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Plumbing compressor, copper/black pipe?

plym49

Active member
Joined
Sep 11, 2008
Messages
32
:dunno:

Give em books . . . .and give em books . . . never learn ?? :willy_nil
Guess you forgot that businesses are subject to OSHA rules ?? And that businesses need to carry insurance?? :dunno:

Black pipe steel is around $1 / ft and lasts forever. Copper might end up at $1.50 / ft and also last forever. Both of these are TOTALLY Safe.

Why would you waste your money putting in **** PVC at $0.50 / ft??

Also, forgot to READ that title of thread was Copper . . . OR . . Black Pipe!!

Thank you for passing judgement on a business you know nothing about.

I also have a slight muscle pain - would you be kind enough to diagnose that for me, too, seeing how prescient you are? :D
 
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pepi

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Mar 27, 2013
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Woodstock, GA
100 percent CORRECT!!!

Black pipe steel is around $1 / ft and lasts forever. Copper might end up at $1.50 / ft and also last forever. Both of these are TOTALLY safe to use


PVC is for water, no way is it to be used with compressors and air stations for air tools. It has a funny tendency of rupturing and sending PVC shrapnel all over the shop gamble if you like. It is well known PVC is **** and a disaster when used this way.

plym49
"I also have a slight muscle pain - would you be kind enough to diagnose that for me, too, seeing how prescient you are?"

Sounds like you have your foot in your mouth or head up your a$$
 

Winmon

Well-known member
Joined
May 14, 2006
Messages
350
Location
Sequim, Wa
OSHA Safety Hazard Information Bulletin on
the Use of Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC) Pipe
in Above ground Installations


http://www.osha.gov/dts/hib/hib_data/hib19880520.html

PVC PIPING EXPLOSION INJURES MANUFACTURING WORKER

http://www.personalinjuryattorneybostonma.com/2012/01/pvc-piping-explosion-injures-manufacturing-worker.shtml

Wash. State L&I - PVC pipe not to be used in compressed air systems
http://www.lni.wa.gov/Safety/Basics/HazAlerts/902.asp


http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?104099-CVPC-or-PVC-Air-line
 
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CNGsaves

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Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
13,233
Location
KS and OK
OSHA Safety Hazard Information Bulletin on
the Use of Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC) Pipe
in Above ground Installations


http://www.osha.gov/dts/hib/hib_data/hib19880520.html

PVC PIPING EXPLOSION INJURES MANUFACTURING WORKER

http://www.personalinjuryattorneybostonma.com/2012/01/pvc-piping-explosion-injures-manufacturing-worker.shtml

Wash. State L&I - PVC pipe not to be used in compressed air systems
http://www.lni.wa.gov/Safety/Basics/HazAlerts/902.asp


http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?104099-CVPC-or-PVC-Air-line

That right there is a "Good Book" for Plym49 to read . . . Ha, Ha !! :lol:

Dating back to 1988 the DOL (Department of Labor) had been warning about risks of PVC as an airline transport system above ground.

Department of Labor said:
NOTICE TO EMPLOYEES: If you suspect that a pressurized PVC piping hazard exists, bring it to the attention on your employer. If you do not obtain satisfactory results, you may file a confidential complaint with the Department of Labor & Industries. Complaints are investigated promptly. Call the Department's toll free number at 1-800-423-7233.

NOTICE TO EMPLOYERS: If you have questions about the suitability of a material for air system piping, call the Department of Labor & Industries Regional Office for a free consultation.
 

plym49

Active member
Joined
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Messages
32
For all of you Internet tough guys - seems most if not all of you are noobs based on your join dates -- who think that yelling and insulting someone is the way to get your point across -- think again.

Read my post. I stated that I, too had reservations about PVC as air line but that my own experience and observation with PVC air systems that were built by someone else showed no problems after years of heavy use.

For those citing 'official' guidelines as justification against: my goodness. There are many threads on this forum where folks complain about how their officials won't let them build their garage as big as they'd like and other 'official' issues. An 'official' word is not always the 'right' word or the only word. It's just a word, and the richness of these forums comes from exposure to different pieces of information that each of us on our own would otherwise never have.

I would bet that most of you have never seen or used a PVC air system, despite your vehemence. I know that I had not until I purchased the businesses in question. Guess what - experience trumped preconceived notion. That's a tidbit of information for all of you that cost you nothing.

Take this additional information based on first-hand experience as you wish. Make up your own mind. Do what you will, recommend what you will. I don't have any vested interest in how the OP plumbs his air lines and neither do any of you.

But do not yell or insult as there is no place for that on this forum.

(Oh, and read back a little further, and note that I originally recommended copper.)
 

