Plumbing with pex

[Sumboodie]

Pro pex (expander style) or crimp?

I'm told if I do crimp, generally need to upsize the pipe, especially if there's more than a few fittings.

I'm redoing my shop apartment, they plumbed it with 1/2" crimp style. If the washer is taking water, it's almost a trickle at the faucet.
That's with 50-70psi on the well pump too.

It's not overly complicated or many fixtures or feet of pipe so material cost wouldn't matter much better the two.

May use pex for airline later, and MAYBE plumb a future house in a few years though.

 

[kbeefy]

Are they on the same branch?
If so it might be easiest to just add a dedicated branch for the faucet, instead of replumbing the whole place.

I've only used crimp, so I have no input re: expanding connections.

 

[Sumboodie]

Are they on the same branch?
If so it might be easiest to just add a dedicated branch for the faucet, instead of replumbing the whole place.

I've only used crimp, so I have no input re: expanding connections.

There's just a pair of 1/2" lines (hot and cold) that runs from the well tank and boiler, haphazardly along the middle of the wall and to the bathroom sink, toilet, kitchen sink, washing machine, shower and another bathroom sink.

There's enough flow if only one thing is going at once, but run 2 sinks and it's barely flowing. Was told it should be at least 5/8", if not 3/4"

I'm going to pull out what I can, and run it either along the top of the wall or upstairs by the floor (storage)

 

[charbar]

I'm no plumber but I've always used 3/4 on all the cold lines at least. Gotta be careful on long runs for the hot water though (depending on intended use) as it can take a LONG time to get hot water. Just in my shop I have probably ~25 ft from my water heater to a sink and hose bibb. I ran 1/2" the whole way for the hot water and 3/4 for the cold to the hose bib, then 1/2" off of there for about 4 ft. to the sinks cold side. I get hot water pretty fast, but the cold side easily puts out twice the amount of water as the hot side.

 

[billconner]

I am no expert but limit 1/2" to usually only 2 fixture/appliances. Maybe 3 if a short run. I go to 3/4" for more. I might cheat on a hose bib since we use them so infrequently. You've got six on a half inch. Maybe run a parallel 1/2" to three. So much depends on details, cutting and patching, drilling, etc.

 

[kbeefy]

For any plumber that responds, would adding a 1/2 line from the source to the furthest faucet/appliance benefit? Or maybe 3/4?
Making a full loop? I know it can help with air lines...

 

[Kaizen]

The size of the pex won't matter imo as you are limited to the pressure from your well pump. Adding larger pipe is no guarantee of better flow. I use the crimp as the expander tool is expensive. Never had an issue with a leak on any pex i've run.
Its so cheap per foot that running dedicated runs from a manifold at the supply is a good idea and will probably help in your situation.

 

[Sumboodie]

The size of the pex won't matter imo as you are limited to the pressure from your well pump. Adding larger pipe is no guarantee of better flow. I use the crimp as the expander tool is expensive. Never had an issue with a leak on any pex i've run.
Its so cheap per foot that running dedicated runs from a manifold at the supply is a good idea and will probably help in your situation.

Expander is about $120.

 

[Jackfre]

I have the Milwaukee M12 expander. I had the manual expander and yes, it does the job, but you have to be Godzilla in Heat to power that thing. Not so bad on 1/2 but the 3/4” I had to be able to get right on top of. If it is a position joint I really struggled. The M12 makes it a snap and the job goes quickly. I gave the manual tool to a friend and hee curses me every time he sees me. Probably for more than one reason, but there you go. I use as few fittings as possible preferring the long sweep supports for the 90’s. A 1/2 fitting is about 5/16 ID so don’t line them up. You all ready know the 1/2” is barely functioning so run 3/4 or 1”. Build for the future.

 

[readhead]

With PEX B the fittings are way under sized. A 1/2” fitting is less than 3/8” which makes for some bad restrictions. That is why most pros suggest going up a size to maintain enough flow.

 

[fitter30]

If you look pex fitting, valves and id of the tubing compare them to copper. Larger the id less pressure drop.

 

[Sumboodie]

I have the Milwaukee M12 expander. I had the manual expander and yes, it does the job, but you have to be Godzilla in Heat to power that thing. Not so bad on 1/2 but the 3/4” I had to be able to get right on top of. If it is a position joint I really struggled. The M12 makes it a snap and the job goes quickly. I gave the manual tool to a friend and hee curses me every time he sees me. Probably for more than one reason, but there you go. I use as few fittings as possible preferring the long sweep supports for the 90’s. A 1/2 fitting is about 5/16 ID so don’t line them up. You all ready know the 1/2” is barely functioning so run 3/4 or 1”. Build for the future.

Thanks, I was considering buying the manual one.

I need to get surgery on my arm, carpal tunnel issues, so probably would play hell on that. Some days even running equipment or shifting gears in a truck is painful.

