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Porcelain or Ceramic?

p12nash

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So as my garage project is getting more and more underway, I'm approaching the point where I need to put a floor down. I have a pretty terrible 18 year old concrete pad (varying thickness, eroding surface, cracks, etc) that I'm going to clean up and dig up 2 spots to reinforce for a maxjax. When I do that I'm going to level the floor up a little bit, keeping it sloped towards the door a bit, and then tile it. I originally wanted to get porcelain tile, but seeing it is twice as expensive makes me question whether or not it's worthwhile. Do you think it's worth the extra money? This will be a combined wood and auto shop in a 2 car attached garage- I don't plan on having to deal with welding because I don't know how and don't own a welder. I looked for a class for a while but couldn't find one I could attend in the area. Its roughly a 21x21 space and I'm looking to do a black and white checkerboard pattern.
 
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Dakota00

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Porcelain is absolutely worth the money, if you plan to do the install yourself it will save you the money on the labor which off sets the price of the porcelain tiles. If you look around you can find some pretty good deals out there, I suggest hitting some tile shops not big box stores you'll be surprise what deals you can score. And always ask for a better price!!
 
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p12nash

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I already plan on doing the install myself. I'll Look into the tile shops around my area. Would you recommend I go for a dark regular grout to save money over epoxy grout or is the epoxy worth it as well?
 

PecosBill

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There are quite a few threads on this topic, but some quick points:

Porcelain is much denser than standard ceramic, so if it is in the budget, that is the preferable route. That being said, there are some around here that will show pics of projects they've done out of ceramic, and they're plenty happy.

Cementitious vs. Epoxy, well, that too can be argued. A 100% solids epoxy is pretty damn hard to beat when it comes to stain resistance. There are epoxies that are more user friendly, such as Mapei's Opticolor or Laticrete's SpectraLock. Cementitious grouts are easier to use and replace, and they have a much nicer finish, in my opinion.

As a guy who has been in the tile business for 30 years, personally, I would go with a Throughbody Color Porcelain with rectified edge, set tight joint, and a cementitious grout, sealed with a quality sealer. This is not a cheap route, but the results are well worth the additional cost.
 

Jack Olsen

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I love my ceramic tiles. But porcelain would be even better.

There are better tiles, as PecosBill points out. But Lowe's frequently has budget porcelain for $1/sf.
 
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p12nash

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How much weight would you the breaking strength should be? My car's 2800 lbs so would it have to be greater than 700 lbs?
 

Jack Olsen

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I never gave it a thought. Hard to imagine how a car could break any tile. Even when most of it is resting on one jack.

Jacked1268892394.jpg


All+Up1323038726.jpg


Again, mine are the cheapest ceramic tiles Home Depot sells.

Here's the 4-lb Sledge clip:

 

Dakota00

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I already plan on doing the install myself. I'll Look into the tile shops around my area. Would you recommend I go for a dark regular grout to save money over epoxy grout or is the epoxy worth it as well?

I would go with a darker regular grout and skip epoxy grout. I agree with Bill with his opinion on using a through body color porcelain with rectified edge, setting a tight joint.
But it will cost more and is less forgiving for a newbie installer.
 

PecosBill

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How much weight would you the breaking strength should be? My car's 2800 lbs so would it have to be greater than 700 lbs?

Compressive strength of most ceramics will be fine, as long as it's bedded correctly. Chipping resistance will be the big issue, especially at cushioned edges.

One look that isn't mentioned much, but is a popular one in industrial or commercial applications, is quarry tile. Quarry tile is pretty tough, even though it's not as dense as porcelain, and it also gains a patina over time as wear and tear gives it personality. It's fairly inexpensive, and is extremely easy to install. It is very porous though, and should be sealed. Just remember, even with sealing, expect staining and chipping to add to the future patina.
 

stanleyoutdoors

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Jack-
your youtube post says "I had to remove some tiles, so I took a 4-lb Sledge to one of them and recorded it to show how much tougher commercial tiles are than the ones in a typical bathroom."

Are yours commercial? I'm looking at cheap tiles- do they need to be "commercial?"
thanks
 

Jack Olsen

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I called them commercial because they don't look like something you'd put in a kitchen or bathroom. But no, mine are just the cheapest ones they had at Home Depot.

That said, tiles come with three ratings from the manufacturer.