Tim The Tool Man

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Joined
Mar 1, 2012
Messages
1,520
Location
Lehigh Valley, PA
200 lbs rating not enough? For a compressed air system with a compressor cut-off around 125 psi, yes? Why would 200 not be enough - and if you forgot and cranked your compressor up to 300, what would happen? A pinhole leak? A small flap of copper pipe blowing open? Goodness gracious, perhaps over-engineering things a bit?

I didn't say it wouldn't work, in fact I said it would be easier for a beginner because of its lower melting point. What I did say is that I don't want a spool of it in my house because I might inadvertently use it on a potable water line... Here is my original comment.

"Though you could probably get away with lead solder and it would be the easiest for a first timer because of its low melting point, I would NEVER use it for not only the reasons Charles mentions but also for what I like to call the lazy factor.

I am often lazy and if I need to make a future repair I might forget that that particular spool of solder is leaded and I might make a water line repair in my house with it. So I just would not want it in my house."
 

Tim The Tool Man

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Joined
Mar 1, 2012
Messages
1,520
Location
Lehigh Valley, PA
I have avoided getting myself involved in these PVC air line debates for several reasons, namely the name calling and heated arguments that always seem to follow when people have strong opinions one way or the other. Also I am somewhat guilty myself because I have made several potato guns out of PVC and in addition to a compression wave, you also have heat thrown into the mix which can really spell disaster. I also considered running PVC airlines in my old shop but went with coiled air hose instead. Lurking on the Garage Journal when I was building my current shop steered me away from PVC almost immediately.

So here is my thoughts on PVC air lines (some of my comments are paraphrased from other websites): First, don't do it and if you do (or did) at least bury it in a wall so if it does blow the shrapnel is safely contained. Any fittings or adapters ought to also be buried in the wall so that only a black iron pipe is expose in the shop environment. I suppose burying the line under ground would be safe as long as all the fittings are buried as well...

I guess you need to look at it this way, pressure is pressure. If a piece of pipe is rated for 200 psi, it can handle 200 psi, whether it's water, air, or any other fluid. The difference between air and water is that water is not compressible. In fact, SCUBA tanks and other high-pressure tanks are routinely "Hydro tested," which involves filling the vessel with water, then pressurizing it to the working pressure. Typically, a dye is added, so leaks can be easily found. That, however, is not the primary reason for using an non-compressible fluid - since it cannot compress, it does not expand when depressurized. That means that if the pipe was to fail, it would just crack or pop, rather than exploding violently. The reason PVC pipe is not considered safe for compressed air by OSHA is that in an industrial environment, air lines can be subjected to unusual forces, such as sudden blows, drops, or sharp bends, which create weak points in the plastic's structure. These weak points eventually become failure points, which are the causes of explosions when operating within the maximum pressure rating of the pipe.

PVC is also not treated to be resistant to ultraviolet radiation and will degrade if exposed via a window or even florescent shop lighting. PVC that has degraded becomes even more brittle. I bet more than one of you has accidentally busted a sewer vent cap with your push mower. That cap broke because it was sitting in the sun for many years becoming more and more brittle.

Here is a first hand account that I shamelessly stole off another website:

My neighbor had 3/4" Sch.40 PVC he had been using as compressed air lines in his garage for 15 years operating at 125 psi max pressure. He recently upgraded the compressor to a Wayne series 5000 which is rated for 175 psi. I told my neighbor to not even attempt and use his existing air lines if he's going to pump up his 80 gallon tank and air lines to 175 psi. Well.......he didn't listen. As soon as the pressure got up to about 170 psi, he stated the air line fractured and sent PVC shrapnel flying. He stated it sounded lke a gun going off! Fortunately, no one was injured but a wise lesson was learned. Aftwards, he told me he should have listened......duh!
IMG_0671.jpg


Here is another first hand account, also stolen:

PVC is bad.
Here's a shot of a line that came apart at a shop I was working at:

IMG_0087.jpg


One more stolen story:

Air Line Caused Explosion - 06.27.2007
On Wednesday June 27, 2007, the Monroe Fire Department was alerted for an explosion in the 100 block of west 8th Street. Upon arrival, Fire Command found employees outside of the building and stating that something exploded inside of the building. Once inside, there was damage to the ceiling and PVC piping on the floor. Crews secured the building and utilities. Maintenance personnel stated that the pipe was connected to the air compressor. During the investigation, it was determined that a elbow connected to the pipe released causing the explosion. There was no structural damage to the building. Maintenance personnel were inside fixing the piping and were expected to back up and running by the morning,
Green County EMS, Monroe Police Department, Wisconsin State Patrol and Monroe Building Inspector assisted at the incident. Crews remained on scene for 1 hour.


07-103%20038.jpg

07-103%20037.jpg




And here are my potato guns!

