Pool Electrial subpanel

[Eers75]

First off thank you for this forum. I stumbled across it while I was researching subpanel installs. I apologize if this question has already been covered.

Were getting a new inground pool installed in a couple months. Before that happens my plan is to have the subpanel already installed and ready for the equipment. The equipment is going to be...

140k btu heatpump 36 amps
VS pool pump. 10.5 amps
Salt Water Gen. ? They only told me it's 110 or 220 and needs 20a circuit
Pool light. 4 led not sure on amps

10x20 Pool building with fridge and random lights etc.

Subpanel is going to be around 185' from the meter socket. (I have 2 open breaker sockets there)

My plan was to pull 2-2-2-4 to the 100amp panel. In the panel I was going to make sure the Neutral was not connected to the ground bar in any way. I was also going to install 2 grounding rods

So I work at a Power Plant. During lunch break I went to the electric shop and had a set down with the guys. They seemed to think what I'm doing is over kill. They told me a 60amp panel would be fine and that I would only need to pull 3 wires and just hook up the ground to the grounding rods.

Since then I have read so many articles and watched so many youtube videos my head is spinning. So what is your guys thought?

 

[DirtyJersey]

First off thank you for this forum. I stumbled across it while I was researching subpanel installs. I apologize if this question has already been covered.

Were getting a new inground pool installed in a couple months. Before that happens my plan is to have the subpanel already installed and ready for the equipment. The equipment is going to be...

140k btu heatpump 36 amps
VS pool pump. 10.5 amps
Salt Water Gen. ? They only told me it's 110 or 220 and needs 20a circuit
Pool light. 4 led not sure on amps

10x20 Pool building with fridge and random lights etc.

Subpanel is going to be around 185' from the meter socket. (I have 2 open breaker sockets there)

My plan was to pull 2-2-2-4 to the 100amp panel. In the panel I was going to make sure the Neutral was not connected to the ground bar in any way. I was also going to install 2 grounding rods

So I work at a Power Plant. During lunch break I went to the electric shop and had a set down with the guys. They seemed to think what I'm doing is over kill. They told me a 60amp panel would be fine and that I would only need to pull 3 wires and just hook up the ground to the grounding rods.

Since then I have read so many articles and watched so many youtube videos my head is spinning. So what is your guys thought?

Your pool equipment will most likely be fed from a panel at the equipment.
http://www.jandy.com/en/product-archive/controls/touch
The panel will control all pool equipment and any other outside post lights, fridge, outlets....

Jandy panels are the caidillac of pool panels and anything connected can be operated by remote. They also have basic panels the just do the basics.

The pool will have multiple grounds on it.

I think youll be fine with 60 amp panel.

Sent from my LG-K550 using Tapatalk

 

[Bert_]

First off 3 wire feeders are no longer allowed to be installed. Anything new must have a separate grounding conductor.

Judging from your numbers a 60A feeder would be marginal. Maybe not enough depending on what the lights and salt water generator actually draw. Do plan on having any other loads other than the ones listed?

I think you should stick with your plan of running #2 with a separate neutral and ground.

 

[Eers75]

Thank you for taking the time to relply. My pool builder does not think we need an automated system. We don't have a spa, spill overs, fancy jets etc. My plan is just to use a a standard outdoor subpanel.

 

[Eers75]

Bert it's always hard to tell what "might" get plugged in. That's why I was going for the 100amp. The only other item that I know we will use is a robot pool cleaner. I can't find amps on it either. It's converted from 110 to DC power.

Thank you for the info on the 3 feeder wires.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

First off thank you for this forum. I stumbled across it while I was researching subpanel installs. I apologize if this question has already been covered.

Were getting a new inground pool installed in a couple months. Before that happens my plan is to have the subpanel already installed and ready for the equipment. The equipment is going to be...

140k btu heatpump 36 amps
VS pool pump. 10.5 amps
Salt Water Gen. ? They only told me it's 110 or 220 and needs 20a circuit
Pool light. 4 led not sure on amps

10x20 Pool building with fridge and random lights etc.

Subpanel is going to be around 185' from the meter socket. (I have 2 open breaker sockets there)

My plan was to pull 2-2-2-4 to the 100amp panel. In the panel I was going to make sure the Neutral was not connected to the ground bar in any way. I was also going to install 2 grounding rods

So I work at a Power Plant. During lunch break I went to the electric shop and had a set down with the guys. They seemed to think what I'm doing is over kill. They told me a 60amp panel would be fine and that I would only need to pull 3 wires and just hook up the ground to the grounding rods.

Since then I have read so many articles and watched so many youtube videos my head is spinning. So what is your guys thought?

60a would be marginal at best. The heater and pump will eat up a majority of that.

You should definitely go bigger than that.

Keep in mind electric heat for a pool will be very expensive to operate. Any chance on going with gas heater instead?

#2 AL is limited to 90a in your application so keep that in mind.

@ 185' u will have voltage drop issues past about 60a continuous so keep that in mind.

