Please School Me on Standby Generators

[slickgt1]

Ok so we got torn the Hell up by Sandy in NYC. Never seen **** like this, ever. This city was definitely not ready to take 30' storm surge, and 90mph winds. We have entire neighborhoods that the cars floated to other places. I have never seen trees come out with parts of buildings still attached to the roots. Power lines are laying all over the place. And obviously we have no power. The Ocean decided to come to my parents house via the sewer system, blowing out the caps in the traps for an entire neighborhood.

Not going to go into super detail, but again, I have never seen **** like this. My house seems to have survived. I still need to check the roof. My main concern is I have no power, so no boiler, so no heat, and no hot water. ConED is telling us it could take a week.

I want to buy a Standby Generator. I think I want a natural gas one, as that is the only thing that seems to still function. I also want it to be auto switch. I figure about 17k watts will run my entire house, most everything I can possibly want to run.

I don't know where to start looking for a brand, and something I should be avoiding. Please help me out.

Thanks in advance.

 

[p_mori7]

Generac 17KW LNG (or Propane) at Costco for $3600 here in Montreal. Transfer switch / panel included. Installation excluded.

I doubt you could get one installed at this point in time. You can get a 9000W portable gas powered one for about $800 if I remember correctly. You could start running that right away with some extension cords.

 

[theoldwizard1]

If you are concerned about possible flooding in the future, you need to mount it on a platform 4-6' maybe 10' in the air.

You need to CAREFULLY add up the consumption of your most important electric appliances. With generators bigger is not necessarily better. Bigger does mean that you will consume more gas.

If your main concern is the boiler, refrigerator (or 2 or 3), stove (gas, not electric), microwave, coffee pot, TV lights, you are definitely under 10KW.

Generac or Briggs and Straton have most of the home market.

 

[Speedy Petey]

I figure about 17k watts will run my entire house, most everything I can possibly want to run.

WHY do you need something this big? WHY do you need to run everything you could possibly want??? What ever happened to covering the basics with a few extras?
Anyway, I honestly hope you are not expecting this to get done before your power comes back on. Even if you could find an electrician I HIGHLY doubt you'll find a genset before then.

Look to spend around $6000-$8000 installed in the NYC area.

 

[Shocker]

I have to agree with Speedy Petey. Trying to run everything you want is not practical.

Our home experiences between 2-4 power outages per year. Most are a day or less. Some are longer. Last winter we had an outage for 5 days.

My generator is a 6000w portable Coleman generator. Nothing fancy. It has the Subaru Robin engine and has worked well. We run a few lights here and there, the boiler, the fridge, freezer and a sewage pump on it.

Ran it for 5 days straight with the only issue being freezing of the carb. I put a small hair dryer zip-tied to the frame and running on low to keep it defrosted.

 

[thammel]

I installed an 8kw winco that is powered by propane. It is sufficient for most items in my 3000+ ft^2 house. Ok, so the electric dryer, electric oven and heat pumps won't run. But my gas furnace, well, pump, microwave, all the refrigerators and freezers and plenty of lights do!

I put it in myself for about 3k$ about 7 years ago. A godsend. We have had no utility power now for over a day. With the propane we have heat, water, hot water, and everything one needs in life.

Tom

 

[Ksullivan]

There are ton's of generac's in the syracuse area I see them all over I am pretty sure they have automatic on switch's available. Good luck with the cleanup down there and most importantly stay safe.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The problem with NG in an extended power outage is that there is electrical infrastructure on NG networks that require electricity to function. The gas may flow for awhile but the rectifiers and monitoring equipment will not be functioning and the NG co. may shut it off! I have heard of this happening before.

Also, how do plan on doing the plumbing? Do u know how to plumb NG lines and is your NG meter and pipes rated for the increased flow needed for the generator? Do u have a pipe threader and all the fittings(elbows, tees, etc.) needed to install it. Surely, all the hardware stores are closed. After putting in the plumbing, u HAVE TO pressure test the pipes for leaks. And usually, this is done over a few days. Just imagine what could happen if u have an NG leak near a hot generator! O_O Installing a generator likes this requires knowing electrical AND plumbing! I've worked for plumbers before and have installed many gas lines. They are definitely NOT a DIYer project!

