Plomb tool picture thread - show your stuff!

[MR.X]

I recently found a Plomb piece with the US stamp. I'll post a picture later. The Vannatta website shows the "US" mark as part of their listing of known contract markings with this comment "Plomb special tools designed for the Aviation Industry".

Hi. There are definitely catalog listed "U.S." stamped aviation tools but they all have unique tool numbers. I'm sure I have a "U.S." marked open end wrench with no tool number too but it might be the exact same size....

 

[RagTopTA]

I recently found a Plomb piece with the US stamp. I'll post a picture later. The Vannatta website shows the "US" mark as part of their listing of known contract markings with this comment "Plomb special tools designed for the Aviation Industry".

I found a wrench non-pebble that had a U.S. stamp on the back side of it! I'll have to see if I can find it. I posted it here about a year ago I think.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I'm not sure what the Van Natta site even means by "Aviation Industry," (commercial? military aviation non-service specified?), and they don't provide an explanation, but if I had to guess, I suspect they are winging it by process of elimination, i.e., they're not Army Air Corps (WF) or Navy Aeronautics Bureau (NAF) but they must be government, and they are probably aviation oriented, so generically, "Aviation Industry." Most of us WWII collectors have dozens of tools marked with an extra "U.S.". Most of them are after-factory, but some of them (Crescent pliers are a good example) appear to be factory. They are considered martial, military, or just federal government in general (i.e., made for the Federal Standard Stock Catalog). Given all the tools they made for specific customers with specific markings, many of them aviation companies or the Air Corps or NAF, it seems odd to me that they would make tools for a distinct customer in the same industry or from within the Air Corps or NAF with a generic "U.S." marking. And I'm not sure how anyone could link a marking as broad and general as "U.S." to an area of industry without a reference document substantiating it, but until that is produced, I will remain skeptical.

EDIT: If they were all special aviation tools (long armed spark plug wrenches, etc), then perhaps they meant "Aviation" very broadly, customer unknown, but Roy has a common DOE, and again, if they were that specific to aviation, why would the particular aviation customer not have a specific marking?

 

[Provincial]

I'm not sure what the Van Natta site even means by "Aviation Industry," (commercial? military aviation non-service specified?), and they don't provide an explanation, but if I had to guess, I suspect they are winging it by process of elimination, i.e., they're not Army Air Corps (WF) or Navy Aeronautics Bureau (NAF) but they must be government, and they are probably aviation oriented, so generically, "Aviation Industry." Most of us WWII collectors have dozens of tools marked with an extra "U.S.". Most of them are after-factory, but some of them (Crescent pliers are a good example) appear to be factory. They are considered martial, military, or just federal government in general (i.e., made for the Federal Standard Stock Catalog). Given all the tools they made for specific customers with specific markings, many of them aviation companies or the Air Corps or NAF, it seems odd to me that they would make tools for a distinct customer in the same industry or from within the Air Corps or NAF with a generic "U.S." marking. And I'm not sure how anyone could link a marking as broad and general as "U.S." to an area of industry without a reference document substantiating it, but until that is produced, I will remain skeptical.

EDIT: If they were all special aviation tools (long armed spark plug wrenches, etc), then perhaps they meant "Aviation" very broadly, customer unknown, but Roy has a common DOE, and again, if they were that specific to aviation, why would the particular aviation customer not have a specific marking?

Perhaps the aviation tools in question were marked US during a period when the government was purchasing commercial tools prior to establishing formal contract procurement? Prior to Pearl Harbor, military mobilization was unpopular, and it takes some time to set up the purchasing bureauracy.

 

[r_olson_06]

Perhaps the aviation tools in question were marked US during a period when the government was purchasing commercial tools prior to establishing formal contract procurement? Prior to Pearl Harbor, military mobilization was unpopular, and it takes some time to set up the purchasing bureauracy.

Maybe the wrenches in marked in a format similar to the LA series with the sizes stamped near heads vs on the shank.