First off, there's a P.E.I. (Porcelain Enamel Institute) Wear Rating:

Group I - Tiles suitable only for residential/commercial walls. Not suitable and/or recommended for foot traffic

Group II - Tiles suited to general light residential traffic, except kitchens, entrance halls, and other areas subjected to continuous foot traffic.

Group III - Tiles suited for all residential and light commercial areas such as offices, reception areas and boutiques.

Group IV - Tiles suited for residential, medium commercial and light institutional applications such as restaurants, hotels, hospital lobbies and corridors.

Group V - Tiles suitable for heavy traffic both residential and heavy commercial applications such airports, malls and subways.


Then there's a Water Absorption Rating:

1. Non-vitreous Tiles - absorb 7% or more of its body weight in water. They are suited for indoor use only and considered to be non-frost resistant.

2. Semi-vitreous Tiles - absorb between 3% to 7% of its body weight in water. They are suited for indoor use only and considered to be non-frost resistant.

3. Vitreous Tiles - absorb between 0.5% to 3% of its body weight in water. They are suited for both interior and exterior applications (covered and/or non-heated rooms not exposed to standing water) and considered to be frost resistant.

4. Impervious Tiles - are the strongest. They absorb between 0 and 0.5% of their weight in water.


Finally, there's COF (coefficient of friction), with a rating for both wet and dry. This is how slippery the tile gets when it's wet. I don't know what the typical range is for ceramic tiles.


My cheapo tiles have a PEI rating of 'IV' (residential, medium commercial and light institutional applications). Obviously, 'V' would be the absolute ideal for a garage.

My water absorption rate is 3-7%, which means the tiles are not frost-resistant or frost-proof, and wouldn't cut it in an exterior application in a part of the country with sub-freezing temps. But then, I would guess Home Depot probably sells more appropriate tiles in parts of the country where it does freeze.

My coefficient of friction is 0.60, wet or dry. I haven't found much on the internet on this, aside from the fact the City of Los Angeles building code requires that level surfaces have a COF of not less than 0.60 and ramps no less than 0.80 when tested. I guess that would mean I'm just slip-resistant enough to be used in the local shopping mall.
 

stanleyoutdoors

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Thanks jack
I was just at lowes and they had light beige porcelain pei=5 for .98 sq ft
I didn't see the other ratings
I want a checkr pattern so just need cheap black-ish now

Your tile looks a Lot like what I put in my basement btw
 

WVBrady

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...I agree with Bill with his opinion on using a through body color porcelain with rectified edge, setting a tight joint...

Why is it necessary to have a joint at all? Can they just be butted against oneanother without any gap?
 

zoras

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First post here, so I'll start off by saying hello everyone. I have really enjoyed reading this forum over the last few days and have come up with some great idea's for my future (hopefully soon) shop build.

I have been installing flooring professionally for the last 15 years, so I figured I might jump in on this conversation. Porcelain tile is without a doubt denser and stronger than ceramic, and you always get what you pay for. The cheap stuff Home Depot and Lowe's sells is not top quality tiles, usually seconds they get from a manufacture to sell off cheap. This isn't a bad thing of coarse, just making sure that everyone is aware.

That being said, whatever tile you decide to install will only be as solid and durable as the installation. Floor prep is key to having a solid floor, tile doesn't bend so having a flat surface is critical for a good install. High spots should be ground down, low spots filled and leveled, etc.

Setting the tile properly is the most crucial step to having a solid floor though, along with the quality of the setting material. Thinsets come in a wide variety of grades, and again you get what you pay for. A good polymer mortified thinset such as Ultraflex 2 works great for most residential and light commercial applications. Making sure the setting material is properly mixed is also crucial, too much water weakens the thinset, adding water and remixing after it starts setting up also weakens the thinset, etc.

General rule of thumb for tile installation is 90% coverage of setting material. In other words you want the tile set in the thinset completely, the other 10% comes from the ridges of the trowels. The trowel size makes a difference as well, I personally use a 1/4" x 3/8" for tiles under 14", a 1/4" x 1/2" for tiles over 14", and occasionally a 1/2" x 1/2" for extremely large tiles. Main thing is though, you don't want hollow spots in your floor, these are the weak spots, regardless of ceramic, porcelain, or marble.