Just get a gas generator like everyone else suggested. Trust me- it will be a lot easier! And u don't need such a big unit either!

 

[bjcouche]

I highly recommend if you are super serious about having uninterrupted power, especially if needed for medical equipment, that you do NOT get a NATURAL GAS powered backup generator. The folks who HAD a natural gas generator and suffered through the midwest blackout a few years ago found out quickly why. The natural gas is pumped through pipelines to your house. It's pumped (compressed) using ELECTRIC PUMPS, thus after a day of widespread power outages, the pressure drops and thus no more natural gas for your heat or generator.
Oh, yeah, for those in the city with city water, (who revel at having water when the power goes out for 2 hours) guess how the water gets to your house? It's pumped ELECTRICALLY into a water tower and gravity fed to your house. A day or 2 after power is out you won't have water because the tower is empty.

I live in a very rural Ohio area where property is measured in tens of acres. When it does go out due to a large storm though it's usually out for a while, like a day or more because my area is sparsely populated and the power companies rightly fix areas that are highly populated first to get more people power quicker.
I have a manual transfer switch with the necessities mentioned by other posters on a separate sub panel, fed by the transfer switch. The generator side of the switch is wired to an outlet on the side of the house by the garage. When the power's out I simply wheel the portable generator out of the garage, plug it in, start it up and then throw the transfer switch. I can also shut it down and wheel it in the garage at night as well.
I went with a larger than normal Generac at 8000 / 12,000W peak. I would recommend smaller but I needed the surge current because my well is 350'+ deep and the well pump has a large surge current. I have water, hot water, heat, fridge, freezer, microwave, and a few lights (the heat and hot water is propane but has electric ignitors and fans).

To me, if you already have a propane tank on your property, I would get a propane generator if installing a fixed generator. Otherwise I like a gas generator because I always have a couple of emergency sources of fuel parked in the garage called cars.
Also, if you have a portable unit, If you are lucky enough to have power, you can lend it to your elderly relatives, family, etc. who don't have power.

Brian

 

[Spire]

I saw at Home Depot yesterday that Generac is selling a propane bottle fed portable generator.

Its only 3250 watts, but when even when the gas pumps at the station wont pump, and the Nat Gas is out, a few BBQ bottles of propane can keep you going for a good amount of time.

Even more impressive if you have a larger tank on site.

I installed a 12Kw Generac whole home with auto transfer this last summer. I figure the house is heated with a ng boiler, if ng goes down, I'm double screwed anyway so it would be time to bail.

 

[HOTFR8]

A Stand By Generator tehnically speaking is what you find in most Hospitals or similar and it will start and generate power whilst the mains power has failed. They automatically start and run whilst the mains power is off. That is they cut in and overide outside supply until such time that the outside power supply system is repaired.

For what you need I would suggest as per the others a back up power supply that will run essentials. May I also suggest you have something that can stand alone and not require connection to something like the propane mains. A Gas (Petrol) or Diesel Gen Set would run all the basics.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I saw at Home Depot yesterday that Generac is selling a propane bottle fed portable generator.

Its only 3250 watts, but when even when the gas pumps at the station wont pump, and the Nat Gas is out, a few BBQ bottles of propane can keep you going for a good amount of time.

Even more impressive if you have a larger tank on site.

I installed a 12Kw Generac whole home with auto transfer this last summer. I figure the house is heated with a ng boiler, if ng goes down, I'm double screwed anyway so it would be time to bail.

A 3250w generator would BARELY power a microwave and a space heater!

 

[Burtonrider10022]

A 3250w generator would BARELY power a microwave and a space heater!

How so? An average microwave is ~800 watts, with almost no surge, and a space heater will vary, but running a space heater on a generator isn't a good plan anyways. If you buy a 3250 LP generator, just buy a $100-$200 30-50,000 BTU INDOOR RATED LP space heater.