Looking for the following Plomb Pebbles Wrenches 3061, 3070,

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I'm not sure what unpopularity would have to do with it, Provincial. Despite the public sentiment and debate about US involvement in WWII prior to December 7, 1941, FDR was already using all the powers of the executive branch that he could muster beginning as early as late 1939 to do as much as possible short of declaring war. The Navy was conducting operations in the North Atlantic to keep shipping lanes open, the Treasury Dept was ordering tools from mfgrs to ship to the Allies under the Lend-Lease program, and the Army and Army Air Force were already letting huge contracts for planes, ships, tanks, and other equipment, including tools. The idea that the war machine was not cranked up until Pearl Harbor is not true. When the War Production Board published their Major War Supply Contracts books in 1945 (I have a copy), they started in June 1940, when they were an office within the Office of Emergency Management. In fact, Plomb's first "wartime" contract was June 1940 with the US Army for "Miscellaneous Tools," and they had three (3) other contracts before Pearl Harbor, in January and June of 1941 with the US Army Air Corps, and one of those was issued to the Bog/Cragin plant.

Having said all that, what I like about your theory is that the "U.S." martial markings are considered a carryover from WWI and Interwar, before a COO marking was universal.

It seems like something that would be easy enough to confirm or dismiss by inspecting the physical features and other markings of the tools bearing the "U.S." marking to identify their production period.

 

[MR.X]

I'm not sure what the Van Natta site even means by "Aviation Industry," (commercial? military aviation non-service specified?), and they don't provide an explanation, but if I had to guess, I suspect they are winging it by process of elimination, i.e., " to an area of industry without a reference document substantiating it, but until that is produced, I will remain skeptical.

EDIT: If they were all special aviation tools (long armed spark plug wrenches, etc), then perhaps they meant "Aviation" very broadly, customer unknown, but Roy has a common DOE, and again, if they were that specific to aviation, why would the particular aviation customer not have a specific marking?

I'm pretty sure they simply got it from Plomb catalogs with Aviation pages and US or U.S. marked tools like this one. I included some US marked tools, interestingly, the sparkplug sockets have date codes 35, 38, and 40. So obviously this doesn't solve the "U.S." marked doe wrench from earlier in this thread but maybe it helps.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I think I am following you now, MR. X. They simply noted that many of the tools with the "U.S." marking seem to be many of the same tools listed by Plomb on an "Aviation Tools" page, that even mentions the "aviation industry" in the text, and made the correlation.

They may be right by accident.

The 1935-1940 date code SPW's support Provincial's theory. So do the LA crows feet. And the "MADE IN U.S.A." era swivel might be pre-war, too.

As for Roy's DOE, even though it's common, they were in aviation mechanics kits, too.

It's getting warmer for it referring to early pre-war (or wartime per WPB records) government contracts in general, which happen to be Army Air Corps.

I think we need a wider sample size, eventually.

 

[MR.X]

Little bit clearer picture. Mix of "U.S." "P" and other #'s. I know the "P" aviation stuff goes all the way back to the 20's.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Doh! Mountain, meet molehill. What year catalog is that page from?

It does beg the question if commercial customers got the same tools, since it's a commercial catalog. Now I really see what you were saying above.

Strange.

 

[MR.X]

I imagine if I was making a table for "contract stampings" on the original Plomb website. I probably would have kept it simple like Ed Boudinot did(in what is being referred to as the "Van Natta" site). Keeping in mind the idiom "Perfect being the enemy of good" as it would relate to ever going live with a website in the first place.. Also, as he wrote specifically referring to that very section of his site "The interpretation of the stamping here, should not be considered 100% accurate...."

 

[Private Lugnutz]

What year is the catalog excerpt you posted?

 

[MR.X]

Doh! Mountain, meet molehill. What year catalog is that page from?

It does beg the question if commercial customers got the same tools, since it's a commercial catalog. Now I really see what you were saying above.

Strange.

Hi Lugz. The last pic is from the 17B which is what?...39? The earlier pic was from this Cragin pamphlet which is probably 40/41?

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Thanks.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Going back to Roy's question...

Here are the Plomb tools I noted in the March 1944 US Navy Aviation Supply Office Class 41 "Hand Tools" catalog (56 pages). I may have missed some. Don and Uniau, who have copies, may know of others.

- 9500A Screw Extractor Set
- 1508 File Holder
- 96-A Drift Punch Set
- 9800-D Screwdriver Set
- 227 Duck Bill Pliers
- 4040 Batter Terminal Puller
- 4020 Wheel Puller Set
- 1120-1164 DBE Wrenches
- All of the 1/4-, 3/8-, and 1/2-inch drive sockets and tools and tool-sets
(These are not all accompanied by a Plomb stock number, but some of them are, and many of the tools are recognizable as Plomb.)

Only the socket drive tools have corresponding NAF numbers. All the preceding items have Federal Stock Numbers only.

