Plumbing for air, input wanted.

[bkvanbek]

I have about a 3400sf garage, built with ICF walls, 12' ceiling and wood truss roof system. Unfinished, roughing in electrical and plumbing now.

I don't use a lot of air, but want to plumb the air lines in the walls and ceiling before we finish walls and ceiling. I want it ready for the future.

I have looked at Maxline and other specialty lines. The line is cheaper but the fittings are $25-$40 each. I compared a material cost for copper $505 and for Maxline $739. But now I am thinking about doubling the number of outlets.

So I am looking at type L copper; 20' of 1" from the compressor to a 190' 3/4" loop, four ceiling outlets (for maybe Robo-reels), an outside outlet and 2-3 other wall outlets. Sounds like solder should be 95/5.

Good plan?
Is the 1" and 3/4" sizing of the copper adequate?
Can I use 1/2" for the lines to the outlets, two will be about 20' long?
Robo-reels are 40'of 1/4", seems small hose to me?

 

[Heavymetalmechanic]

What do you plan on running off the air? Sandblasting? Sounds good to me for general use, but I can not comment on the plumbing specifics (type L, solder type), I'm not up to speed on plumbing.

 

[bkvanbek]

What do you plan on running off the air? Sandblasting? Sounds good to me for general use, but I can not comment on the plumbing specifics (type L, solder type), I'm not up to speed on plumbing.

I don't use a lot of air, but want to plumb the air lines in the walls and ceiling before we finish walls and ceiling. I want it ready for the future.

 

[Streetbu]

For what your needs are, 3/4" would be plenty, you could probably get away with 1/2" but if it were mine I'd go 3/4" that way if air tools are in your future, they will have enough volume.

 

[akdiesel]

Just one word of caution when covering airlines, and it may not be an issue with your little use of air. But when putting airlines in the walls, they are also in a sense insulated due to the insulation, tight space, and lack of air circulation. This will not allow the air to cool down properly and can also lead to condinsation build up on the outside of the pipes within the walls creating mold.
As for airlines in that size of shop 3/4" is more than enough. For air reels you will want to have the lines long enough to over lap the opposite reel at least 10 feet in length.

 

[Cyberbear]

The budget must be pretty healthy to afford copper lines, I applaud your efforts. For a small home shop with few users, I believe 1/2" pipe is adequate unless you are going to use a commercial pot type sand blaster. I have one of these commercial units and my biggest problem was adequate air reserve and my small a/c trying to keep up, not the dia. of the line, which for me was 1/2" galv. steel water pipe, and never a problem in 37 years.
The last company I worked in used galv. pipe that was used all day long 5 days a week for many years as a multi bay fork lift repair facility, and they had a very large and tall paint booth, as well.

 

[csp]

How are you finishing the walls?

I'm not sure if you're adding framing to the ICFs that the air lines will be covered by or actually putting them inside the ICFs before the concrete is poured (which I wouldn't do).

 

[Notgrownup]

I only have a 24x24 but I ordered a 1/2" rapid air system with 100' of line from Northern tool...will be plenty ....I will have a reel close to the compressor Bogor heavy duty jobs...

 

[pcmeiners]

Friction losses in piping....

http://www.freecalc.com/gasfram.htm

 

[CNGsaves]

OP . . . your plan with copper sounds terrific !!
Stay with sizes you wanted, and the loop is excellent.

You might want to check out idea of franzinator that would help grab any moisture before it ever got to the airline system. Also, the Alan Camby intercooler thread is primo excellente !! These are passive piping methods of capturing moisture early.

Google prior GJ threads as the preferred solder and copper pipe has been covered and innovative serpentine cooling setup by Tim The Tool Man. Thus, the idea is capture water Early and Often before it goes very far in airline system.
So Google this:
. . . copper airline site:garagejournal.com

Once you read through all those prior threads, post back with any specific questions that conflict in any way with your copper airline plan. I do recall a couple nice examples of copper in wall.

Good vibration isolator is 3 ft hydraulic hose from Tractor Supply - - - 3/4" is around $25 which would connect compressor tank to airline system.

Another must have is automatic drain on your compressor tank that dumps moisture automatically.

Only addition might be one drop that is MEGA drop if you have plans for a sand blaster. Just go overkill on that one and keep it same size as main line of airline system. Typical general use drops of 1/2" will be fine otherwise.

Have fun building the shop your way, and post up pics once things get underway. Good luck.