Either way, a 3250 could easily run a refrigerator (600-800 watts/ X3 or 4 for surge), a sump pump (750-1k watts/ X2 for surge), and a few lights. If he has an NG HVAC system he can power the thermostat and fan motor from the genny as well (500-600 watts, roughly 1k for surge). But wait, you're adding that up saying "that's over 5kW surge!" And you're right! But I'd hope the OP is smart enough to figure out that A. the pumps "shouldn't" all come on at the same time, making surge less important, and B. He can run the items 1 or two at a time and unplug the third! Fridge on for an hour, gets nice and cold, then heat on for an hour to warm the house, all the while the sump pump in the background is humming away pumping out all of the rain water.

 

[Speedy Petey]

A Stand By Generator tehnically speaking is what you find in most Hospitals or similar and it will start and generate power whilst the mains power has failed. They automatically start and run whilst the mains power is off. That is they cut in and overide outside supply until such time that the outside power supply system is repaired.

That is exactly what the OP is asking about. They're not just for hospitals any more.

 

[matt151617]

Here's the way I think of it. Power outages are pretty uncommon in NY. $5k is a ton of money (plus the maintence required) for something you won't use that often.

I went with a 3500 watt portable generator, for $350. Then a interlock, outlet, cord, etc cost about another $250. I can run a microwave, sump pump, lights, heat, etc.

OP, I know you guys really got hammered down there and you're probably pretty miserable. But give it a bit after everything is back to normal before making your decision. Remember this was a very out of the ordinary storm. So don't make an impulse buy.

 

[theoldwizard1]

A 3250w generator would BARELY power a microwave and a space heater!

I have to disagree with that statement !

During the big East coast/Midwest blackout a few years back, I ran 2 refrigerators a large upright freezer, a couple of fans and some lights nor problem.

Most microwaves are 1.0-12KW and space heaters are typically about 1.5KW. Worst case, you run them one at a time.

 

[slickgt1]

Thank you all of the replies.

Ok so I guess a 17kw is overkill. The reason I was going for that, is because I forse the need to run 2 fridges, 3 pumps, Boiler (gas), and a few non necessity items. Mosty to keep the kids and CEO happy. I also want to be able to run my saws if I have to, that would include garage lights.

I am also not a standard DIYer. I work for a building maintenance company, and do renovations on my own. Yes, I can run the electric, I can deff run the gas line, I can pour the pad, and I can do all the little **** in between. I have never done this, or have any experience, but that is where you guys come in. I also won't be the one connecting to the elec panel, as I will **** myself touching anything bigger than 10ga wire. But I have an electrician and a plumber if need be. Most likely will just pay them to get it done quick and right.

I also don't see me getting this tomorrow. I drove around everywhere and got miserable looking for anything. No one has anything. I got my inlaws a gas one. NO EFFIN WAY do I want this. I am in the city, gas is way too loud. It also sticks to all hell. My installation area is an alcove between buildings. Think elevator shaft with no roof. Half of this elevator shaft is mine, half the neighbors. Oh they raped me for this 7500w one. $1500.00. So I will wait it out a bit. That is why I have time to discuss this. I just don't want to deal with this again. 60 deg F, in my house at night last night.

Right. So I guess Generac 10kw it is for now?

How much work is it to connect the transfer switch panel to the house panel. What I mean, is where does it tie in. To the city service, or to the breaker panel, with something added. I only ask is because my panel is full, double breakers and all, Thanks again all.

You guys already saved me about $2k.

 

[Alchymist]

How much work is it to connect the transfer switch panel to the house panel. What I mean, is where does it tie in. To the city service, or to the breaker panel, with something added. I only ask is because my panel is full, double breakers and all.

Easiest way is a transfer panel with additional breakers. The panel mounts next to your main panel, appropriate breaker feeds the transfer panel for normal use. Throw the transfer switch or breaker, and switches to generator power. Move the "necessary" circuits to the new panel. Something like this:

http://www.goodgenerators.net/acces...it-100-amp-utility60-amp-discount-and-coupon/

Check with your local inspector before installing - be sure whatever you choose meets local codes.

 

[VHF]

A 10KW Generac with 12-circuit ATS can be had for $2792 from Ziller Electric. I bought my 10KW from them about 3 years ago.