Most of the wrenches are Williams. Navy ASO was buying hand tools from Armstrong, North Bros, Ridge, GTD, Snap-on, Disston, Heller, Behr-Manning, Wiss, Starrett, Osborne, Utica, Kraeuter and many others.

 

[d42jeep]

Don't forget D-I. There are quite a few of these sets out there.
-Don

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I'm not sure what you mean, Don. To clarify, I only listed in post #5910 a smattering of mfgrs who are cited by name with a tool or tool-set. Duro may very well have provided those combo drive sets to the Navy. They seem to match the spec. But the catalog doesn't call out Duro and the figures of the individual 3/8- and 1/2-inch drive tools shown on previous pages, before the sets are listed, are not Duro. Probably best reserved for discussion on the Duro thread, though.

 

[d42jeep]

So you mean like these, I guess. Actually Plomb isn't named in the R41-W-2967 1/4" set but I doubt anybody would think they were supplied by anybody except Plomb.
-Don

 

[txlonghorn1989]

Picked up this Plomb 3/4" wrench today at an estate sale and it was suggested I post it here to get some info on it. Just wondering when it would have been made and how it was used. While I really do like Plomb stuff, I picked it up hoping it would be of trade value. Fyi, I haven't touched it to clean it up. Thanks!

 

[r_olson_06]

Picked up this Plomb 3/4" wrench today at an estate sale and it was suggested I post it here to get some info on it. Just wondering when it would have been made and how it was used. While I really do like Plomb stuff, I picked it up hoping it would be of trade value. Fyi, I haven't touched it to clean it up. Thanks!

I think it is a Ford main bearing bearing wrench. I know in the late 30s they switched to a double box end.
If you want to trade it off let me know what you are looking for.

Looking for the following Plomb Pebbles Wrenches 3061, 3070,

 

[r_olson_06]

Passed another milestone on the Plomb wrench expedition. With these 5 wrenches I have reached the 250 unique wrenches. Having a large amount of wrenches it is becoming more difficult to find ones I dont have yet. With that being said here is the 5 additions.
I am 1 wrench away from completing 2 sets and 2 wrenches from another.

If you have the following please let me know. I would love finish these off.
1164 smooth non LA
3065 smooth non LA
3061 pebble
3070 pebble

Looking for the following Plomb Pebbles Wrenches 3061, 3070,

 

[Private Lugnutz]

So you mean like these, I guess.

No, not entirely. Let me try again. Every Plomb tool or tool-set I listed in post #5910 is cited in the 1944 US Navy ASO Class 41 catalog by name and part number. No guessing or inference or other analysis based on the figures was needed or involved. Except for the 1/4-, 3/8-, and 1/2-inch socket drive tools, where I explained that some have NAF numbers and some have Plomb numbers, and, because the figures of the drive tools shown also look like Plomb, I felt confident in making the correlation.

The other mfgrs I cited are all examples of mfgrs with tools or tool-sets cited by name and part number. Again, NO inference or analysis. Since this is the Plomb thread, I did not provide details (which tools, part numbers, etc). It was meant to give readers a larger context for the catalog. Some Plomb, but certainly not exclusive or even a majority.

The list of tools or tool-sets I have identified by analysis of the figures is of course much longer than the handful of mfgrs I cited, but I have no plans to go into that on a Plomb thread, or any other thread for that matter, at this time.

Actually Plomb isn't named in the R41-W-2967 1/4" set but I doubt anybody would think they were supplied by anybody except Plomb.

Why would they when there is so much substantiation?

(1) Plomb sets have been found with the R41-W-2967 NAF nomenclature, not only on the tools themselves, but the decal on the box proving that Plomb was at least one of the Navy's suppliers of that set. (Note that there is also a Williams box with the R41W-2967 decal out there.)

(2) Plomb 1/4-inch tools are used as figures in the same catalog, just a few pages prior to the R41-W-2967 1/4-inch set, and, since none of the sets (1/4, 3/8-, or 1/2) are accompanied by figures, for space saving, I think we are clearly meant to refer back to the individual listings.

(3) And, as noted above, Plomb had several other tools and tool-sets shown in the same catalog.

 

[RubiconJK]

Wow...lots of good info about the Plomb US marking! Here is the picture of my US 52 marked swivel socket. As Lugz mentioned in one of his posts earlier, I have had other war era tools with the US marks (seems like mostly pliers of one type or another), but this is the first Plomb like this I've found.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

The earlier pic was from this Cragin pamphlet which is probably 40/41?

