Pole vs stick 20ft sidewalls

[wrestlsimp]

Needing input. I am looking to build a shop 25x45ft with 20 ft sidewalls. Half of which will split into an upper and lower level 20x25, the other half (weight room on bottom, loft right above. The other half will be 20 ft high walls used for climbing rope and climbing walls. I plan to insulate eventually. Eventually want it fully insulated and concrete floors (no vehicle ever parked in it.
So, what would be the cheaper option, stick or pole? If pole, I know I'd have to frame for easy installation and also framed for some of posting up of walls for climbing. But I will need an engineer which could be $300-500.

Any input would be greatly appreciated. Most of what I've seen on forum is for 12-14ft sidewalls. Haven't seen much showing advantages of one or the other when building this tall.

Ultimately someone else will be building for me, just trying to figure what would be best option.

Any input is greatly appreciated!

 

[Toomanytools?]

Pole building would most likely be cheaper to build. Think you will need an engineer to stamp either build at 20' height.

 

[Highbeam]

Those will be some tall poles and the wind loads will require some very hefty poles. For comparison, my pole building is 14' tall on the eves and my wind load is 115 mph. The poles had to be true 6x8 number 1 doug fir in concrete and with knee braces.

Have you considered the steel buildings? Structural steel frames are very strong and allow for tall buildings.

 

[wrestlsimp]

Have you considered the steel buildings? Structural steel frames are very strong and allow for tall buildings.

I've thought about steel, but wouldn't it cost more to have to have it insulated and frame the sides? I'd have to frame the sides so I have something to attach the climbing walls onto.

I've had some input on a monolithic pad vs foundation with stem walls. I know a foundation would cost 2-3k more, but I can't get a straight answer on if I can get a monolithic pad with high sidewalls. To get my answer, I may need to go to an engineer, but if the cost changes that much maybe a pole building would be better, and then the cost for the engineer to stamp things is a waste of money.

 

[barks]

There's a couple of reasons to deal with an engineer, including advice on codes/permitting, structural issues with the foundation, structural issues with the loadings on the roof, issues of loadings on mezzanines, perhaps some ideas as to cost of various approaches, etc. In the end, the cost of this knowledge from an engineer is not expensive as a part of a building this size..

 

[56rpm]

Yes, you will need to get it engineered. If the someone else is the contractor, he should bid it out for you. If you are the general contractor, get bids from the subs, the bids are free.

 

[camarotoolman]

Metal studs might be the way to go. Long wood framing members are too bowed and crocked to up in that tall of building.

 

[wrestlsimp]

Metal studs might be the way to go. Long wood framing members are too bowed and crocked to up in that tall of building.

Steel seems a lot more expensive and harder to insulate. Wouldn't I have to re-frame the sides with wood to be able to attach things to wall such as 2x6's for climbing wall?

I'm also considering dropping down the sidewalls to closer to 17-18ft, possibly 16ft, but need the room below to be 9ft at the smallest, and if loft above not sure height, but with a floor between, doesn't leave much room. What is an acceptable height for a loft, maybe theater room?

 

[ForceFed70]

In my area, anything over 12' wall needs to be engineered.

I went exactly 12'

 

[wrestlsimp]

In my area, anything over 12' wall needs to be engineered.

I went exactly 12'

I would love to stick to just 12', but doing 2 stories with only 12' would just not work.

 

[Gruve]

I went stick.

 

[Dustoff 35]

Sidewalls for the basketball side of my garage are 19 feet, plus or minus a few inches. It is 2 x 6 framed construction, on stem walls.

If you go with framed 2 x 6 construction to begin with, you can screw your plywood for the climbing wall directly to the framing.

 

[NUTTSGT]

I think you would need something special as far as the framing goes for the climbing rope and walls. While a normal wall could easily support the weight of a person, that wouldn't bother me. It would be the constant bouncing of a person climbing up the wall or the hanging off a rope off one truss ? Will you be mounting any type of pulley system to use climbing ropes for safety ? How will you attach those ?

 

[Big Gus]

I don't know why anyone would want to build a pole building to use as a shop.

If all a guy wanted was a roof and walls to store stuff inside and didn't care one bit about the if the building lasted longer than 25-40 years, then build a pole building. We have a 40 year old Morton building on the farm and that thing is ****. Half of the poles have rotted off and had to be repaired, amongst many other things. I realize repairs on any structure are always needed, but when a building can't even last 30+years without MAJOR strctural repairs, it's **** in my book.

If a guy is building a shop, why not build something more substantial, something with a foundation, and actually have something when you're done. I think you'd be surprised at how little extra this would cost, as compared to having Morton or another pole builder come in and slap up a building. LOTS of markup in pole buildings.

 

[Strouty]

Is this going to be private or are you running a training facility or day camp type business? I would talk to different building manufacturers, they can tell you what they can and can't do. Most of the time you can get the engineering done free if you buy all the materials from them.

 

[Gruve]

The weight of the walls or the things you hang from the walls aren't the problem. How many 3 story 2x4 buildings are out there? It's the lateral loading on the walls from wind (or earthquakes) that limit the height. Without some other provisions at 20' you will probably need a taller stem wall, 2x8 or larger construction or engineered studs. The 2 story area is fine, because of the support gained from the diaphragm of the 2nd story. A pole building is strong because of the strength gained from a post buried in the ground. How strong will it be in 20 or 30 years when the strength of those posts are comprimised? I went with stick built for that reason and because of the ease of adding insulation, windows, cabinets etc. Pole should be much cheaper to begin with. If you add lots of windows (I did 20) or plan to insulate I think the prices would get much more comparable.