The ATS mounts next to your main panel, and then the circiuits you want protected are moved from your main panel over to the ATS. It includes a bunch of breakers (both 120V and 240V), but you can swap these out to different (Simens-brand) breakers that better fit your needs. (For example, I bought a 15A 240V breaker for my well pump.)

When utility power fails, the generator starts automatically and switches critical loads over the generator power. When utility power is restored, the loads are switched back, the generator goes thorugh a cool-down cycle for a about a minute, then shuts down. The generator exercises weekly for 12 minutes.

The generator requires minimum 18" clearance from a building, 3' of free space on the exahust end, and must be at least 5' from the nearest opening in the wall (windows, door, vent, etc.)

 

[Chris Mallett]

I have all electric home and no propane or natural gas available. Any ideas on what I need to operate a heat pump and hot water, maybe fueled by diesel?

 

[Speedy Petey]

I have all electric home and no propane or natural gas available. Any ideas on what I need to operate a heat pump and hot water, maybe fueled by diesel?

Propane is available anywhere they can set a bottle.

 

[HOTFR8]

That is exactly what the OP is asking about. They're not just for hospitals any more.

Like many others here I think the OP does not need a standby set up but simply a back up set up .

Standby would be a permanent set up designed to run every thing where as a back up set up can just run the basics.

 

[mitchtr25068]

I have a 15kw Briggs & Stratton with three 100-gallon propane tanks. a neighbor who is an electrician recommended Briggs & Stratton over generac. Having gone 5 days through Irene and with our local utility saying this sandy knockout won't be fixed until Sunday at 10 pm, I can tell you it is really nice to be able to run my well, heat, lights and things like the dishwasher or washing machine without having to worry about more than the propane bill. With kids, especially, some normalcy during these events is nice.

 

[olytdi]

I find the naysaying regarding NG standby to be ill-informed -- well, maybe, anyway -- I could be wrong!

We've had outages here in Western Washington (state) that have lasted 7 - 10 days and were widespread ice storm-related. Gas keeps flowing as does city water. I suspect that the compressor stations and water pumping stations have standby diesel powered gensets. If you experience a great enough disaster that NG has become unavailable, then you're likely not going to have access to gasoline or diesel either.

Then there's the problem of storing fuel, rotating fuel, stabilizing fuel just so you're ready while a NG genset needs none of those things. And, the gasoline gennies are stupid loud.

I could see where a NG unit might lose fuel supply but I think it would involve an earthquake or other significant subterrainian incident and we'd be in for bigger problems than running a genset. BTW, in the last 6.8 magnitude quake centered about 10 miles from my home, $30K in damage was done to the structure and the inside looked like a bomb went off. But the NG and water supply was fine...

 

[Speedy Petey]

Standby would be a permanent set up designed to run every thing where as a back up set up can just run the basics.

I disagree.
There are plenty of smaller (8-10kW) permanent stand by units that have 10, 12, even 16 space panels where you choose the circuits you need/want.
Transfer panels are different from transfer switches.

 

[HOTFR8]

I find the naysaying regarding NG standby to be ill-informed -- well, maybe, anyway -- I could be wrong!

We've had outages here in Western Washington (state) that have lasted 7 - 10 days and were widespread ice storm-related. Gas keeps flowing as does city water. I suspect that the compressor stations and water pumping stations have standby diesel powered gensets. If you experience a great enough disaster that NG has become unavailable, then you're likely not going to have access to gasoline or diesel either.

Then there's the problem of storing fuel, rotating fuel, stabilizing fuel just so you're ready while a NG genset needs none of those things. And, the gasoline gennies are stupid loud.

I could see where a NG unit might lose fuel supply but I think it would involve an earthquake or other significant subterrainian incident and we'd be in for bigger problems than running a genset. BTW, in the last 6.8 magnitude quake centered about 10 miles from my home, $30K in damage was done to the structure and the inside looked like a bomb went off. But the NG and water supply was fine...

Some good points in that. Regular running and checking (maintenance) of any gen set is important adding to that also making sure when needed it still runs what you need it to do as it is no good finding out when you need it something has failed, this also makes sure you have fresh fuel or regular top ups with fresh fuel. Also Fuel type as different fuels for different reasons. I went to a Diesel Gen Set simply because in a fire situation a Diesel can breathe better than a gas (NG) or petrol (gas) gen set.

