW/Tog...ontrol-On-Off-Switch-Non-Dimming-White/p.aspx
2466swbig.jpg


http://www.smarthome.com/2477S/Swit...-Remote-Control-Switch-Dual-Band-White/p.aspx
2477sbig.jpg


http://www.smarthome.com/2487S/Keyp...pad-with-On-Off-Switch-Dual-Band-White/p.aspx
2487sbig.jpg


http://www.smarthome.com/2473SWH/Ou...ontrol-On-Off-Outlet-Non-Dimming-White/p.aspx
2473swhbig.jpg


http://www.smarthome.com/2475S2/INSTEON-In-LineLinc-On-Off-Module-Non-dimming-w-Sense/p.aspx
2475s2big.jpg


 

1/2 Cup

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I switch my fluorescent lights with a photo cell, I have installed a relay in the light fitting which is switched via the photo cell then the relay contacts switches the lighting load. simple and effective!
 
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mikeburris

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pattenp....I apologize for the attitude. Post one specifically stated that I knew they were not to be used with, therefore I was getting frustrated. The linking was in response to Stuart in Mn asking about the item I referred to via post 7.
 

1/2 Cup

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I think we tried that here. I might have been using the wrong relay and mine did not have a voltage/current leak across it, so I got the same results.

You might need to show/name that relay. I have lights under my eaves [18" eaves, I have fourfoot fl's [can't consistantly spell fluorescent] under them, 20 feet across the front of the garage [a semi-cure for the 'hey, my garage door blocks all the light when it's up] and 20 feet along the side. I can't get it to work on x-10 or a relay and it's a real trudge to go turn them off when you're back in the house and forgot.

Mine is actually on a 2 way switch set up, I feel a little bit out of my depth in terms of your electrical speak and codes in the States. I can sketch a circuit diagram for you and post in the next day or so as I am just about to head off to work, its 6.30 am Wednesday here at the moment
 
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mikeburris

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2manyprojects...that is exactly the kind of response I was looking for, thank you! I had looked at the photo sensor and was wondering if I needed two different devices, but am uneducated. thanks again. I would have tried to put them both inside :), what a simple concept I was over looking.
 
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mikeburris

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Mine is actually on a 2 way switch set up, I feel a little bit out of my depth in terms of your electrical speak and codes in the States. I can sketch a circuit diagram for you and post in the next day or so as I am just about to head off to work, its 6.30 am Wednesday here at the moment


That would be much appreciated and thank you. I will be looking for that.
 
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mikeburris

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Stuart in MN..I agree with your statement about the strobe light effect, but can't understand how this part I bought to start with is capable of both? wouldn't it do the strobe thing too? I still have it and am going to do some reading the instructions to see if I can figure that aspect out.
 

ddawg16

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The reason the relay did not work is because it had too high of a resistance. It maybe pulls about 1/4w? Your typical bulb is 60w or better?

That 1/4w relay is going to allow about .002 amps through.....hardly enough to power up a switching ckt....the bulb? 60W is about .5 amps.

You need to find a module that is designed to be connected using a neutral.

Remember....a majority of these devices are designed to be shoehorned into existing light fixtures which typically do not have a neutral.

Now you see why the NEC is requiring neutrals in your switch boxes.
 
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mikeburris

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It looks like the device I bought previously, states " if lights flash, light from the lamps may be turning the light control on and off, reposition lights".. right! This was a failure waiting to happen. Obviously two devices are going to be required, where the photo cell is seeing outside and the motion sensor is inside.
 

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2ManyProjects

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x10 seems to be out of business as of late July.

I had not heard that; but if so, good riddance. FWIW, any attempt to bring up "www.x10.com" in a web browser gets redirected to "www.x10pro-usa.com". I'm not sure, but that MAY be the same people, under a new/different identity (the web site is eerily similar in terms of hype & hucksterism); but it's impossible to tell for sure, in part because they're hiding behind an anonymous domain registration (which is itself a huge red flag, IMCO).

All of my x10 stuff works fine,

Consider yourself lucky -- for now.

and smarthome technology is compatable with what i told you.

If by "smarthome technology" you are referring to Insteon, then yes, there is SOME cross-compatibility. And that feature can come in handy for transitioning from X10 to Insteon, without having to immediately replace ALL your existing gear. But unless you already have a significant investment in X10 gear, you'd be much better off just going with a straight Insteon system from the get go.


2manyprojects...that is exactly the kind of response I was looking for, thank you!

You're welcome.

I had looked at the photo sensor and was wondering if I needed two different devices, but am uneducated. thanks again. I would have tried to put them both inside :), what a simple concept I was over looking.

Well, if I understand your application correctly, the sensor SHOULD be inside, so it can sense when you walk into that area. It IS the garage interior lights you want to control, right? The trick is going to be locating it so that it can adequately sense daylight. The sensor IS somewhat adjustable in this respect; but don't expect miracles.

If you do have to go to two separate sensors, things get disproportionately more complex, as now you will need a THIRD (relatively sophisticated) device capable of doing "If-Then-Else" logic to make the decisions. Given that, I would strongly suggest that you start with just the one sensor and a suitable load controller (such as the ones I cited earlier), then spend some time getting the installation just right. Then, only if you absolutely can't live with the results, consider going the separate sensors route.

 

2ManyProjects

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I' m way out on a limbe here and I didn't wire the damn thing in becasue I hate three way circuits and slaves and such but;

If I recall correctly, the insteon/x10 slave for a three way, that really needs wired as the master is setup with that neutral in it. It can't be that simple becasue x-10 was fighting fl lights for years...could it?