This is the Mark 1. It will easily shoot a russet over 100 yards!
cannon3_zpsfe769b37.jpg


This is one that I never finished painting the desert camo. It is an over the shoulder rocket launcher style.
cannon1_zps75e80b86.jpg

cannon2_zps49ba8ad0.jpg
 

rob in nh

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Joined
May 11, 2012
Messages
205
Location
kingston nh
i never knew anyone would use pvc for airlines until i found this site. i would have never thought it could do that much damage
 

Winmon

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Joined
May 14, 2006
Messages
350
Location
Sequim, Wa
For all of you Internet tough guys - seems most if not all of you are noobs based on your join dates -- who think that yelling and insulting someone is the way to get your point across -- think again.

But do not yell or insult as there is no place for that on this forum.

:dunno::dunno:

seems most if not all of you are noobs based on your join dates

Might want to check my join date/post count again vs. yours.....Besides that, I will never understand how a "join date" determines a posters knowledge and experience :dunno:

You own a business. Do you have employees? If so, why does it not concern you to put them in a potentially dangerous postion. Do you think all the links I posted and pictures Tim the Tool Man posted are just "rare" instances? Imagine the possible lawsuit you would be facing if your PVC piping failed and seriously injured an employee..
Here is one possible outcome if your lines did let go.

Region 4 News Release: 11-1729-ATL (599)
Dec. 27, 2011
Contact: Michael D'Aquino Michael Wald
Phone: 404-562-2076 404-562-2078
Email: d'[email protected] [email protected]

US Department of Labor's OSHA cites Florida manufacturer for
willful and serious safety violations, proposes nearly $110,000 in fines.

CLEARWATER, Fla. – The U.S. Department of Labor's Occupational Safety and Health Administration has cited Model Screw Products Inc. of Clearwater for 18 safety violations. OSHA opened an investigation after receiving a complaint alleging that PVC piping was inappropriately being used for compressed air. Proposed penalties total $109,800.

OSHA's inspection found that PVC piping used to transport compressed air had ruptured three times in June and in the third instance caused an employee to suffer hearing loss and trauma. One willful violation with a penalty of $63,000 has been cited for using PVC piping to transport compressed air. A willful violation is one committed with intentional knowing or voluntary disregard for the law's requirements, or with plain indifference to worker safety and health.

"Management knew the dangers associated with transporting compressed air through PVC piping but chose to put employees at risk. Unfortunately, the practice resulted in a worker being injured," said Les Grove, OSHA's area director in Tampa. "It is the employer's responsibility to assess workplace hazards and ensure that corrective measures are taken to protect employees."


http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=NEWS_RELEASES&p_id=21567

Here is the lawfirm that represented those employees...

http://www.personalinjuryattorneybostonma.com/2012/01/pvc-piping-explosion-injures-manufacturing-worker.shtml
 
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plym49

Active member
Joined
Sep 11, 2008
Messages
32
:dunno::dunno:



Might want to check my join date/post count again vs. yours.....Besides that, I will never understand how a "join date" determines a posters knowledge and experience :dunno:

You own a business. Do you have employees? If so, why does it not concern you to put them in a potentially dangerous postion. Do you think all the links I posted and pictures Tim the Tool Man posted are just "rare" instances? Imagine the possible lawsuit you would be facing if your PVC piping failed and seriously injured an employee..
Here is one possible outcome if your lines did let go.

Region 4 News Release: 11-1729-ATL (599)
Dec. 27, 2011
Contact: Michael D'Aquino Michael Wald
Phone: 404-562-2076 404-562-2078
Email: d'[email protected] [email protected]

US Department of Labor's OSHA cites Florida manufacturer for
willful and serious safety violations, proposes nearly $110,000 in fines.

CLEARWATER, Fla. – The U.S. Department of Labor's Occupational Safety and Health Administration has cited Model Screw Products Inc. of Clearwater for 18 safety violations. OSHA opened an investigation after receiving a complaint alleging that PVC piping was inappropriately being used for compressed air. Proposed penalties total $109,800.

OSHA's inspection found that PVC piping used to transport compressed air had ruptured three times in June and in the third instance caused an employee to suffer hearing loss and trauma. One willful violation with a penalty of $63,000 has been cited for using PVC piping to transport compressed air. A willful violation is one committed with intentional knowing or voluntary disregard for the law's requirements, or with plain indifference to worker safety and health.

"Management knew the dangers associated with transporting compressed air through PVC piping but chose to put employees at risk. Unfortunately, the practice resulted in a worker being injured," said Les Grove, OSHA's area director in Tampa. "It is the employer's responsibility to assess workplace hazards and ensure that corrective measures are taken to protect employees."


http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=NEWS_RELEASES&p_id=21567

Here is the lawfirm that represented those employees...

http://www.personalinjuryattorneybostonma.com/2012/01/pvc-piping-explosion-injures-manufacturing-worker.shtml

Very simple: your tone is argumentative and accusatory.