 

[HOTFR8]

I disagree.
There are plenty of smaller (8-10kW) permanent stand by units that have 10, 12, even 16 space panels where you choose the circuits you need/want.
Transfer panels are different from transfer switches.

Point taken as in a Hospital some sections may be deemed non esential.

 

[bjcouche]

There's no right fuel choice for every situation.

gasoline has storage problems.
Diesel has storage problems including gelling in the winter.
Natural gas has availability problems if a widespread disaster occurs.
Propane requires a propane tank to be onsite and isn't as common to buy at your local gas station.

The advantages of propane is that you can store it for long periods of time and never have to worry about it going bad or gumming up in the engine's carb. It also doesn't smell up your garage like gas or diesel when stored. If you already have propane heat for your house, a propane generator is the best solution. If you don't have propane heat then some of the other options are more attractive.

To the Natural gas availability problem, during the midwest blackout, the city of Detroit had widespread loss of both water and NG. This because both were supplied from the power grid. A localized storm doesn't usually knock out NG and water because these utilities often have power from multiple electrical utilities for redundancy, but if it's a widespread natural disaster and both utilities are down.... Some areas have NG combustion engines that pump the exact gas that they run on. Not all areas have this capability as it's an expensive backup system.

Large critical computer data centers and hospitals (600-2000hp+ here)often have triple redundant backup systems and usually each runs on a different fuel. One generator might be NG and would most likely run first. Another would be on Diesel and possibly a third on Propane or gasoline. If need be they can always truck the liquid fuels in from other locations.

The city of Cincinnati has an old partially combined sewer system meaning that the sewer and stormwater systems both go to the water treatment plant. The main pumping station has power fed from two seperate utilities. If both were ever to go down though, all the sewage and runoff would end up in the Ohio river.

Brian

 

[HOTFR8]

There's no right fuel choice for every situation.

Yes there is. Here in a Fire situation it was proven Diesel would out last a petrol Gen Set. A Diesel breathes better in that situation. After the last bad fires here in Victoria petrol (gas) gen sets died with heat (vaporisation of fuel) and in heavy smoke when the Diesels kept going. That was in the findings in the Governments Coronal inquest into the Black Saturday Fires.

Propane powered systems here in a Fire situation would be dangerous and here we call Propane cylinders Bullets for a reason as during a fire they usual take out half the house.

 

[bjcouche]

Alright, please school us on a "fire situation".

If the neighborhood around my house is filled with choking smoke, so much that spark ignited engines didn't operate, wouldn't I be unable to breathe as well?

Now if the diesel engine was running an engine for fire fighting purposes I could see a huge advantage there.

Try starting a diesel in northern Canada in the winter... the diesel cools to a pudding like consistency and can't be pumped into the engine.

What I was saying is that one type of fuel isn't the best choice for every situation. For a "fire situation" diesel might be the best choice. In locations where diesel is more solid than liquid other fuels would be a better choice.

Simply put, the best fuel choice will vary based on your location or situation.

To the OP:
As to a standby or portable generator, this also depends on your requirements. I have a portable generator that I have set up with a manual transfer switch. This setup was most cost effective for me. However a standby generator automatically starts and runs in the event of an outage. I was recently out of town for 2 weeks during which time the power went out for the entire second week. With nobody home to start the generator, My freezer completely thawed and was a huge mess when I got back.

Brian

 

[HOTFR8]

Alright, please school us on a "fire situation".

If the neighborhood around my house is filled with choking smoke, so much that spark ignited engines didn't operate, wouldn't I be unable to breathe as well?

Now if the diesel engine was running an engine for fire fighting purposes I could see a huge advantage there.

Try starting a diesel in northern Canada in the winter... the diesel cools to a pudding like consistency and can't be pumped into the engine.

What I was saying is that one type of fuel isn't the best choice for every situation. For a "fire situation" diesel might be the best choice. In locations where diesel is more solid than liquid other fuels would be a better choice.

Simply put, the best fuel choice will vary based on your location or situation.