Next you mentioned cracks in your existing slab. This is another problem area for any tile. You said you were reinforcing for a maxjax and level the floor up a little bit. I'm not sure what you mean by leveling the floor up a little bit, but I'll refer to what I said about floor prep. There are several crack solutions on the market you can look at, but a slip sheet is the most common I use. I've had several people, including reps from several manufactures, tell me that waterproofing compound works in the same way, but I guess I'm still a bit ole' fashioned and stick with what I know. I would suggest talking with the tile stores in your area, not HD or Lowe's because these people are not professionals, for a better understanding of crack solutions.

Grout is just personal preference, epoxy is better in my opinion for wet area's such as showers, but I've never had an issue with regular grouts in showers. Most problems with grouts arise from homeowners not properly taking care of their tile/grout. First off all grout should be sealed after it has had time to cure after a fresh install, and the better the sealer, the better it will protect and longer it will last. Wet areas such as showers and kitchen counters should be sealed regularly, at least every 6 months. Properly cleaning your tile and grout also extends the life and look of your grout. Harsh cleaners, especially bleach will deteriorate your grout. Sure it will kill some of the surface mildew, but you wouldn't have the mildew in the first place if properly sealed and maintained. I only recommend a 50/50 solution of vinegar and water for cleaning.

Grout joint size is also a personal preference, but 1/8" is as small as I would suggest on most floor tile applications. Tile is NOT all the same size, in fact most manufactures only guarantee a 1/8" variance on high end tiles. I can personally say the cheap stuff from HD and Lowe's is closer to 1/4" variance most of the time, and have seen 3/8" difference on really cheap stuff. Because of this, I wouldn't suggest a grout line less than 3/16", otherwise you wouldn't be able to keep the grout line's straight. This is usually the biggest factor in determining grout joint spacing, with personal preference following. To answer someone else above about butting tiles together with no joint, in theory yes, if all the tiles were the same size and had some sort of beveled edge to hold grout. In fact 12" x 12" marble and granite is installed like this, but even cheap quality marble and granite has a much tighter variance than even more expensive tiles. This is because they are cut with a cnc machine rather than poured into a mold.

There are a lot of benefits and drawbacks to hard tiles, depending on application. I have pondered for the last year what product would serve best in my shop build, and personally I believe I'll be going with VCT for several reasons. First of all it's cheap, you can buy most any color for around 50 - 75 cents per square foot. Secondly, it's easy to install and maintain, and properly installed it looks great. There is no grout joints to collect dirt, dust, and grease, which is a pain to clean btw, or interfere with rolling objects across the floor. It won't break from dropping a hammer or other large heavy tool, and it's quieter. It can gouge, if hit with a sharp object, but the tiles are easy enough to replace, even more so than hard tiles. A good commercial sealer and wax would last for quite some time, and most scuffs and marks can be buffed out.

I'm sorry, I seem to be rambling now, but I hope I have offered some insight, and I hope some of this information will help you make a better decision on whatever flooring choice you decide to go with. Best advice is don't take shortcuts. A bad flooring install, especially in a workshop, can be an expensive headache, and if your like me, I can find much better things to spend my time and money on.

Jon
 
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zoras

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Thanks, and yes, VCT is vinyl composition tile. Mostly used in large commercial buildings such as schools and hospitals, at least in this area. Not exactly a bulletproof floor by no means, but very durable and can withstand a lot of abuse, if installed and sealed properly, and easier to repair than hard tiles. But it really depends on application, for instance, I wouldn't recommend VCT for a shop that will do a lot of cutting and welding, it wouldn't be pretty. But for a lightweight auto shop, or especially a woodworking shop, absolutely.
 

Zogman

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Zoras, is VCT more commonly know as Linoleum??? Hospitals are more than usually laid down in sheets and not squares, right? Do they have sheets available in VCT as opposed to laying down sqaures. Your insight is awesome. Thanks

Z
 

JimVonBaden

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Zoras, is VCT more commonly know as Linoleum??? Hospitals are more than usually laid down in sheets and not squares, right? Do they have sheets available in VCT as opposed to laying down sqaures. Your insight is awesome. Thanks

Z

VCT is NOT linoleum. It is much harder, and much thicker.

Garagebuildstart01.jpg

Stacked in boxes.

Garage-Paint-New-Web-08.jpg

Test fitting.

Garage-Paint-New-Web-28.jpg

Done.

01Cabinets1.jpg

Used as a bench top.

Jim :cool:
 

zoras

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Jim, that floor looks great!