Posting names of law firms? Really? Trying to throw some weight around?

Feel free to state your opinion or relate your experiences, just as I did.

But respectfully suggest you do so in a way that advances discussion and the exchange of information as opposed to ridiculing someone who posts information contrary to your own view.
 

Stuart in MN

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Joined
Sep 8, 2005
Messages
23,016
Location
Minneapolis
Whenever there is an air line discussion some smart aleck who thinks they are funny has to mention PVC along with an LOL emoticon, and then the discussion goes downhill from there.

The pipe was pressurized at the time and there was no explosion or shards of PVC flying, the pipe just broke. Five minutes later a repair was glued in place. BTW this system ran at 150 psi.

The thing is, your experience was a sample of one...PVC isn't necessarily going to send shards flying every single time it breaks but it certainly can, due to its physical structure. I've witnessed a PVC air line break myself. In that case it simply broke without anything or anyone bumping into it, and it did leave pieces of plastic stuck in the walls. There are many other documented reports of PVC failure, both from other people here on the board as well as in the links posted above.

Without getting emotional about it, the simple fact is the PVC pipe manufacturers specifically say their product is not designed for use with compressed gases. Since there are several other readily available products that are designed for compressed air, I don't see any good reason to use PVC.
 

plym49

Active member
Joined
Sep 11, 2008
Messages
32
Whenever there is an air line discussion some smart aleck who thinks they are funny has to mention PVC along with an LOL emoticon, and then the discussion goes downhill from there.



The thing is, your experience was a sample of one...PVC isn't necessarily going to send shards flying every single time it breaks but it certainly can, due to its physical structure. I've witnessed a PVC air line break myself. In that case it simply broke without anything or anyone bumping into it, and it did leave pieces of plastic stuck in the walls. There are many other documented reports of PVC failure, both from other people here on the board as well as in the links posted above.

Without getting emotional about it, the simple fact is the PVC pipe manufacturers specifically say their product is not designed for use with compressed gases. Since there are several other readily available products that are designed for compressed air, I don't see any good reason to use PVC.

Thank you for calmly and logically presenting your information.

I repeat that I am not a PVC bigot; quite the contrary, I use galvanized in my home shop.

I was simply relating experience I had. That is indeed an additional data point.

If everyone can get past the emotion I submit an irony: some folks who would not plumb their shop with PVC have no problems using it for things like potato cannons. If you are not comfortable enough with this material holding a compressible gas up along ceilings and walls, why are you comfortable holding it pressurized next to your crotch?

Just sayin'.
 

machine_punk

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Joined
May 14, 2011
Messages
2,540
Location
Napa Valley, California
OK...let's jump back on track...and move the PVC stuff to another thread, if you guys still want to talk about it.

Here is a thread I did a while ago, looking at anecdotal data from real installations on black/galvanized/copper/aluminum pipe for air lines. I asked people to only respond if they had installed one of these systems and had real-world experience...
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=134536

It's been a while since I reviewed that thread, but I don't seem to remember anyone saying, "I wouldn't install ______ pipe again." Pick what you are comfortable installing and enjoy.

I know I plan to install copper pipe (3/4" runner, with 1/2" drops).

Kev
 

Randyman

Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2012
Messages
16
This is the way to go.... the plastic hose is way faster and cheaper with the same end result as copper or black pipe. Just do not use galvanized pipe! Use rubber if you don't like the plastic hose. It will last as long as you do!

If you don't like the visual appearance of either of these options slide the hose inside a piece of pvc, you'll get a nice looking job and it will be simple to support without sagging.



Use the cheap orange $15 a roll air hose, some brass barb fittings and little hose clamps, some tee's if needed, plumbing u clips to mount to walls. Way easier and cheaper than black pipe or copper. My friend "temporarily" put this set-up in his garage 15 years ago and hasn't had any problems nor any need to replace it.

This is how I'm going to plumb my garage.
 

Ron Lombardo

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Feb 20, 2006
Messages
393
Location
New York
There is so much pressure and volume loss with compressed air dryers, filters, fittings and hoses that it would be best to run a header along the ceiling with a larger size pipe and then 1/2 drops down in multiple locations. The correct piping configuration eliminates water / condensate problems which in turn damages the air tools and if you use it to paint ..the paint job. An air dryer at the compressor will only eliminate the majority.... as the air passes thru the piping if the temperatures vary it will condense again. So pitching the pipe back to the compressor and air dryers at the point of use is very important. What ever pipe you use is only a basis of longevity ... but the pipe sizes are most important ... I don't see the point in buying the best Air compressor and connecting hoses to it ... while you can have a mediocre compressor and pipe it correctly and maximize the usage efficiently.
" Just do not use galvanized pipe! Use rubber if you don't like the plastic hose "
This comment speaks for itself ... my experience is based on years of installations ... you can buy Gal Pipe a home depot and have years of NO RUST in your filters and dryers.