Kinda neat how that pamphlet lines up with this early (June 1941 to October 1941) Plomb/Cragin plant Air Corps contract!

Logic dictates that some if not most or all of the Air Corps contracts (cut off/not all shown on this particular excerpt) resulted in the "WF-" series tools, but maybe the early contracts were filled with "US-" series tools, as Provincial first proposed.

 

[woodland_hank]

I finally acquired the full set of pebble combo wrenches. Now I'm working on the wall display for the set. All that's left is to create the artwork for the logo to cut out in vinyl. I'm still not 100% sure what logo to use yet. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I'll be using 1 to 2 colors for the logo. Any more than that gets too complicated for my patience...

 

[3baygarage]

You sure have a skill there Hank, making all those nice displays.


R- that 20” Plomb is a beast. I have a Proto version but yours is cooler!



Does anyone know what Kiowa stands for? Does is pertain to the helicopter?

Not super old, but old enough with the brass lever from the Proto era. I’ve long put off picking up one of these. I think some others I’ve seen in the past had the Penens/Fleet/Proto oval shaped head.

 

[RubiconJK]

Does anyone know what Kiowa stands for? Does is pertain to the helicopter?

Not super old, but old enough with the brass lever from the Proto era. I’ve long put off picking up one of these. I think some others I’ve seen in the past had the Penens/Fleet/Proto oval shaped head.

3bay, I've no idea and never seen one until now. Is the Kiowa mark something you see often in your area?

 

[3baygarage]

No, I’ve only ever seen them on the forums and ebay.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Does anyone know what Kiowa stands for? Does is pertain to the helicopter?

I have no idea, 3bay, but the Kiowa was made by Bell Helicopter from 1969 to very recently. When was the ratchet made?

 

[txlonghorn1989]

That Kiowa ratchet is a Proto right? And no one knows Kiowa? Wow!!! Stumpin' the experts!! Cool!

 

[RagTopTA]

I think I posted mine here once no one knew anything about it. Mine came from my granddad's tools.

 

[RagTopTA]

I have no idea, 3bay, but the Kiowa was made by Bell Helicopter from 1969 to very recently. When was the ratchet made?

My stepdad just retired from Bell helicopter 5 years ago. 40 years there, I'll ask him and see if there might be a tie in there.

 

[3baygarage]

Cool. Maybe there is a connection. Funny, the finish of the gear and face plate look opposite.

Yes TX, they appear to be a Proto ratchet.

Lugz, not sure on the age of the brass lever Proto ratchets.

 

[rickhigginshtbr]

Kinda neat how that pamphlet lines up with this early (June 1941 to October 1941) Plomb/Cragin plant Air Corps contract!

Logic dictates that some if not most or all of the Air Corps contracts (cut off/not all shown on this particular excerpt) resulted in the "WF-" series tools, but maybe the early contracts were filled with "US-" series tools, as Provincial first proposed.

That right there could be why we see different variations of WF tools, if some were made in LA and some in Chicago.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

That right there could be why we see different variations of WF tools, if some were made in LA and some in Chicago.

This has been noted before, Rick. WWII ads proclaim that Plomb had 30+ plants operating! Most of them almost certainly subcontracted. Not sure why what is almost certainly the Cragin plant is called out for its own Air Corps contract, but note that P&C is called out at with its own Air Corps contracts under its own name (edit: not shown in this excerpt). Whether that is due to slightly different types of ownership (wholly-owned subsidiary, etc) or just government quirkiness, I don't know.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Picked up another plomb box. Little rusty on bottom but otherwise not bad.

 

[JoCoSawdust]

Picked up another plomb box. Little rusty on bottom but otherwise not bad.

Nice snag OTG. Damn you're going to be able to build yourself a bomb shelter out of Plomb boxes!

 

[RubiconJK]

I think I posted mine here once no one knew anything about it. Mine came from my granddad's tools.

Ragz, you got that guy all fired up on the Plomb FB page about your ratchet! Lol!!

 

[JoCoSawdust]

Ragz, you got that guy all fired up on the Plomb FB page about your ratchet! Lol!!

He did didn't he!! Apparently that guy missed the "MFD USA" part. Fun to watch though!

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Nice snag OTG. Damn you're going to be able to build yourself a bomb shelter out of Plomb boxes!

I buy em when I find them. They are something a little different and usually pretty cheap. Most of the people I get them from don't seem to think much of them.