Zogman, the commercial sheet flooring you are referring to has all but replaced VCT in hospitals over the last 15 years or so. There are several manufactures of this sheet flooring, most of it is referred to as Congoleum. It is a vinyl based product, thicker than linoleum, similar to VCT on a sheet, but much more pliable. The seams are heat welded and are virtually invisible. Amazing product that I myself don't install, but have several friends that do.

Linoleum is a different product altogether. It comes in a wide variety of grades, usually rather cheap and one of the lesser quality flooring products I have ever worked with. However, there are some rather expensive high grade linoleum products on the market that make amazing looking floors, but you could install a chiseled edge travertine with a french pattern for the same money. But none of the linoleum products would make a good shop floor as they are rather thin, cuts easily, and would not hold up at all. Top that with the fact they are all but impossible to repair.

Jon
 

Zogman

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Great to know guys. i am in the pre permit submission time of my new garage which will be about 2800 sq ft and used for auto storage and restoration on a personal basis. I have already installed a Epoxy floor in my attached garage and I am only so-so satisfied with it and it was a quality product. Initially the porcelain tile seemd like a viable solution but cost on that will be pretty steep.

i redid my enclosed trailer a few years ago with what I think was a linoleum product of some sorts and that mars and dents very easily so I want to make sure I don't go that route.

Jim, great looking floor. How do you like it so far? Spill much oil and gas on it and has it worn well?

Thanks

Zoli
 

JimVonBaden

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Great to know guys. i am in the pre permit submission time of my new garage which will be about 2800 sq ft and used for auto storage and restoration on a personal basis. I have already installed a Epoxy floor in my attached garage and I am only so-so satisfied with it and it was a quality product. Initially the porcelain tile seemd like a viable solution but cost on that will be pretty steep.

i redid my enclosed trailer a few years ago with what I think was a linoleum product of some sorts and that mars and dents very easily so I want to make sure I don't go that route.

Jim, great looking floor. How do you like it so far? Spill much oil and gas on it and has it worn well?

Thanks

Zoli

Zoli,

Thanks, it was cheap and easy to install. I didn't seal it, so it will stain. However, a couple coats of the appropriate wax and it will do OK.

To be honest, were I to do it over again, I would use Porcelain. It can be had for nearly as cheap, and can be installed by a DIY pretty effectively.

Jim :cool:
 

slickgt1

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Good thread. p12nash click the links in my sig.

I say go with whatever you find cheapest, and that you like. I really can't see you breaking tiles. My X5 is 5000+lbs. I jacked up an entire side of it with one jack. I also did the same from the front. Pics are in the win thread.

I also do a lot of woodworking. My biggest problem is my low ceiling, 8'. So I end up dragging a lot of material on the floor. Just lifting a 4x8 sheet of 3/4" MDF or something as heavy, there is a huge chance I will smack my lights or sheetrock. I couldn't be more happy with the floor.

Jim, I just did a basement reno in VCT. I see where you come from, but VCT is still fairly soft. A lot of care, and caution would be needed in a working garage. I cannot see a way you can put jack stands on it without some plywood or something for protection. I had to drill through it a couple of times, and the drill go through like butter. This was my first time doing VCT. 2 of us did 800sq ft in one day. Stupid easy to lay down. Looks good, just not abuse worthy.

Zoras, even though you sound like you know what you doing, the grinding down, filling stuff is a bit extreme. I did a mud job without any prep to my floor at all. Only prep I did, was drilling huge holes in my slab around the crack, sticking in rebar, and filling with concrete. That cracked section used to move, hasn't moved in over a year. I agree in general though.

Still the abuse my tiles see, my next garage will get the same treatment. I just love the zero maintenance of it.
 

Herb67SS

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I wouldn't recommend VCT for a shop that will do a lot of cutting and welding, it wouldn't be pretty. But for a lightweight auto shop, or especially a woodworking shop, absolutely.

First of all, I want to thank all you guys, especially pros like Jon, for the time you spend providing all this great info to the rest of us. I appreciate it.

My concern re VCT in a garage where even light resto and repair work happens is how it may not respond well to automotive fluids like brake fluid, gas, laquer thinner, mineral spirits, or brake clean. While not always being spilled, it happens and then there goes several tiles and another repair task on a long list. Am I correct in this assumption?