Ron
 

Randyman

Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2012
Messages
16
There is so much pressure and volume loss with compressed air dryers, filters, fittings and hoses that it would be best to run a header along the ceiling with a larger size pipe and then 1/2 drops down in multiple locations. The correct piping configuration eliminates water / condensate problems which in turn damages the air tools and if you use it to paint ..the paint job. An air dryer at the compressor will only eliminate the majority.... as the air passes thru the piping if the temperatures vary it will condense again. So pitching the pipe back to the compressor and air dryers at the point of use is very important. What ever pipe you use is only a basis of longevity ... but the pipe sizes are most important ... I don't see the point in buying the best Air compressor and connecting hoses to it ... while you can have a mediocre compressor and pipe it correctly and maximize the usage efficiently.
" Just do not use galvanized pipe! Use rubber if you don't like the plastic hose "
This comment speaks for itself ... my experience is based on years of installations ... you can buy Gal Pipe a home depot and have years of NO RUST in your filters and dryers.

Ron
Well Ron.... I have years of experience myself and have seen many times where it doesn't take very long at all for rust to build up inside galvanized pipe if any moisture is present. Why over engineer this simple issue?
 

Ron Lombardo

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Messages
393
Location
New York
Rust in galvanized pipe ? Galvanized pipe was used for 100 years on domestic water piping and the only issue was the exposed threaded joints rust.

Your recommending rubber hose ? People invest in expensive compressors , dryers air tools and create projects that cost money to create ... and you use a rubber hose to deliver the air ... I would not trust it when I crank my compressor up to 150 psi to blast ... my opinion.
 
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jvitez

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Joined
Nov 30, 2009
Messages
2,429
Location
Big Sky Country, Canada
I've had so many leaks from the galvanized piping installed in our geothermal system I would never use it for anything! I guess made in China "quality" isn't what US-made quality was 40 years ago. Every leaking fitting or pipe was replaced with soldered copper or PEX.

I wish the HVAC contractor would have simply charged me more and done everything in copper, but he was trying to be cost effective by using NPT galvanized. He's had so many problems since our house was built he's switched to PEX.

I plan on using copper for my garage's air lines. I can sweat copper well enough, though I really need to try MAPP gas, plus I just don't trust the quality of currently available steel pipe.

Here are pics of my 6 year old geothermal system. This is the water inlet using well water in an open loop configuration. It was leaking from the rust stained area on the right. I took it apart and redid it with 3/4" copper. The valve worked fine so I reused it; it's only rusty on the handle from condensation during cooling season.
 

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CNGsaves

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KS and OK
Stuart in MN said:
Whenever there is an air line discussion some smart aleck who thinks they are funny has to mention PVC along with an LOL emoticon, and then the discussion goes downhill from there.

The thing is, your {ie Plym49's PVC} experience was a sample of one...PVC isn't necessarily going to send shards flying every single time it breaks but it certainly can, due to its physical structure. I've witnessed a PVC air line break myself. In that case it simply broke without anything or anyone bumping into it, and it did leave pieces of plastic stuck in the walls. There are many other documented reports of PVC failure, both from other people here on the board as well as in the links posted above.

Without getting emotional about it, the simple fact is the PVC pipe manufacturers specifically say their product is not designed for use with compressed gases. Since there are several other readily available products that are designed for compressed air, I don't see any good reason to use PVC.

PLM49 / dated 3/30/13 said:
Thank you for calmly and logically presenting your information.

I repeat that I am not a PVC bigot; quite the contrary, I use galvanized in my home shop.

I was simply relating experience I had. That is indeed an additional data point.

If everyone can get past the emotion I submit an irony: some folks who would not plumb their shop with PVC have no problems using it for things like potato cannons. If you are not comfortable enough with this material holding a compressible gas up along ceilings and walls, why are you comfortable holding it pressurized next to your crotch? Just saying.

* * * * * * PREVIOUS posts by PLM49 * * * * * * *
Plym49 said:
Post 36 dated 3/29/13 (argument with Tim The Tool Man that 200 psi rating on airline system was adequate)
200 lbs rating not enough? For a compressed air system with a compressor cut-off around 125 psi, yes? Why would 200 not be enough - and if you forgot and cranked your compressor up to 300, what would happen? A pinhole leak? A small flap of copper pipe blowing open? Goodness gracious, perhaps over-engineering things a bit?
* * * * * * * * * *
Post 37 dated 3/29/13
I was an anti-PVC bigot myself. Then I purchased a business with a large shop that had a couple of hundred feet of PVC air lines run throughout. They worked flawlessly for years with no problems save one break where one of my workers hit a section with something heavy. The pipe was pressurized at the time and there was no explosion or shards of PVC flying, the pipe just broke. Five minutes later a repair was glued in place. BTW this system ran at 150 psi.