To the OP:
As to a standby or portable generator, this also depends on your requirements. I have a portable generator that I have set up with a manual transfer switch. This setup was most cost effective for me. However a standby generator automatically starts and runs in the event of an outage. I was recently out of town for 2 weeks during which time the power went out for the entire second week. With nobody home to start the generator, My freezer completely thawed and was a huge mess when I got back.

Brian

I think I have covered most of it and you have just covered another situation about cold climates. So I think we can both agree the choice of Gen Set does have alot to do with the application it will be used for .

I would simply hate to be in a cold situation trying the get a Diesel powered anything to start .

Also the issues you cover also point back to good maintenance of what ever you set up to supply power when the grid has failed.

After Black Saturday here some years ago now the findings from the Coronal Inquiry did show Homes protected by Diesel Pumps and Diesel Gen Sets survived simply due to the fact they breathe better than Propane (LPG) or Gas (Petrol). Petrol vaporised in the heat even before the fire got to many locations and if they did not fail then they failed in the Fire situations. When that happened pumps and Gen Sets failed and people died in homes they could not the protect. It has been proven here if you can stay and protect your home 9 times out of 10 you will survive a fire as after the fire has passed you then get out and mop up but without reliable power this could not be done. Smoke was not really the issue but radiant heat.

A non Diesel Fire unit (truck) here is now a very rare thing to see for much of the same reasons.

I am still looking for the Gas bottle fire video to share that was filmed during the Black Saturday Fires but can not find it online. I know it frightend the Film crew in the air at the time as this home burnt after the fire had passed as it was ignited by embers.

 

[Burtonrider10022]

I think I have covered most of it and you have just covered another situation about cold climates. So I think we can both agree the choice of Gen Set does have alot to do with the application it will be used for .

I would simply hate to be in a cold situation trying the get a Diesel powered anything to start .

Also the issues you cover also point back to good maintenance of what ever you set up to supply power when the grid has failed.

After Black Saturday here some years ago now the findings from the Coronal Inquiry did show Homes protected by Diesel Pumps and Diesel Gen Sets survived simply due to the fact they breathe better than Propane (LPG) or Gas (Petrol). Petrol vaporised in the heat even before the fire got to many locations and if they did not fail then they failed in the Fire situations. When that happened pumps and Gen Sets failed and people died in homes they could not the protect. It has been proven here if you can stay and protect your home 9 times out of 10 you will survive a fire as after the fire has passed you then get out and mop up but without reliable power this could not be done. Smoke was not really the issue but radiant heat. A non Diesel Fire unit here is now a very rare thing to see for much of the same reasons.

I am still looking for the Gas bottle fire video to share that was filmed during the Black Saturday Fires but can not find it online.

I consider myself decently well rounded, especially by today's standards, but I don't even know what "Black Saturday" is, let alone why it would affect a generator. You keep saying fire situation, but here in the States fires are not an every day occurrence, and when forest fires do break out the govt. is getting very strict about mandatory evacuations. IMO if the smoke is thick enough to choke your generator, the Fire Dept and/or Forestry Service will have already hauled your *** out of there.

 

[HOTFR8]

I consider myself decently well rounded, especially by today's standards, but I don't even know what "Black Saturday" is, let alone why it would affect a generator. .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Saturday_bushfires
That link will tell you more. Something like 12 massive Fires in the state of Victoria in one day.

To put in in proportion of the Storm Sandy and Black Saturday OK.

IMO if the smoke is thick enough to choke your generator, the Fire Dept and/or Forestry Service will have already hauled your *** out of there.

OK you also missed the point and I went back and corrected my mistake as smoke is only part of the issue heat and was the big issue. You can survive in a home at and smoke. Petrol (gas) powered items do not run so well.

OK we are starting to get off topic from what the OP asked. I only wanted to point out why you choose a Gen Set and what reasons you consider when making that choice.

 

[slickgt1]

Easiest way is a transfer panel with additional breakers. The panel mounts next to your main panel, appropriate breaker feeds the transfer panel for normal use. Throw the transfer switch or breaker, and switches to generator power. Move the "necessary" circuits to the new panel. Something like this:

http://www.goodgenerators.net/acces...it-100-amp-utility60-amp-discount-and-coupon/

Check with your local inspector before installing - be sure whatever you choose meets local codes.