 

[Scsmith42]

I prefer at least 3/8" hose on my reels, and 1/2" is even better.


Scott

 

[RonRock]

I have about a 3400sf garage, built with ICF walls, 12' ceiling and wood truss roof system. Unfinished, roughing in electrical and plumbing now.

I don't use a lot of air, but want to plumb the air lines in the walls and ceiling before we finish walls and ceiling. I want it ready for the future.

I have looked at Maxline and other specialty lines. The line is cheaper but the fittings are $25-$40 each. I compared a material cost for copper $505 and for Maxline $739. But now I am thinking about doubling the number of outlets.

So I am looking at type L copper; 20' of 1" from the compressor to a 190' 3/4" loop, four ceiling outlets (for maybe Robo-reels), an outside outlet and 2-3 other wall outlets. Sounds like solder should be 95/5.

Good plan?
Is the 1" and 3/4" sizing of the copper adequate?
Can I use 1/2" for the lines to the outlets, two will be about 20' long?
Robo-reels are 40'of 1/4", seems small hose to me?

Just what I am working on now in my shop. I did as you plan, although I do not have the room for 20' of 1". I only have 10' of 1" then went to 3/4" loop with 1/2" drops. I made sure to come off the top of the loop for the drops and ran the loop with a grade dropping to the farthest away corner.

I also decided to use copper type L. Probably the most expensive choice of material for an air line system. But I had my reasons. A couple important ones for me is the lack of threads in the system, and the ability to do future changes fairly easily.

I figure I'll get the system up and working then see if condensation is an issue. If so I'll add something like a "Franzinator" at that time. It will come off the compressor anyway nothing to do with the loop.

 

[sberry]

This gets twisted more than almost any other type of utility. You don't need a "mega" drop for a common sandblaster and adding "more" outlets is a waste and 99.5% of the worlds compressed air goes thru 3/8 hose at the end. A couple well placed reels and a fixed whip or 2 will cover 3400 ft of work space. A couple outlets for thwe first 1K sq ft and another for each additional thousand.
A little bigger pipe doesn't hurt but 1/2 is fine for a system like this and till you get to multiple men with comps a minimum of 7.5 size is pretty much irrelevant after this especially if this is not a class 8 truck shop.
My personal fave is 1/2 black pipe and I am not nuts about air in walls. Itsd not a real bad thing but one tends to find out they put 2x as many needed in a spot and none in a place they really want.
This is a road I have been down several times and what I find is that the vision I had when I started doesn't always match the outcome and placement is critical and difficult to anticipate. What I tend to do is, hook the thing up, string a couple 3.8 hoses to a regulator and a hose reel. Work a bit and move, when you get the logistics figured out as simple as it can be run a couple pieces of pipe.
3400 ft is pretty respectable and no reason to leave money or pipe parked behind walls, once set up you will find you use certain hydrants and none on the rest. You can probably plumb this whole building with not too much more than 100 ft and a couple reels and take the temp hoses and turn them in to fixed whips or extensions to reach outside.

 

[sberry]

The budget must be pretty healthy to afford copper lines, I applaud your efforts. For a small home shop with few users, I believe 1/2" pipe is adequate unless you are going to use a commercial pot type sand blaster. I have one of these commercial units and my biggest problem was adequate air reserve and my small a/c trying to keep up, not the dia. of the line, which for me was 1/2" galv. steel water pipe, and never a problem in 37 years.
The last company I worked in used galv. pipe that was used all day long 5 days a week for many years as a multi bay fork lift repair facility, and they had a very large and tall paint booth, as well.

This is pretty accurate. The size of the line continues to grow with each new thread. Its being hooked to compressors that make only 1/4 the air and a 3/8 hose will drain them faster than they will recover especially sandblast.
BTW, someone had posted a better air drop chart. But with a 2 stage system and 100 ft of 1/2 pipe there is about 1# loss using a 1/2 impact and about 10 or so down 3/8 50 ft of hose. The main isn't much of a factor.
I cover 4K with basically 4 hoses, 2 on reels and a couple drops, one at the hoist and one for my bench and have total overlap.

 

[bkvanbek]

How are you finishing the walls?

I'm not sure if you're adding framing to the ICFs that the air lines will be covered by or actually putting them inside the ICFs before the concrete is poured (which I wouldn't do).

The walls and roof are up, so the piping will go in the eps foam, therefore completely insulated. Stucco finish inside and out. In the attic I could go above the insulation, but here in MN it might be a bad idea. But in the insulation the air will not cool and condensate well.