I have subsequently purchased another shop building that also is plumbed with PVC air lines. I am not expecting any problems with them, either.

Would I run PVC air lines if I was installing from scratch? I would always have said 'no', but given my experience and the cost of black iron and copper, it would be considered for sure.
* * * * * * * * * *

Post 41 dated 3/29/13 (argument with CNGsaves that business should be using PVC airline system)
Thank you for passing judgement on a business you know nothing about.

I also have a slight muscle pain - would you be kind enough to diagnose that for me, too, seeing how prescient you are?

* * * * * * * * * *
Post 46 dated 3/30/13 (argument with Winmon
For all of you Internet tough guys - seems most if not all of you are noobs based on your join dates -- who think that yelling and insulting someone is the way to get your point across -- think again.

Read my post. I stated that I, too had reservations about PVC as air line but that my own experience and observation with PVC air systems that were built by someone else showed no problems after years of heavy use.

For those citing 'official' guidelines as justification against: my goodness. There are many threads on this forum where folks complain about how their officials won't let them build their garage as big as they'd like and other 'official' issues. An 'official' word is not always the 'right' word or the only word. It's just a word, and the richness of these forums comes from exposure to different pieces of information that each of us on our own would otherwise never have.

I would bet that most of you have never seen or used a PVC air system, despite your vehemence. I know that I had not until I purchased the businesses in question. Guess what - experience trumped preconceived notion. That's a tidbit of information for all of you that cost you nothing.

Take this additional information based on first-hand experience as you wish. Make up your own mind. Do what you will, recommend what you will. I don't have any vested interest in how the OP plumbs his air lines and neither do any of you.

But do not yell or insult as there is no place for that on this forum.

(Oh, and read back a little further, and note that I originally recommended copper.)

* * * * * * * * * *
Post 53 dated 3/30/13 (argument with Winmon that OSHA rules would apply to your business)
Very simple: your tone is argumentative and accusatory.

Posting names of law firms? Really? Trying to throw some weight around?

Feel free to state your opinion or relate your experiences, just as I did.

But respectfully suggest you do so in a way that advances discussion and the exchange of information as opposed to ridiculing someone who posts information contrary to your own view.

* * * * * * * * * *
Post 55 dated 3/30/13 (comment to Stuart in MN)
I repeat that I am not a PVC bigot; quite the contrary, I use galvanized in my home shop.

I was simply relating experience I had. That is indeed an additional data point.

If everyone can get past the emotion I submit an irony: some folks who would not plumb their shop with PVC have no problems using it for things like potato cannons. If you are not comfortable enough with this material holding a compressible gas up along ceilings and walls, why are you comfortable holding it pressurized next to your crotch?

Overall, gotta say yours words just don't have ANY TRUTH to them. Flip-flop after creating argument on HOW TO Solder Copper . . then create "argument" that PVC is safe for airline system since Plym49 has several businesses with PVC airline system. Then, Plym49 finally says he has Galvanized Steel airline system at home!!

Wow, how is that not a PVC bigot . . . PLUS . . . an Employee Bigot . . . . as Plym49 expects that employees SHOULD continue be subjected to RISK that the **** PVC airline system will blow causing injury.

SOLUTION: Plym49 needs to ONLY change out portion of airline system that is next to employee workers to be Galvanized Steel (that's Plym49 preference, AND at least it would be safe) . . . HOWEVER . . . . then Plym49 needs to greatly EXPAND his PVC airline system (with all the scraps taken down from employee area), AND install all these PVC airlines and build an entire cage around his desk area that he sits at these businesses!!! DO NOT allow any other employee to sit at your desk Plym49 . . . only YOU need to be exposed to that PVC airline risk.

And REMEMBER, crank up pressure and get a monster compressor that puts out 175 psi and NEVER SHUT DOWN the airline system and keep pressure on that PVC airline system constantly in Plym49's office all around him. Once a couple connections blow out and shrapnel Plym49's head with sharp plastic pieces, then maybe he'll see the light and remove all PVC airline systems in all these businesses that he portrays that he owns!! :rocker:

Back on original topic for OP, install appropriately sized airline system with Copper if you're ready to learn sweating technique. Otherwise, get you a pipe cutter and threader for black pipe steel and go to town assembling a LIFE-LONG safe system with black pipe. When properly installed, either the Copper or Black-Pipe will be safe and lifelong systems.
 

Randyman

Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2012
Messages
16
Rust in galvanized pipe ? Galvanized pipe was used for 100 years on domestic water piping and the only issue was the exposed threaded joints rust.