Sorry to be so ignorant on this subject or if this issue is a rehash, but I too need to make flooring choice for my new garage and am in learning mode here.
 

zoras

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First off let me apologize to the OP and the rest of you, this thread asked about porcelain or ceramic and has sidetracked to a lengthy discussion on vct. This was never my intention.

I also want to clarify that I am in no way a fan of VCT. In fact, the first 10 years I was in business for myself I wouldn't touch the stuff, and the only reason I do now is because of the economy and we installers pretty much have to do whatever we have to do to pay the bills. I have for the most part made my living off ceramic, porcelain, and natural stone installations in some of the higher end homes in my area.

slickgt1, your absolutely right. I make floor preparation sound more intense than it has to be. But that being said, there are two types of installers around here, and in your area as well I'm sure.

There's the installers who are pretty much out to make a quick buck, and in all honesty, forces the rest of us to follow suit if we wish to get any work. They will do an installation for half of what it should cost, but will take multiple shortcuts on preparation, use cheaper setting materials, etc. Builders don't care as long as the finished product will sell and last for a year, and the cheaper the better.

Then there are installers like myself, and in all honesty, too picky about my own work. If I manage to get a job working for a homeowner who wants the job done right, and willing to pay for it, then all the steps I mentioned in the other post are dead on accurate. The installation takes twice as long, the results are much better, and I will stand behind the install as long as the homeowner does their part in maintaining their tile. Usually the only problem that ever occurs is foundation problems, and luckily that has nothing to do with installation. Most builders around here will pour a slab on Friday and the house will be framed on Monday.

Herb67SS, VCT is a very porous material, and will soak up anything spilled on it, so basically any type of automotive fluid would most certainly stain it, or even cause more serious problems if fluids actually penetrated to the glue. However, VCT is designed to be sealed and waxed, and there are a lot of different products out there for this purpose. Sealer and wax/polish would just add an additional layer of protection. VCT is a very resilient, easy to maintain floor.

So, after this whole conversation, listening to other peoples thoughts, reading lots of older posts on this very subject, and a lot more research, I've personally decided against VCT in a shop environment. First of all, sealed and polished VCT can be very slick, especially if it has been buffed. This could create lots of hazards, most of which is obvious. Snow, ice, leaking automotive fluids, and sawdust on a slick polished floor could spell disaster in a instant. I could just see someone sliding their car out the back wall of their garage after a few drinks with the guys or someone slipping in sawdust on a slick floor while cutting a sheet of plywood on that new tablesaw. Not a pretty picture and I wish no harm to anyone. So my official opinion on the subject now is don't use it.

And I want to apologize to the OP once again, the reply I should have just said to begin with is porcelain is denser and more resilient than ceramic, but either will hold up just fine if installed properly. Either one will break easily if you hit it with a hammer while holding it in your hand, but once installed, either one can take a full blow from a 4lb sledge without a mark.

Jon
 

slickgt1

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Great stuff Jon. You are absolutely right about customers willing to pay. I deal with this all the time.

And everyone FYI. Armstrong replied to a post not too long ago. They said they will not warranty any VCT in a shop environment, and do not approve installations in a garage or shop. The reason they quoted, is that it doesn't meet some fire codes. Just food for thought.
 

Herb67SS

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Veering this string off to VCT was my bad, but it turned out good. THANKS

Now, like the OP, I needed the input on cer vs por tile. Now if I could just find that $1 a sq ft stuff I like.....

Oh, and what should folks who live where winter temps go below the freeze point use for thinset so the tales stay down in the changing temps over the years? Is there a special product? And yes I have searched and been read my **** off. But there is a lot to read thru.

Tx
 

slickgt1

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I'm in the freezing temps. And I just used regular thinset. You can add kerabond to your thinset, it will make it stick harder.
 

Dakota00

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You can add latex to the thin-set for colder climates. But to do it right it's better to go with the Kerabond/Keralastic, which is designed for exterior thaw and freeze climates.
 

70Chevy

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Great all-around thread - good info for all types of tiles - pros and cons.
In the end, looks like the best thing to is search out the local bargain on porcelain.

Just to clarify - grout is just a cosmetic thing? Just to even out the irregularities in the tiles?
 

bdkruger1

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Great thread !!!! I personally would like to use Ditra under my tiles when I do my garage floor. However, at 1.69 sq./ft., it takes all of the cost effectiveness of doing tile away.
 
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