Thank you. I have an issue I didn't think about it. The location I want to put the generator, is no where near my panel. Lets see, for reference, the panel is essentially 3 floors above the generator, and 40' to the side. I can possibly run a riser all the way to the panel, this is going to cost me, I am sure.

Now 30', on the same floor as the generator, I have the city service, and meter. It then goes into a main kill breaker, that feeds the panel upstairs. Can I just wire the transfer panel to that main breaker, and if the power goes out, I manage the load from the breakers on the third floor? I figure, if the power goes, out, I kill all the lights and stuff, go turn off the breakers, and let the generator do its thing. If I am not home, there really isn't much for the generator to power. Just the boiler (Winter Only) and 2 fridges. Is this doable (I'm sure it is), or am I being stupid?

What happens when the generator can't meet the load anyway? Does it blow a fuse, turn off, start crying, run half power, etc...?

By the way, the situation here is quite ******. The streets are filling up with people soaked belongings. I would say a good tenth of the roads are not passable, trees, or power lines. The city, third of it is still without power. My house has no power, and it is now cold enough for us to abandon it. I cannot put my baby through another night of this ****. Even dressed up to sleep, it is not pleasant at all. I am also now sick as a dog, and should get to my doctor soon. I have been too busy helping out entire neighborhood blow out, clean out, pump out, houses. Clean out boilers and water heater. Re lighting all of them. I must have lit 200 boilers and water heaters yesterday. I schooled about 30 people on how to do it too. I have run out of fuel in my F150. My BMW X5 is now the work horse. I will probably run out of fuel by saturday, and then, I think it is time to take a break. Musinex, dayquil, is not cutting it anymore.

It pisses me off that I still cannot get heat into my house. I managed to fix my inlaws propane generator, I have quite a few tanks of propane, mainly for torch down roofing. We are moving there for now. All those fuel generators, are becoming paper weights. No fuel anywhere. I might be getting a friend to bring me a barrel of fuel, but it all depends on he can get a truck, and a damn barrel, lol.

It has been one of the worst disasters I have been part of. Irene in comparison was a little drizzle.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

The comments about natural gas are misinformed.

Regarding rectifiers: A rectifier is an ac/dc transformer that puts a small amount of DC current onto some coated steel gas lines to protect them from corrosion. If the rectifier loses power, the line depolarizes and it will start to corrode at any point where the coating has a defect. 6 months or 6 years later...a leak will develop at that point. As a NG user you will not be effected by a rectifier failure during a power outage.

Regarding compressors: Natural gas comes out of the ground at pressure (the deeper it is the higher the pressures and it can be in the hundreds of PSI). Compressors are used to move natural gas up and down interstate pipelines to bring gas to local distribution companies. Typically these pipelines run at up to 1000 PSI. Some of those compressors are powered by electricity and some of them are engine driven. In the event of a power outage, it will be more difficult to move gas on the transportation grid, but remember that you have a pipeline that may be hundreds of miles long, pumped up to 70 Atmospheres with a compressed gas. That is one fricking HUGE tank of gas. Meanwhile, anyone that doesn't have power can't even run their furnace. Schools are closed. Factories are closed (meaning theirs damn little usage on the gas system). AND...the pipeline extends out of the effected zone meaning they will still likely have a lot of their compressor capability...so the end user isn't going to see an issue because of that either.

Meanwhile...your local distribution company likely doesn't have any compressors for most facilities. They use pressure reducing regulators along their system to cut the delivery pressure from 1000 PSI to say 250 PSI in their larger lines to maybe 50 PSI in their distribution systems to 0.25 PSI in the meter at your house. The regulators are pneumatic. They don't use power.

When I looked at this for the gas company I worked for in 1999 in preparation for Y2K (yeah...I know...big waste of time)...the first effect most gas users would notice with gas supply in the event of a power failure would be when their bill doesn't show up...because it takes power to print them.

Now...all that being said, natural gas is a utility. It is a reliable utility (much more so than power)...but you can lose it. The biggest danger statistically is someone digs into a gas line somewhere with a backhoe. The greatest imaginable danger scenario would be a large earthquake that could bust up underground piping. So....I'm not saying it's perfect. It can be knocked out. It just isn't likely to be knocked out by a power outage.