Your recommending rubber hose ? People invest in expensive compressors , dryers air tools and create projects that cost money to create ... and you use a rubber hose to deliver the air ... I would not trust it when I crank my compressor up to 150 psi to blast ... my opinion.

Ron.
I guess you never replaced a galvanized water pipe in your house, I have..... all kidding aside you are exactly right on all accounts and I'm wrong. Feel better now?

Sorry but I have to go now, I'm using my compressor, nail gun and impact wrench with my rubber hose.
 

kams1973

ALLIANCE MEMBER
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Messages
1,572
Location
Amarillo, TX
Rust in galvanized pipe ? Galvanized pipe was used for 100 years on domestic water piping and the only issue was the exposed threaded joints rust.

Your recommending rubber hose ? People invest in expensive compressors , dryers air tools and create projects that cost money to create ... and you use a rubber hose to deliver the air ... I would not trust it when I crank my compressor up to 150 psi to blast ... my opinion.

You've got to be kidding about the rubber hose right? If a hose is good for 200-300psi, wtf do you not trust?
 

NHBandit

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 11, 2012
Messages
2,757
Location
East Tennessee
I suppose you could use an old garden hose if you want to. What I don't get is why someone would buy a compressor that might cost near or over $1000 and then try to save 40 bucks on the plumbing to run it.. Kinda like putting junkyard gas in your Ferrari if ya ask me but what do I know... Don't even get me started on the whole PVC issue. Yay for you that it hasn't blown up yet... I can throw a box of steak knives straight up in the air 5 times and maybe none of them will land point down & stick in my head.. but that dosn't make it sensible to risk it. Like lighting your cutting torch with a Bic lighter. I used to think people who swore against it were just paranoid until a local guy blew a hole in his leg bad enough that he blead to death.
 

Kevin C

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 4, 2011
Messages
1,653
Location
Portland OR
1: PVC loses strength very quickly as it gets warm.
2: Some compressor oils cause it to lose strength and develop cracks.

For fun put a drop of loctite on PVC and wait a couple of weeks (not on anything critical!!!!).

Since most compressed air will have traces of moisture and oil you will start to get weak areas as the oil attacks the plastic.

Over time it can / will cause a failure. The issue is how if fails (see attached).

http://www.jtdryers.com/uploads/PVC_Pipe.pdf
 
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plym49

Active member
Joined
Sep 11, 2008
Messages
32
Overall, gotta say yours words just don't have ANY TRUTH to them.

You sure seem to have all the answers. I'll tell you something, you have opened my eyes, and I thank you for that.

Next business I buy, I will spend more time analyzing the medical plan - certainly the pharmaceutical coverage.

:lol:
 

Ron Lombardo

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 20, 2006
Messages
393
Location
New York
" You've got to be kidding about the rubber hose right? If a hose is good for 200-300psi, wtf do you not trust? "

Please provide the specs and size of the air line your using ... and most probably its under sized and 300psi rated hose is probably more costly then copper.

The galvanized pipe in those pictures .. i will point out the handle of the valve is rusted .. which leads me to believe its the environment the piping is in and not the failure of the inside of the piping system ... also why would you use Galvanized in a Geo thermal system when they do make PEX which is the exact correct piping for that application ?
That pretty much sums up this entire argument ... people ask professionals what the correct pipe for the application ... and they use the alternate materials then put up an argument when it fails.
 

PhantomEB

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2006
Messages
6,697
Location
Medicine Hat, AB, Canuckistan
Gonna be running 3/4" copper around the perimeter of my shop, could get by with 1/2" but some extra air storage would be nice.... not that 3 runs of 24' of 1/2" wouldnt be enough along with the 80 gallon tank....
 

CNGsaves

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
13,233
Location
KS and OK
You sure seem to have all the answers. I'll tell you something, you have opened my eyes, and I thank you for that.

Next business I buy, I will spend more time analyzing the medical plan - certainly the pharmaceutical coverage.

Post up some pics when you get your PVC CAGE built around your entire desk area at these businesses you have, using the Scraps of PVC taken out of the employee areas!! :lol_hitti

That way that PVC will be within feet, or heck, how bout hanging your speakerphone just a couple inches from your head with that PVC cage so it will be nice and close for that 175psi under the flourescent lights along with getting direct sunlight. Could even build yourself (from those PVC scraps) a headrest that would put that PVC right where it needs to be!! :rocker:

Check if those pharmaceuticals can help you READ what's listed below??
 