I figured about $650 to rough in this plumbing.

 

[Streetbu]

One of the main reasons I used 3/4" pipe was to increase my capacity. Even with 3/8" hoses most people including me use 1/4" quick connects. I only have a 60 gallon 3 cylinder but with my blast cabinet going full tilt my compressor will kick on and struggle a little but still be able to produce more than I'm using and be able to shut off. Plus if I ever want or need to upgrade the lines will be able to handle it. The difference in price between 1/2 & 3/4 for me was only about $50 so in my case it was worth it.

 

[RickP]

The walls and roof are up, so the piping will go in the eps foam, therefore completely insulated. Stucco finish inside and out. In the attic I could go above the insulation, but here in MN it might be a bad idea. But in the insulation the air will not cool and condensate well.

I figured about $650 to rough in this plumbing.

I think your installation is a special case because your pipes are all going to be encased in foam. The only reason to go with copper is for the cooling it provides, but you're not going to get that benefit, so why go to all that trouble with the installation? Your system is only going to get cooling from whatever you install next to the compressor, before the pipe goes into the wall.

IMO, you should go for easy installation - something like a RapidAir tubing kit. I've installed one behind drywall to get air to my basement and their product info says that it will provide plenty of air for your needs. Install it in a loop with a big inlet pipe if you think you'll need additional air. It is so easy to install it's almost ridiculous. Also, with your plan to bury it in the insulation, you might be able to use curves instead of 90 degree elbows, so you could eliminate all fittings buried in the walls.

 

[sberry]

The amount of heat radiating from this pipe is going to be rather minor and unless this unit is running continuous irrelevant. There likely isn't much reason you couldn't run it in the attic, the pipe will conduct a little heat away from the building like any metal that goes from warm to cold. It isn't going to get condensate on the outside in the wall though.

Is the 1" and 3/4" sizing of the copper adequate?

Its 2 sizes above adequate. Its like saying, I am going to run a 20A circuit to run a circ saw 50 ft, I will use number 8 for voltage drop.

 

[CNGsaves]

OP . . . stick to your plan. A quality in-wall copper airline sytem is LIFETIME system. And if your mainline is little oversized, that won't hurt a thing. Copper is way tougher than the quick-and-dirty RapidAir . . (don't fall into trap of dumbing down your plan). Build it once, and built it right !!

Good luck and make it work for how you plan on using the shop. Pretty sure Tim The Tool Man has in-wall copper. Used GJ Advanced Search to find his pictures:
. . . Search text: copper in wall . . . . . Username: Tim The Tool Man

 

[Prototyper]

The only reason to go with copper is for the cooling it provides, but you're not going to get that benefit, so why go to all that trouble with the installation? Your system is only going to get cooling from whatever you install next to the compressor, before the pipe goes into the wall.

I have to disagree with you there. Copper is a fantastic system to use for air. It is easy to work with, moderate price, has smooth bore and swept elbows for laminar flow, sweated joints don't leak, and most importantly never rusts or contaminates the air.

I don't mention cooling of the air as a benefit, as you should really cool/dry/filter the air before distributing it. The receiver tank provides the vast majority of cooling, hence why an auto drain is a must. Coolers, refrigerated dryers, particulate and coalescing filters can be applied as needed.

 

[RickP]

Prototyper - you left out the first sentence in my post, which explains that I'm only talking about the OP's special case:

I think your installation is a special case because your pipes are all going to be encased in foam. The only reason to go with copper is for the cooling it provides, but you're not going to get that benefit, so why go to all that trouble with the installation? Your system is only going to get cooling from whatever you install next to the compressor, before the pipe goes into the wall.

I'm actually planning a full installation of black pipe in my garage, but it's a lot of work, so it's pretty far down on my project list right now. I just can't imagine doing a full copper install, and then encasing it in insulation...

For surface mount in my garage, I actually like the idea of copper for all the reasons you mentioned. I ended up choosing black pipe instead, but that's a subject for another thread.

 

[RickP]

Good luck and make it work for how you plan on using the shop. Pretty sure Tim The Tool Man has in-wall copper. Used GJ Advanced Search to find his pictures:
. . . Search text: copper in wall . . . . . Username: Tim The Tool Man

Tim has a really nice set up in his shop - now I've got air line envy!
But his pipes aren't encased in foam - and I think he solders an awful lot of copper pipe... Tim's installation would be a huge amount of work for many people. I'm actually planning to install black pipe, so I know I'm in for a lot of work too.

