Porcelain tile install questions

[shurkai]

I have a few questions before I begin my tiling.

I will start with a brief description of the project. I have a new (2 years old) detached garage, 20'x28'. The slab is quite flat, 4000 psi concrete with fiber reinforcement and in excellent condition, no cracks that I have seen. I have control joints dividing the slab in half in both directions, quadrants. I am planning on tiling with porcelain 12"x24" through body PEI5 tiles.

So, now on to the questions, should I use a crack isolation membrane such as Redgard over the entire slab as a precaution for future cracking?

As it is a large format tile, would a large format mortar be better suited vs Kerabond/Keralastic?

Photo is from early on in the build.

Thanks!




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[mike93lx]

i don't think a isolation membrane is ever a bad idea. i've had good experiences with schluter ditra in my house. If i were doing that, I would follow schluter's recommendation on which thinset to use.

with 12x24, make sure you check the tiles for flatness. you will likely need to back butter.

 

[TTMotorsports]

We did the isolation membrane on our family room and the stuff came apart and made the tiles sound hollow a few years after install. On my old shop i did the office/bathroom directly onto the concrete and 2 years after I had 0 cracks or issues. I'm going to do the same on future applications as well.

 

[mike93lx]

We did the isolation membrane on our family room and the stuff came apart and made the tiles sound hollow a few years after install. On my old shop i did the office/bathroom directly onto the concrete and 2 years after I had 0 cracks or issues. I'm going to do the same on future applications as well.

That is a symptom of a bad installation

 

[jkeyser14]

I did my basement tiles directly on the concrete and would do it again that way. As long as the concrete slab doesn't crack it is perfectly fine.

 

[TTMotorsports]

That is a symptom of a bad installation

A tile guy who does good work and for years had the same problem with that product used on numerous jobs. So not bad installation but bad product for sure.

 

[mike93lx]

A tile guy who does good work and for years had the same problem with that product used on numerous jobs. So not bad installation but bad product for sure.

Same guy with a repetitive problem? Considering schluter's solid track record, I have an idea on where the fault lies. He may be laying it right, but is he checking for moisture penetration through the slab? Not using the right thinset? Lots of variables. The stuff gets put down with thinset. If it is coming up, the tile would have come up too

Either way, like nearly all things in life, there are lots of opinions on what is the best way to do things. This is no different

 

[TTMotorsports]

Same product with lots of different tile guys and same problem for all of them too. Bad product

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[03ranger]

Thinking outside the same box everybody uses, we did it a little different. No crack isolation membrane used; instead we used the control joints as a guide and place the grout line on the control joints. Instead of using grout to fill in on the control joint we used silicone sealer the same color as the grout that we used for the rest of the job. I’ve had no issues in six years in my garage or workshop.

 

[pvanderlugt]

Thinking outside the same box everybody uses, we did it a little different. No crack isolation membrane used; instead we used the control joints as a guide and place the grout line on the control joints. Instead of using grout to fill in on the control joint we used silicone sealer the same color as the grout that we used for the rest of the job. I’ve had no issues in six years in my garage or workshop.

This sounds like a fine plan to me..... make sure to backbutter those bigger tiles....

 

[ace10]

If your slab is free of shrinkage cracks, then I wouldn't mess with a membrane. IMO, it doesn't get you anything aside from cost and complexity.

The question I would have regards the surface texture. And which thinset you're going to use.

Regarding the layout, I agree that starting in the middle would be the way to go. Assuming you don't end up with slivers against the walls or the door.

I suggest a Schluter ramp profile for the front edge.

 

[drmarkr]

OP, I trust you've read thru Dakota 00's thread??? If not, do so. Ask your question there as well.

Porcelain in the main work bay of my shop remodel. No underlayerment, but I did use Mapei PrimGrip. And absolutely back butter....without a doubt.

 

[Dakota00]

A 2 year old concrete slab with no cracks, an uncoupling membrane is not necessary. As for the control joints, honor them if you can especially the center joint running down the middle.
If your garage will not be heated during the winter months, stick with using Kerabond/Keralastic if available in your area. If not, use FlexBond which is readily available at Home Depot.

I'll echo what has already been said... Back butter your tiles, very important!

 

[shurkai]

A 2 year old concrete slab with no cracks, an uncoupling membrane is not necessary. As for the control joints, honor them if you can especially the center joint running down the middle.
If your garage will not be heated during the winter months, stick with using Kerabond/Keralastic if available in your area. If not, use FlexBond which is readily available at Home Depot.

I'll echo what has already been said... Back butter your tiles, very important!

Great information...have read your tiling thread multiple times, it was my inspiration to tile my garage!

Let me make sure I understand what you mean by honoring the control joints, are you saying have a grout line run directly over them, or should I fill those joints with caulk that matches the grout?

With a 1/2 overlap pattern not sure exactly how I would not tile over the control joints.

Thanks to all for your input!

 

[duneslider]

Great information...have read your tiling thread multiple times, it was my inspiration to tile my garage!