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Donald Cook

Active member
Joined
Feb 16, 2012
Messages
44
Location
monee Ill
Unless you're running 2-3 tools at once, you don't need 3/4", in some climates copper will drip condensate a little more than black pipe unless it's insulated, this would not bother anything in my garage though.
 

sberry

Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Messages
35,747
Location
Brethren, Michigan
I got to agree with Donald,, every guy building a small garage figures he needs 200A service and large air mains. Its a lot easier using one size and the amount of hydrants tends to be over estimated. This can be a great place for a couple hoses, use the place, see how it works out, then pipe. Moist small garages can be well served by a fixed whip or 2 and a cord reel. I do not like hooking or unhooking hoses to a hot hydrant. In our shop there are never sections of hose added for common work, the only hot spot is between the coupler and the tool.

About 2 sections of pipe would do most garages, its not the same as electric where there is often gobs of permanently connected equipment.
 

plym49

Active member
Joined
Sep 11, 2008
Messages
32
Post up some pics when you get your PVC CAGE built around your entire desk area at these businesses you have, using the Scraps of PVC taken out of the employee areas!! :lol_hitti

That way that PVC will be within feet, or heck, how bout hanging your speakerphone just a couple inches from your head with that PVC cage so it will be nice and close for that 175psi under the flourescent lights along with getting direct sunlight. Could even build yourself (from those PVC scraps) a headrest that would put that PVC right where it needs to be!! :rocker:

Check if those pharmaceuticals can help you READ what's listed below??

You are one interesting dude, getting this worked up about pipe. Being insulting and nasty over a discussion topic --- what are you like on truly important issues?

News flash: different people look at the same information and reach different conclusions. It's called 'life'. There are few absolutes in this world.

You may think that your own version of the world is absolutely correct. Bluster wins you few friends. Do you think your insulting comments make you look cool? Try calmy and politely presenting your opinion. That's what forums like this are for.

The comment about pharmaceutical coverage was meant as sarcasm, in case Vitamin H would help.

Hope you find peace, my friend.
 

coljar

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 26, 2010
Messages
6,243
Location
Belpre, Ohio
Even though I am leaning towards stainless air lines in my new shop, if I decide not to, it will be black iron pipe. I've said it before, but the black iron pipe in my oldest shop next to my new shop has been in service for 84 years now along with the newest section, which is 67 years old. The Kellogg American compressor in that shop is also 67 years old, but I had to break down and buy a new tank last year. They just don't build stuff like they use to. Ha Ha!! Getting back to the air lines, will anyone on here care in 67 years if they need to replace their lines??
 

CNGsaves

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
13,233
Location
KS and OK
You are one interesting dude, getting this worked up about pipe. Being insulting and nasty over a discussion topic --- what are you like on truly important issues?

News flash: different people look at the same information and reach different conclusions. It's called 'life'. There are few absolutes in this world.

You may think that your own version of the world is absolutely correct. Bluster wins you few friends. Do you think your insulting comments make you look cool? Try calmy and politely presenting your opinion. That's what forums like this are for.

The comment about pharmaceutical coverage was meant as sarcasm, in case Vitamin H would help.

Guess you have Short Memory of what you've just posted.

1) Claim you've purchased several businesses ALL with PVC airline systems, AND you KNEW of Risk, but yet still subjected the employees to that risk - - - and you chastise people on GJ for discussing these IMPORTANT issues. All the while you chose to put in Galvanized Steel for your home system!!
2) Argue about safety of copper solder methods, yet you don't even bother putting in ANY kind of safe system for employees to use at these purported businesses you own

SOLUTION: Go ahead and post below the applicable business information for these PVC airline systems you've left in place for employees to deal with ; that way OSHA and local safety authorities will be sure to drop by and check them out:
NEED: Company name, Address, City, State, Phone Number
 
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NUTTSGT

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
50,864
Location
Northern Central Ohio
For the OP (who has probably left the building) if you are on a budget, I recommend buying your fittings a few at a time. Picking up a few here and there is alot easier to cough up the cash than a few hundred for all your fitting and ball valves. Once you have your fittings bought move on to purchasing your airlines.


When I switched my airlines from PVC to black pipe, it took me about 6 months here and there purchasing.
 

djjsr

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 4, 2006
Messages
4,796
Location
In the cornfields
You think you 2 guys could take your ******* contest out in the back alley? You're certainly not contributing anything here that anyone cares about.

(I assume one of you is an expert on ******* contests)
 

Vinko

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 7, 2008
Messages
5,829
Location
Los Angeles
.... Galvanized pipe is your best option. All Public and Government spec projects use it for Compressed Air lines ... we have installed it in the NYC Subway System and the NJ Transit for the Trains ... the list is long ... copper is too expensive and black pipe will rust inside ... its a myth that galvanized flakes on the inside.

We've had galv. for about 25 years without a hitch. As someone suggested, there are several threads about PVC. Perhaps fine for a home garage, but I believe there's a reason that OSHA doesn't allow it in a shop :scared:
 
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