The apartment is "temporary" until a house is built, though that may be 4-5+ years, all depending on costs.

 

[Sumboodie]

Ouch, that M12 expander is almost $500!

Yeah... probably not going that route!

 

[Theruse]

When I priced the Milwaukee M12 Expander I contacted six tool rental places and none of them rent one. I only need to use it for 7 connections in my garage. I can do with the $20 crimper I used on one sink line. Too bad since there are these nice chrome covers for the Pex than only work with the expander.

 

[Jackfre]

I broke my hand last Aug and that triggered a carpal tunnel issue with the hand. I understand your pain and think you will have great difficulty with the manual tool. I see the “Tool Only“ price of $239 at HD. I didn’t check the die price. I’m pretty far down the Milwaukee M12 & 18 rabbit-hole so have batteries for other tools and buy the tool onlys on occasion. I’d buy the tool and sell it after you finish the job.

 

[yatg]

I’d buy the tool and sell it after you finish the job.

The job is never done.

 

[Showkey]

No way as a casual DIY guy would I get into PEX A.

If there are flow problems with PEX B it’s a system design problem.

PEX Supply Water Piping - Free Knowledge Base- The DUCK Project: information for everyone

wiki.robotz.com

 

[mejhaha]

Another vote for PEX A - I have used both crimp and clamp B fittings, and borrowed a PEX A manual expander before buying the Dewalt expander which is slightly more affordable than Milwaukee as a "tool only" buy. Life is much easier with the dewalt tool and PEX A for any plumbing projects.

IMHO if you have a project now where you will need it and you will be building a house in the future it will certainly be useful. I bet you will find other projects to use it on.

 

[Angelfire]

Ouch, that M12 expander is almost $500!

Yeah... probably not going that route!

I saw the kit available for $359 at Coastaltool.com Not sure if that makes it a bit more palatable for you. It's not the fuel version but might work for you.

 

[Kaizen]

Ouch, that M12 expander is almost $500!

Yeah... probably not going that route!

like i said. personally for household use i didnt see the need. def the way to go for a pro though or if you had several jobs lined up.

 

[Renegade1LI]

I have to look but I think I paid 299$ for the m12 kit at HD last year.I anted the dewalt but it was out of stock, once you use it you will never look back.

 

[Shocker]

I found a brand new M12 Pex expander tool on sale for $300 a few years ago. It has been invaluable really. Not only can you expand the Pex A and rings, I have used it for other soft hoses to replace fitting etc.

 

[Sumboodie]

Is Pex A stuff available at Lowes and what not? I've not shopped around and I'm 700 miles from Lowes right now.

 

[Sumboodie]

I saw the kit available for $359 at Coastaltool.com Not sure if that makes it a bit more palatable for you. It's not the fuel version but might work for you.

I think I hate you. A guy could spend a few grand on there way too easily!

 

[4x4Pete]

Is Pex A stuff available at Lowes and what not? I've not shopped around and I'm 700 miles from Lowes right now.

In Canada it's available at HD and Lowe's not a great variety though. Threaded adapters seem to be the hardest to get. Big plumbing suppliers have everything. If you're regularly 700 miles from a decent pex A supplier you might just as well use pex B.

 

[Sumboodie]

In Canada it's available at HD and Lowe's not a great variety though. Threaded adapters seem to be the hardest to get. Big plumbing suppliers have everything. If you're regularly 700 miles from a decent pex A supplier you might just as well use pex B.

I'm at work. Fly out to Alaska north slope, stay for 3 weeks, then fly home and there for 3 weeks.

Ordered the kit from Coastal Tool. With the shipping it was about $390, though they said if it happened to fit in a flat rate the shipping would be a bit less.

I have a PEX crimper, but the fittings really reduce the flow. I got it because it was cheap when I added an outdoor faucet in my house. I just had 1 90* in that run though and it was maybe 10ft total too.

The shop apartment has quite a few fittings. They did away with using some by making giant loops, like for the water filter. Yeah....
I'm going to pull it all out and fix it to the best of my ability.
It'd be stupid to burn up a well pump or barely be able to wash my hands after flushing the toilet just over saying a few hundred $$s.

 

[Sumboodie]

So with the expander pex fittings, is 5/8" large enough, or still should use 3/4" for the main run?

In my old house, the water piping was 1" copper until it converted to pex somewhere in teh wall, not sure the size they used for that

 

[readhead]

There is no 5/8”. That happens to be the outside diameter of 1/2” cu, pex and CPVC.
PEX A & B are available in 3/8, 1/2, 3/4, 1 and 1 1/4 at most supply houses and I believe some larger sizes also. The smaller sizes of B are available at most box stores.
If you do go with A and you run out of fittings you can substitute B fittings and crimp rings in a pinch and change them out later. The pipe is the same size.