 

[BD1]

What's your location and area ? Do you have to get a permit ? Are there
building codes and inspection required ? Your local building and zoning
department may have some of your concerns in their regulations and or
book. Some towns can be strict as hell and others don't give a dam.
Your situation may vary.

 

[wrestlsimp]

Building near Spokane WA. 40lb snowload. I will be getting a permit to do the project. I think my mind is made up on going with stick built. The next step I am on before speaking to the engineer is getting the plans drawn up. I'm hoping I can get away with 2x6 walls, but we'll see. Anyone have any recommendations for getting plans drawn up, I've had a quote for $900 and one for $350.
This is about what I'm going for here:
http://www.cadnw.com/details.asp?plan=G2442B
With minor modifications, no garage door, no room above garage just high ceilings. I may just do the same on the height and go with vaulted ceilings. Plus enlarge the footprint to 45x25.

 

[wrestlsimp]

Sidewalls for the basketball side of my garage are 19 feet, plus or minus a few inches. It is 2 x 6 framed construction, on stem walls.

I think I'll end up with 2x6's on the walls. Hopefully not larger. Your garage looks great. Those are some TALL walls. How high did you go on your stem walls?

My footings needs to be 2 ft down just below the frost line. I am considering pouring concrete below ground level to help with insulation cost and thus the sidewalls wouldn't need to be so high. Any input on this?

 

[Gruve]

If you are in Spokane County you will not be able to build a 20' 2x6 wall unless you use engineered lumber. 2x8 would probably be the minimum. You might get 16' plus a 4' stem, but 4' of stem wall adds a lot to the cost. You will have to have it engineered for sure. I think anything over 12' has to be engineered in Spokane County.

 

[wrestlsimp]

If you are in Spokane County you will not be able to build a 20' 2x6 wall unless you use engineered lumber. 2x8 would probably be the minimum. You might get 16' plus a 4' stem, but 4' of stem wall adds a lot to the cost. You will have to have it engineered for sure. I think anything over 12' has to be engineered in Spokane County.

Deer Park, quite nearby. I'm actually in Mead, but yes, Spokane County. I'm sure I will have to have the walls engineered due to the height. I've never heard of engineered lumber. If I were to buy 2x6's would they charge more for a specifically "engineered" 2x6 then?

 

[Dustoff 35]

I think I'll end up with 2x6's on the walls. Hopefully not larger. Your garage looks great. Those are some TALL walls. How high did you go on your stem walls?

The height of my stem walls varies to match the grade of the hillside I built into. The lowest section is about 18 inches from floor to sill and it steps up in 2 foot increments.

I paid a local engineer $500 to draw up my plans about 6 years ago. This engineer had a working relationship with our local truss manufacturer, who built all the trusses and wall panels for my garage in their plant. The panels and trusses were later erected by a crew of carpenters in just a few days.

NUTTSGT brings up a valid point, if you are going to be suspending climbing ropes, you do need to think about anchor points high up in the wall or ceiling or both. An engineer would be able to spec a wall design or truss design that could accommodate the additional load of a climber falling off of a hand hold or toe hold. Perhaps some steel imbedded at the top plate of the wall for attachment points or steel spanning some of the scissor trusses...

Cool idea, BTW, a climbing wall in the garage...

 

[Toomanytools?]

Deer Park, quite nearby. I'm actually in Mead, but yes, Spokane County. I'm sure I will have to have the walls engineered due to the height. I've never heard of engineered lumber. If I were to buy 2x6's would they charge more for a specifically "engineered" 2x6 then?

An engineered stud is like an LVL beam, it's a laminated piece, like a sheet of osb but much stronger process.
http://www.bc.com/wood/ewp/simpleFraming/versaStud.html

 

[Gruve]

An engineered stud is like an LVL beam, it's a laminated piece, like a sheet of osb but much stronger process.
http://www.bc.com/wood/ewp/simpleFraming/versaStud.html

Yep.
I used standard 2x6 for mine, but there are additional structural elements planned (balloon framed 2nd story, lean-tos etc). One wall was 18' on 2' of extra stem wall. Also, I built in Stevens county, a lot different to deal with than Spokane.

 

[camarotoolman]

The metal studs work just like wood ones, everything is scewed to them instead of nailed. I worked on some building that were about that height, they work fine, We used the bigger 2x6 heavy gauge though. Also termits don't like steel, and they are made out of totally recycled material. Save some trees!

 

[Gruve]

I will resist the urge to get in a debate about saving trees (a renewable resource that employs many hardworking people in the area and actually stores carbon from the atmosphere rather than adding to it). But steel is an option, you would have a harder time finding a reasonably priced builder in Spokane that is as familiar with it as they are wood.

 

[wrestlsimp]

Thanks for all the input. I am rethinking the size of the sidewalls now. Received a quote from a couple contractors, and things are a little higher than I was hoping. I'm considering dropping to 12' sidewalls, still 45'x25', but I'd like to do one room 25x25 as a gym, and part of that room also with climbing. Any ideas for increasing the size of the wall where climbing? I could do cathedral ceilings, but that means heating the gym in the winter is next to impossible at a 8/12-12/12 pitch. Would it look strange, or just increase the cost a lot to have a split ceiling?

 

[Gruve]

Did you look into pole as well as the stick? What was the difference?

 

[Riverside]

Any new thoughts on this thread? I too am planning for a building with a ~20' ceiling, so I'm weighing the benefits of a rigid frame metal building vs. metal stud stick frame construction.