Let me make sure I understand what you mean by honoring the control joints, are you saying have a grout line run directly over them, or should I fill those joints with caulk that matches the grout?

With a 1/2 overlap pattern not sure exactly how I would not tile over the control joints.

Thanks to all for your input!

If you tile directly over the control joints you can guarantee they will translate through. I have gone over this so many times with customers and they think I'm nuts every time until their tile cracks. So, if you are doing a running bond pattern you can still cut the tile over the control joint, yes, it does "mess up" the pattern but at the end of the day this is a garage and life will go on.

You could use a good crack isolation membrane on the whole floor and probably get away with not honoring the control joints unless you have vertical movement which would still cause issues.

I have used Schluter Ditra since it first came out and never seen a failure with it and highly doubt whoever said they had a failure with it installed it correctly or actually had a failure. But if one were to have a failure with it and had installed it correctly I can assure you Schluter would stand behind it. There were several companies that were making a "knock off" ditra style mat and I know there were lots of failures with that stuff, I wonder it it was a knock off that was actually used and not the real stuff.

Anyway, like Dakota said, kerabond/keralastic is a really nice mortar. Flexbond from Home Depot is also very nice and I have used it a lot. I actually believe Flexbond has more "advertised" flex than the K/K mortar. If you con't put a joint or saw cut over the control joints mother nature will most likely fix it for you. What I have done in the past is cut my tile over the joints and then put a thin 1/16" joint there (which happens to be about the thickness of a tile saw blade) that I keep clean of thinset and grout and then caulk with a silicone or polyurethane caulk at the end that matches the tile color best I can. It ends up not being a huge eye sore.

 

[Angelfire]

What I did with regards to the control joints, was just define the layout so the joints fell under grout lines. I did do a 1/3 running bond but basically split the space into 4 quadrants divided up by control joints. I ran tiles in a different direction defining this "cross" in the whole space and then within those quadrants, I did the running bond. I'll tack on a picture to help as it's not easy for me to explain. The control joints are marked in red. You may be able to see a bit more on what I did from my post on the tile install (Thanks again Dakota!!!) https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=388934
Cheers.

 

[Copymutt]

Everyone knows the two concrete guarantees. The number of sizable slabs I’ve seen w/o cracks aged too 20 yrs. is zero.

 

[TomcoPDR]

X1000 on thanking Dakota00 being the godfather of garage tiling.

Been stalking Gj learning tiles since I joined and always wanted tiling my garage (residential house at the time, never thought I’d go through)

Then it just clicked to me, especially when products came out making it easier for DIYer (like more YouTube videos, wider use of membranes, lippage/leveling wedges imho game changer)


Started with a 1,200 sqft garage condo. (Full Ditra; I’m in cold climate area)

Then in a 1968 built old slab (concrete floors chipped up) 2,000 sqft warehouse bay, just wrapping up the Reno’s... full Ditra as well. Followed perimeter gaps, with middle expansion joints using silicon (too cheap to use schluter rubber expansion joint product).

Will update the group in 5, 10, 30 years time lol. 1,200 sqft laid 2 years ago... 2,000 warehouse laid March, 2020 (first tile laid then, just finished the last tile Jan, 2021. Yes, it’s a part time Reno diy project lol)

 

[drmarkr]

Great pics Tomco....

 

[shurkai]

Tomco, looks fantastic!

 

[TomcoPDR]

Great pics Tomco....

Tomco, looks fantastic!

Thanks.

Shurkai, really hope you’d join “team porcelain” lol as what the GJ members calls it

 

[shurkai]

Well, I certainly will join the "team porcelain" club. Will post pictures as I make progress!

 

[shurkai]

Getting there…slowly

 

[Jayman17]

Drmarkr, your garage floor looks amazing love the running bond and light tiles you and the OP are using on your floors


Jay

 

[P0sTaL]

hey TomcoPDR, not sure if you mentioned it or not but what size did you use for tile.

 

[TomcoPDR]

hey TomcoPDR, not sure if you mentioned it or not but what size did you use for tile.

Both places, I used 2’x2’. (I guess 23.75”) I can’t imagine the boredom using 12x24”

 

[drmarkr]

Getting there…slowly

That looks great! Maybe I like it because it looks so much like mine, lol.....!! BTW, mine is working out great. Love how easy it is to clean up/maintain.

 

[stimpee]

So, a crazy question for those who did Porcelain....

I am struggling with the Porcelain vs RaceDeck decision. The porcelain has some distinct advantages overall. However I think that there are some limitations and concerns. One is minor, in that to keep the cost down, there are fewer tile choices in the "low cost" range, and therefore much less "excitement" in how I can manage the patterns and design of the floor. It is a garage, do not a huge deal, but something of note.

The bigger thing is related to the TIME and EFFORT it will take to install it. My net floor size in my 30x60 garage is about 1700 sqft. I am pretty confident that I could lay down the RaceDeck in a MAXIMUM of two days over the weekend. And that would taking things slow and easy. I have this picture in my mind that to do porcelain over the whole floor in 18x18 or 24x24 tiles would likely take me a month or two of some evening and weekend work.