The X10 and Insteon systems are two ENTIRELY different things. Please stop conflating the two; you're just sowing more confusion.

The old X10 wall switch (WS467) did not connect to or use the neutral, even if one was present in the box. It derived power to operate its internal circuitry through a clever, but ultimately unreliable, rectification scheme. This (along with the cheap-*** construction) is the primary reason they were always so damn flaky. The "slave" switch included in the WS4777 "3-Way Kit" was a simple momentary-contact SPST switch, which, when tied into the "real" switch via the traveller wires, duplicated the function of the WS467's main button.

By comparison, the Insteon wall-switch dimmers (such as the model 2477D http://www.smarthome.com/2477D/SwitchLinc-INSTEON-Remote-Control-Dimmer-Dual-Band-White/p.aspx) & etc. DO use (and require) a Neutral connection:

2476dside3big.jpg


Any "slave" switches used to make "3-way" circuits aren't really "switches" at all, in the conventional sense of that term; nor do they need connect (even indirectly) to the load. They are used only to place commands on the power line, which the "real" switch then "hears" and acts upon. Hence, they are part of that "circuit" only in a virtual sense, through software addressing. See the "Box 2" diagram below:

2477dside4big.jpg



It looks like the device I bought previously, states " if lights flash, light from the lamps may be turning the light control on and off, reposition lights".. right! This was a failure waiting to happen. Obviously two devices are going to be required, where the photo cell is seeing outside and the motion sensor is inside.

Perhaps with that device. But the Insteon sensor I pointed you at should not be subject to this problem. It has built-in timers & logic to prevent this problem. If the "night-only" mode is active, it will not send an "ON" command if the ambient light is above the set point; but (at least AFAIK) it won't force an "OFF" command.

That said, I can imagine one possible failure mode: It MAY fail to continue issuing "ON" commands (and stop resetting its time-out value each time) in response to ongoing motion in the area, once it senses a too-high light level. If so, then once it times out from the initial turn-on, the lights would go off, and you'd need to re-trigger the sensor (via more motion, now in the dark) to get them to go back on. HOWEVER, I consider this a very large stretch. First, as I said, the unit contains at least some logic aimed at preventing this. Second, both the "Dawn/Dusk" point and the time-out values are VERY adjustable; so a workable combination of settings should be obtainable in most situations. Finally, you can also put it in "ON-Only" mode, so it will NEVER time out; but of course you'd then need to turn the lights off with a press of the wall switch when you're done for the night. Bottom Line: Don't worry about it. You might need to finesse the mounting location of the sensor to get just the right combination of daylight-sensitivity and motion-sensitivity; but I strongly suspect it WILL work well once that is done.

 
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mikeburris

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2manyprojects...I am also looking at the Insteon items. If i am wanting to do more than one room I am guessing that would be a better choice as they are remote operating and can operate more than one switch if I am reading right. The cooper light switch would have to be placed in each room.
 
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mikeburris

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeburris View Post
2manyprojects...that is exactly the kind of response I was looking for, thank you!
You're welcome.

Quote:
I had looked at the photo sensor and was wondering if I needed two different devices, but am uneducated. thanks again. I would have tried to put them both inside , what a simple concept I was over looking.
Well, if I understand your application correctly, the sensor SHOULD be inside, so it can sense when you walk into that area. It IS the garage interior lights you want to control, right? The trick is going to be locating it so that it can adequately sense daylight. The sensor IS somewhat adjustable in this respect; but don't expect miracles.

Yes it is the garage interior lights I want to control.
 

2ManyProjects

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I have come across this item..http://www.smarthome.com/21685WH/Co...3-Way-Switch-with-Nightlight-LED-White/p.aspx and it looks like it would do what I am after.

In theory, yes. The main potential issues are lack of location flexibility for the sensor, and the inability to expand the system if/when desired.

2manyprojects...I am also looking at the Insteon items. If i am wanting to do more than one room I am guessing that would be a better choice as they are remote operating and can operate more than one switch if I am reading right. The cooper light switch would have to be placed in each room.

You are correct. Beyond that, the Cooper switches do not "talk to" each other, save for a possible hard-wired "3-Way" application re: a single load.

If you are absolutely certain that you will never want any other forms of "home automation", AND if the sensor works well from the wall switch location, the Cooper will make for the simpler install. But you would be significantly limiting your future options. Personally, I like keeping my options open; hence, I would go the Insteon route in a heartbeat. But then, I'm also something of a gadget geek.

 

2ManyProjects

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So i checked my x10 units to see of they are onsteons. They are not what you would expect. They are old ibm units from 1995ish.

The "IBM Home Director" stuff was re-branded X10, item for item. I think it was actually made by a subcontractor under license, rather than by X10 themselves (which may explain the marginally better life expectancy they seemed to exhibit). I still have a couple of their plug-in lamp modules which are, if anything, even older (early '90s, IIRC); I use them for temporary lighting loads during the Christmas season.

Still running the lights on the gazebo and the pool lights.

Occasionally, you get lucky. But the fact remains that the overall failure rate of the X10 stuff is downright abysmal.

 
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mikeburris

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I decided to give the light switch a try. Ace is getting me one and said if I didn't like it I could bring it back, so seems like a no brainer. I think the insteon items may be in my future, but money is gonna run out on my new shop and I better make financial choices for today rather than the future. Thanks to all for the help and ideas.
 
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