But for the OP, who's planning to encase the pipe in foam, it's going to be even more work because all the joints will have to be soldered away from the foam. I wouldn't trust a simple metal heat shield like I'd use in a wooden joist pocket. Also, what's the point of having drip legs at each outlet if the pipe itself gets hot and stays hot because of the foam around it? I think he'll need to use a dryer or franzinator setup at the compressor to have any hope of having dry air. If the air is already dry, and the pipe is going in foam, why do all that extra work for copper? It's like pex vs. copper for water pipes - sure copper is stronger, but in this case if the air tubing is going into foam, why not go for an easy installation?

Two RapidAir 1/2 inch kits would be under $200, even with some extra fittings. And a bigger tube size system could probably be done for about the price of copper or a little more. The big difference is the installation labor - the kits could be installed in less than a day. I have no idea how long it would take to install 200 feet of copper, plus several drops, but it's got to be at least a few days. In this special case, I really think a tubing kit would be the best option.

 

[CNGsaves]

OP will need to assemble the bulk of copper airline system OFF the wall . . . it setup an assembly down on the ground in sections. There will be only a handful of "on wall" copper sweat joints if he plans it out well.

Also, foam insulation of OP will be installed AFTER the copper airline system is already installed and tested not to leak !!

He is not re-inventing the wheel. Lots of shops have in-wall airline systems.

 

[RickP]

I have about a 3400sf garage, built with ICF walls, 12' ceiling and wood truss roof system. Unfinished, roughing in electrical and plumbing now.

The walls and roof are up, so the piping will go in the eps foam, therefore completely insulated. Stucco finish inside and out.

I think the foam's already there (in the forms)? So installing anything in the foam is definitely not going to be a standard bare stud rough-in job.

 

[bkvanbek]

The EPS foam is there, I will carve it out for the copper, and urethane foam over them to hold them in place and to cover with synthetic stucco. I will sweat the wall drops ahead of time and then just sweat them at the top of the wall.

I want it to be ready for professional use. I only occasionally us an air tool, but I may want to sell the place and it would be great for a car guy. I also want a clean, in wall installation.

Rapid air just did not seam like the product for me, Maxline was better but the $25 "T"s and even more for the outlets, just drove the price up too much. The first plan I had, put copper at $505 and Maxline at $739 for materials and that was not a loop and only four outlets.

I would like to use plastic, I use PEX for all my potable water, home run system too. Too bad PEX can't take the pressure, because I love the stuff.
I discounted black pipe because of rust, I would also rather sweat pipes then thread, besides I can't cut threads myself

How high off the floor should I have the outlets?

 

[fury9]

My hose reel is mounted to the floor (actual outlet for hose is about 18" up) under my workbench right in front center of garage . My only other outlet is at about 4' with a quick connect on it for the use of whatever? I haven't used it yet. I only have the average garage though.

 

[RickP]

Rapid air just did not seam like the product for me, Maxline was better but the $25 "T"s and even more for the outlets, just drove the price up too much. The first plan I had, put copper at $505 and Maxline at $739 for materials and that was not a loop and only four outlets.

I would like to use plastic, I use PEX for all my potable water, home run system too. Too bad PEX can't take the pressure, because I love the stuff.
I discounted black pipe because of rust, I would also rather sweat pipes then thread, besides I can't cut threads myself

How high off the floor should I have the outlets?

Gotcha. Copper will work well for you - it's just a lot of work. It really is too bad you can't figure out a way to install plastic, since you seem to prefer it. Could you make your own system? (buy bulk rolls and install all home runs with no fittings in the walls)

Anyway, good luck with your installation, no matter which way you decide to go. I put my air outlets at 4' off the floor - the same height as the electrical outlets in the garage. I'd also recommend adding a couple air outlets in the ceiling near the walls for hose reels.

 

[CNGsaves]

Gotcha. Copper will work well for you - it's just a lot of work. It really is too bad you can't figure out a way to install plastic, since you seem to prefer it. Could you make your own system? (buy bulk rolls and install all home runs with no fittings in the walls).

No . . . no plastic . . . . ever, never, ever.

One stray nail and all that work to install lifetime in-wall airline system wasted.

There IS reason copper and black pipe steel have been airline systems for 100 years . . . . they WORK and are strong.

 

[Notgrownup]

What about the copper push fit fittings? I saw those yesterday at lowes. Anybody use them?