As far as 3-wire vs 4-wire, the guys at the power plant are behind on code since 4-wire is now required (started with 08 code cycle).

here is a diagram:

they also dont understand what grounding electrodes are for. Grounding electrodes and EGCs/grounds are 2 different animals. Grounding electrodes are for lightning suppression. And EGCs provide a low impedance fault current path that gives breakers the ability to trip upon a fault condition.

It is a common misconception to confuse the 2. However, both are needed for a detached subpanel.

 

[Eers75]

Thanks Wylie that's great information there. The guys at the plant are not certified residential electricians. That's why I wanted to check there information.

Forgot to add the HeatPump is suppose to be much more energy efficient than a gas heater. I have neighbors with gas pool heaters they never use because it cost so much. Not sure how much better a heat pump is but I figure it's worth a shot.
https://energy.gov/energysaver/heat-pump-swimming-pool-heaters

 

[yeldogt]

I would do 100amp -- the additional wire cost is minimal. I have always used the Intermatic pool panels -- both of mine have two timers -- one for the pump and another for the cleaner. The pump timer has an interlock to keep the heater off if the flow or pressure switch fails. Also, have one with a built in transformer for a low volt light. Makes for a nice clean install without a lot of boxes -- I run my outdoor outlets, refrigerator and lights off of the panel.

 

[Eers75]

Thanks yeldogt. All my equipment is going to be Hayward. Maybe i will look into getting there automatic system and installing it instead of a normal subpanel.

 

[manwithtools]

If you are installing a Hayward salt system, light and heat pump; you need one of the Hayward Aqua Plus control panels. These have a 100 amp breaker panel built in with the automation and controller for the salt cell, pump control, light control and heater control.

It will take the place of a sub panel- it is a sub panel and control panel built together. If your pool guy knows even a little bit about pools he should have already recommended a Hayward Aqua Plus control panel or similar.

These can be expanded with remotes and other accessories in the future.

I'd be worried if he does not know about these panels at least enough to discuss them with you....

 

[Stuart in MN]

You didn't mention what state or country you live in - assuming you're in the USA, also remember that swimming pools have their own section in the national electric code. In particular there are specific rules about grounding and bonding. That section is outside my area of expertise so I can't provide more advice, but make sure whoever does the installation is familiar with the requirements.

 

[sberry]

The plant guys need some work. You want the number 2 and a 100
a panel and if they were even remotely informed would be familiar with the fact that most panels sold today are 100A, you can use them for 6o but havnt seen one in so long I cant remember. as Wylie pointed out it needs to be 4 wire, it will need ground rods and an insulated grounding conductor to the unit itself. Any bonding to it and metal parts will be 8 solid as I recall and as was indicated by another there is a section specific to pools.
Its been a while since I read it. I overheard a plumma and a customer talking about it in the aisle at one time and it was scary, neither one knew 110 from 240 and considering they were working on tubs and pools its scary. This will end up needing gfci breaker/breakers.

 

[yeldogt]

Thanks yeldogt. All my equipment is going to be Hayward. Maybe i will look into getting there automatic system and installing it instead of a normal subpanel.

Yes -- Look into the Hayward ... if you can integrate .. all the better. Both of my places have old time large rectangle pools w/chlorine. I just need simple timers to run the filter pump / cleaner and turn the underwater light on and off. Don't have any remotes or other fancy controls. Heater uses it's own internal thermostat.

 

[Eers75]

Thanks guys this has been allot of help! To answer some of the question..
I live In WV. I am aware of the bonding. I'm still reading up on it and watching all of Mike Holt videos

. That is one thing I will make sure is done for sure.
My Pool Builder is Leisure Pools. Because they have no installer in my area I'm buying factory direct. They have 4 crews that travel around installing there pools. Because it's straight from the factory they only install the pool and equipment. But they won't do any of the electrical or concrete. I have to hire people to take care of the rest. That's why I'm trying to do as much research as I can.
Thanks again for help guys. I think I'm going to upsize to #1 instead of #2 wire. I will also call my dealer tomorrow about the automation. When I buy the equipment from him I get it at cost. But if he can't ship it to me before the pool arrives I will just go to a local dealer and get it.

 

[Eers75]

Roughly 185'

 

[manwithtools]

If you are going to buy your own control panel, do yourself a favor and shop some online. You'll find that you can save as much as 50% over dealer prices.

 

[ard]

Be careful sourcing pool equipment- many (most?) Mfgs are basically eliminating ANY warranty. A $4000 system online and you will find absolutely NO warranty. $8000 from the pool company and 2 years. Frustrating. Read the documents, don't just reply on verbals...

I'd put in a standard power subpanel and deal with any fancy controls separately. Agree with 100A, jsut to have the room. You might want to add something to that pool building one day. There are control products (zwave, others) that can be used as well- as opposed to closed, proprietary stuff. I just put 4 zwave switches in for lights and one of the pumps (relay for the 240V 2HP pump). This way it can be integrated with my home automation.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Roughly 185'

whoops i posted in the wrong thread. u already said what the wire length will be...