I hope to get a NG standby generator someday. If I had more power outages, I guess I'd already have one. The people I know that have them have been well served by them.

Phil

 

[Alchymist]

The comments about natural gas are misinformed.
Regarding rectifiers: A rectifier is an ac/dc transformer that puts a small amount of DC current onto some coated steel gas lines to protect them from corrosion. If the rectifier loses power, the line depolarizes and it will start to corrode at any point where the coating has a defect. 6 months or 6 years later...a leak will develop at that point. As a NG user you will not be effected by a rectifier failure during a power outage.


Phil

You did well on everything except the rectifier bit. A rectifier is an electronic device to change ac to dc. A transformer changes ac from one voltage to another. Just clarifying ......

 

[2manytoyz]

I've been watching the aftermath of Sandy. For those going through this, I feel for you! I'm in FL, and have had my share of dealing with storms. They always ****.

An interesting thing to consider is fuel consumption. In 2004, we had back to back hurricanes that knocked out all power in the area for 18 days. I had a motorhome, and had left FL for GA, so I missed much of the aftermath. Two coworkers stayed. One had a large conventional generator, the other a Honda 2KW.

The conventional generator consumed about 1.5 gallons per hour. The Honda about 1 gallon per 8 hours. Since the power was out, the gas stations were closed since they couldn't pump gas.

The first generator needed 36 gallons per day. The other 3 gallons per day. In the course of 18 days, one needed 648 gallons of gas. The other needed 54 gallons.

648 x $4/gallon = $2592. 54 x $4/gallon = $216. A difference of $2376. These figures are ESTIMATES, but not far off the mark.

So we had a lessons learned discussion at work. Now we ALL own inverter type generators. The owner of the conventional generator initially said "they cost too much". I paid $1147, then received a $100 rebate through Yamaha. That one event, would have paid for my generator twice.

Granted, they both ran their generators constantly the entire time, but during a FL Summer, it's HOT! The Yamaha EF2400iS generator I have, will run a 5000 BTU A/C unit from idle (1/4 load), and use 1.6 gallons per 8+ hours. Before/during/after a hurricane, the weather is usually nasty enough that solar isn't effective. The storms also hit the FL Panhandle and took out a section of I-10, along with the natural gas line feeding the state. Those with NG fueled generators had no fuel.

I keep a few 5 gallon gas cans filled all the time. Each can represents a day's worth of fuel. I have another 10 cans that are empty stored in my shed. When a storm approaches, all the cans are filled. Between solar, and the fuel sipping generator, I can last a long time. Furthermore, I can replenish the battery bank during the day with solar/generator, and run all the critical loads, including the window A/C at night, from the battery bank. Very quiet method.

The coworker with the conventional generator had to drive out of the county everyday in search of fuel. The other had plenty on hand. He also has a boat that holds ~100 gallons.

Here's the testing I've done with my generator: http://www.2manytoyz.com/yamaha2400.html

Another thing to consider is you don't need to run all heavy loads at once. Run a microwave for 'x' minutes, then run your heater.

During an outage, I can run the following items from my 2400W generator:

TV, lights, fan, 5000 BTU A/C unit, two fridges, etc.

Or run the 13,500 BTU A/C unit on our travel trailer, along with the onboard battery charger, lights, TV, etc.

Or a various power tools.

And if things get too bad: Time to bug out...

 

[HaroRider]

I doubt you will find one in stores now..

Anyway there is no gas near me..****..

 

[slickgt1]

I doubt you will find one in stores now..

Anyway there is no gas near me..****..

No gas anywhere around. It's a mess around here. I know a guy who owns a gas station. He said deliveries are starting to come in, and that we should just be patient.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

You did well on everything except the rectifier bit. A rectifier is an electronic device to change ac to dc. A transformer changes ac from one voltage to another. Just clarifying ......

Thanks! I guess I'll have to schedule myself into Corrosion school at Purdue this winter. I quit going after I learned everything they had to teach. 15 years later, I've obviously lost a step.

Phil