 

[RickP]

I'm not sure if you're talking about Shark Bite fittings? "Tim the Tool Man" really hates those fittings because they have a rubber O-ring inside, which will eventually fail.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

But when putting airlines in the walls, they are also in a sense insulated due to the insulation, tight space, and lack of air circulation. This will not allow the air to cool down properly and can also lead to condinsation build up on the outside of the pipes within the walls creating mold.

That is 100% reversed. Uninsulated surfaces that are cooler than the surrounding air will cause condensation, not warmer, insulated ones. There will be no external moisture issue. The issue will be entrailed moisture in the system due to lack of cooling/draining.

Tommy

 

[RickP]

No . . . no plastic . . . . ever, never, ever.

One stray nail and all that work to install lifetime in-wall airline system wasted.

There IS reason copper and black pipe steel have been airline systems for 100 years . . . . they WORK and are strong.

I know what you mean - I thought about using nail plates to protect the tubing where it's near the drywall in my garage. For me, being able to pull the tubing through the joist pocket and wall to the basement was worth the risk for this one run. Fixing a puncture behind drywall isn't that hard.

I wonder how a Pex water system is protected from stray nails? Those are installed in houses all the time these days. I've never worked with ICF walls, but I wouldn't think there'd be stray nails anywhere, because they wouldn't have any holding power in the foam.

 

[CNGsaves]

What about the copper push fit fittings? I saw those yesterday at lowes. Anybody use them?

Those push-to-fit / shark bite are for WATER uses of copper, and quite expensive as compared to normal copper fittings. For accessible locations (ie exposed where you can easily reach), push-to-fit work for water plumbing of copper and handy for DIY homeowner. Don't think a legit plumber should be using them, unless emergency repair.

Never heard of anyone trying them for AIR line system, because they weren't meant for airline uses. Let's SEE some working examples if GJer's have implemented push-to-fit for a copper airline system. Any out there ??

 

[csp]

I have sharkbites where my line transitions from copper to hydraulic hoses at air reels, where it connects to the compressor, etc.

CNGsaves there are lots of things you haven't seen or heard of. I'm quite sure of that based on some the stuff you post here. A nail can go through a copper line just as easily BTW.

 

[bkvanbek]

So I did the air plumbing as described in my original question, but with 8 drops of 1/2" with 1/2" ball valves, FIP. So for couplers I hate to go with 1/4" . I also did not know there are different types of couplers, industrial, automotive.

What couplers to use? Where to get them?

 

[RonRock]

Take a look at Milton.

https://www.miltonindustries.com/

Their products should be available locally. If not you can find them online.

I use and I would assume a large percentage of the members here also use the "Type M" fittings. Although they are actually 1/4" ID. They do make various size coupler fittings. Making it easy enough to plumb for the size you need.

 

[slodat]

I second the vote for Milton. I have an order of 3/8 NPT quick disconnects and 3/8-1/2 arriving from Tool Source tomorrow. I've bought a lot of Milton from Tool Source. Can't beat their prices!

 

[94EG8]

Those push-to-fit / shark bite are for WATER uses of copper, and quite expensive as compared to normal copper fittings.
Never heard of anyone trying them for AIR line system, because they weren't meant for airline uses. Let's SEE some working examples if GJer's have implemented push-to-fit for a copper airline system. Any out there ??

I've used them. I bought some Topring Quickline (Blue Aluminum pipe) and it uses a variation of them. When I added more line I used Sharkbite fittings since they're about 1/3 of the cost of the proper fittings and they're rated for more pressure.

for couplers I hate to go with 1/4" . I also did not know there are different types of couplers, industrial, automotive.

What couplers to use? Where to get them?

I use 3/8 "H" style. They flow a lot better than the 1/4 "A" style most shops use. I've used Milton before, but they're junk. They wear out quickly and start leaking. Go to industrial supply place and see what they have. I think most of the ones I have are made by Topring.

 

[slodat]

My experience with Milton is different. High quality American made. This link explains a lot about fittings. Worth checking out.

https://nebula.wsimg.com/82cd3b425a...B3EA65AF31FEFB0B6&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

Air shows a typical 1/4" A fitting flows more air than any home shop single air tool will use.

 

[PhantomEB]

I hate long lines of cord or hose so my plans will be perimeter loop in 3/4" copper with water drops in the corners of my 24x24. Outlets every 4-6 ft, air reels beside the bench at hard wall and another besides the big door to do work outside.