 

[Sumboodie]

There is no 5/8”. That happens to be the outside diameter of 1/2” cu, pex and CPVC.
PEX A & B are available in 3/8, 1/2, 3/4, 1 and 1 1/4 at most supply houses and I believe some larger sizes also. The smaller sizes of B are available at most box stores.
If you do go with A and you run out of fittings you can substitute B fittings and crimp rings in a pinch and change them out later. The pipe is the same size.

Thanks.

Not sure where I even got the idea there was 5/8".

 

[readhead]

The advantage of A is that the fittings do not restrict flow. The tubing is more flexible and if it kinks it can be restored with a heat gun.

 

[crazylunker]

what is your pressure? I wouldnt jump to repiping before checking feed valves for a restriction. if you have at least 50 psi a couple sinks should be fine. I would remove any valves that feed the entire system and physically check for a restriction and not just assume the valve is open.

 

[yatg]

Thanks.

Not sure where I even got the idea there was 5/8".

5/8 pex for radiant heating

Buy 5/8" X 1000 Feet PEX with Oxygen Barrier Tubing - Radiant for only $335.95

Order 5/8" X 1000 ft PEX with Oxygen Barrier Tubing - Radiant for $340.95

www.pexsuperstore.com

 

[readhead]

It’s labeled as 5/8” by some companies so it isn’t confused with regular PEX. It is 1/2” and is for heating systems, not domestic water use.
Normal PEX is oxygen permeable allowing very small amounts into the system which can cause rust and corrosion in pumps and other components. Oxygen barrier PEX stops the problem.

 

[rooster59]

Pex B should work fine, but it’s best not to repipe just like copper with lots of 90’s, T’s, many fixtures off the same 1/2 in line. I’ve never had any problems with pex crimp 3/4 supply to manifold, then direct 1/2 to fixtures. There are brackets to make 90’s vs cut and crimp in elbows. Sink + shower + toilet + washer off same 1/2 line won’t be optimal.

 

[Sumboodie]

Pex B should work fine, but it’s best not to repipe just like copper with lots of 90’s, T’s, many fixtures off the same 1/2 in line. I’ve never had any problems with pex crimp 3/4 supply to manifold, then direct 1/2 to fixtures. There are brackets to make 90’s vs cut and crimp in elbows. Sink + shower + toilet + washer off same 1/2 line won’t be optimal.

It's going to have 90*s to fit tightly against the wall. Inside a wall wouldn't be a problem, but I'm not running water lines in an exterior wall.

 

[Kezorm]

It’s labeled as 5/8” by some companies so it isn’t confused with regular PEX. It is 1/2” and is for heating systems, not domestic water use.

Not true. 5/8" PEX is certainly a thing, not just relabeled 1/2". It's just not commonly used.
e.g. https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.supplyhouse.com/product_files/Uponor-F1060625-SubmittalSheet.pdf

 

[readhead]

I called one of my local plumbing supply houses and they said it is sometimes available as a special order but they don't stock the pipe or the fittings. He couldn't remember the last time they sold any. It is interesting that in the tech data they don't list it but it is listed in the product list. I stand corrected. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

 

[slimpickins]

I prefer using the manifolds and home run everything. This job is not quite done but they make for a neat installation.
It has always worked great for me. In this install, I didn't have the proper clamps at the time so I used galvanized EMT clamps to hold the manifold down. Note the blue electrical tape used to prevent copper to galvanized contact. This is in a rental house with two kitchens, two and a half baths, laundry, and an outdoor faucet. I used an 8 port manifold for the cold and 6 port for the hot. This left one cold port left over. There are no fittings in the hot lines, and the cold lines are tee'd for to supply cold for toilet and sink together. The dishwasher is tee'd to the kitchen sink hot. Bathtubs each get a separate line, as does the laundry.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Pro pex (expander style) or crimp?

I'm told if I do crimp, generally need to upsize the pipe, especially if there's more than a few fittings.

Pro PEX requires a special type of PEX. Probably not cost effective for DIY.

The crimp type does not matter. Fitting (elbows) do ! Use 3/4 as much as possible. Use the reinforcing corner braces instead of elbows wherever you can.

 

[KenC]

I prefer using the manifolds and home run everything. This job is not quite done but they make for a neat installation.
It has always worked great for me. In this install, I didn't have the proper clamps at the time so I used galvanized EMT clamps to hold the manifold down. Note the blue electrical tape used to prevent copper to galvanized contact. This is in a rental house with two kitchens, two and a half baths, laundry, and an outdoor faucet. I used an 8 port manifold for the cold and 6 port for the hot. This left one cold port left over. There are no fittings in the hot lines, and the cold lines are tee'd for to supply cold for toilet and sink together. The dishwasher is tee'd to the kitchen sink hot. Bathtubs each get a separate line, as does the laundry.

Perfect! 3/4 feed to manifolds and only 1 device per 1/2 terminus.