Do any of you have any estimates or thoughts on how much time it took to get the job done?

Total cost for RaceDeck will be just a tad under $6k. I think doing the whole floor in porcelain between tile, thinset, etc is probably in the 4-4.5k range.

Maybe I should make a new thread...

 

[allinon72]

So, a crazy question for those who did Porcelain....

I am struggling with the Porcelain vs RaceDeck decision. The porcelain has some distinct advantages overall. However I think that there are some limitations and concerns. One is minor, in that to keep the cost down, there are fewer tile choices in the "low cost" range, and therefore much less "excitement" in how I can manage the patterns and design of the floor. It is a garage, do not a huge deal, but something of note.

The bigger thing is related to the TIME and EFFORT it will take to install it. My net floor size in my 30x60 garage is about 1700 sqft. I am pretty confident that I could lay down the RaceDeck in a MAXIMUM of two days over the weekend. And that would taking things slow and easy. I have this picture in my mind that to do porcelain over the whole floor in 18x18 or 24x24 tiles would likely take me a month or two of some evening and weekend work.

Do any of you have any estimates or thoughts on how much time it took to get the job done?

Total cost for RaceDeck will be just a tad under $6k. I think doing the whole floor in porcelain between tile, thinset, etc is probably in the 4-4.5k range.

Maybe I should make a new thread...

Tiling and grouting a space of that size eclipses the viability of a single person DIY, in my opinion. I would choose Racedeck all the way, or perhaps you could do a mix of the 2.

 

[ace10]

So, a crazy question for those who did Porcelain....

I am struggling with the Porcelain vs RaceDeck decision. The porcelain has some distinct advantages overall. However I think that there are some limitations and concerns. One is minor, in that to keep the cost down, there are fewer tile choices in the "low cost" range, and therefore much less "excitement" in how I can manage the patterns and design of the floor. It is a garage, do not a huge deal, but something of note.

The bigger thing is related to the TIME and EFFORT it will take to install it. My net floor size in my 30x60 garage is about 1700 sqft. I am pretty confident that I could lay down the RaceDeck in a MAXIMUM of two days over the weekend. And that would taking things slow and easy. I have this picture in my mind that to do porcelain over the whole floor in 18x18 or 24x24 tiles would likely take me a month or two of some evening and weekend work.

Do any of you have any estimates or thoughts on how much time it took to get the job done?

Total cost for RaceDeck will be just a tad under $6k. I think doing the whole floor in porcelain between tile, thinset, etc is probably in the 4-4.5k range.

Maybe I should make a new thread...

Is your slab tile-ready... Clean with some bite?

As for costs, when I eventually finish my 1650 ft2 tile install, my material costs will be in the $8-10K range.

The tile was $3900 alone, in early 2019. I've probably got $1500 in Schluter ramp, expansion joints and edging. Thinset suitable for LFT in a medium bed is $30/bag. Anti lippage consumables are a few hundred. Premixed acrylic grout $500.

 

[stimpee]

Is your slab tile-ready... Clean with some bite?

As for costs, when I eventually finish my 1650 ft2 tile install, my material costs will be in the $8-10K range.

The tile was $3900 alone, in early 2019. I've probably got $1500 in Schluter ramp, expansion joints and edging. Thinset suitable for LFT in a medium bed is $30/bag. Anti lippage consumables are a few hundred. Premixed acrylic grout $500.

Slab is "fresh" and just needs to be cleaned, since it has some dusty construction dirt on the surface from the recent build. However the slab is pretty smooth, so probably not a lot of bite.

Interesting note on the materials, since I only figured on maybe 500-1000 over the cost of tile, and it looks like you are WAY above that.

The "eventual" finishing thing is what is killing me on this. Knowing I could get the RaceDeck in over a few days, or even if it took a week or so, is a big winner to getting into the space and being able to use the building. I fear the porcelain project would become the "Never Ending Story"...

 

[drmarkr]

The 30x30 woodshop portion of my building has racedeck (Costco motofloor, actually) and it is absolutely easier/faster to install. It is a checkered flag, Black/white pattern that I installed in 2007. It is also a pain in the *** to keep the white tiles clean. Absolute PITA.

If you decide to use RD, I recommend something like a medium grey, with the goal of being able to see parts on the floor, but not having it too light in color so that grease/grime/stains show so badly.

The porcelain is amazing, but it is definitely time/effort/money to install. Cannot deny that.

 

[drmarkr]

One more comment on Racedeck style tiles....mine is the solid tile. Our first shop at the race track had the "drain through" style tiles (can't recall the proper term) that allows fluids to run through to the floor. I absolutely hated that stuff, for a couple of reasons! First, you cannot kneel on it/lay one it. It hurts like hell to do so. Second, if you drop a small part, you'll be cussing for 10 minutes while you go get a magnet, and then jack around trying to pull it out of the cracks. Only to find out its not magnetic, which now requires a pair of hemostats and another 5 minutes of cussing while you try to retrieve the part.

If you get this style of tile, IMO, it's a mistake not to get the solid tiles.