Porcelain tile shopping list & tips

[2slow]

Thanks to everyone's replies to my previous thread, I have committed to tile the floor in my barn. The area is about 23x29 (670 ft^2). Currently looks like this:

These are the materials I plan on using, am I making any mistakes?

Rent a diamond grinder to remove paint:
http://www.tooltimerental.net/uploads/3/0/1/2/30120039/floor-carpet_tools.png

Through body porcelain Tile , PEI 5, rectified, light gray in color, 12x24x3/8 from build direct (I wanted 18x18 but they were out of stock)
http://www.builddirect.com/Porcelain-Tile/-Clay-Fresca/ProductDisplay_6933_p1_10081568.aspx

Flex bond thinset from Home Depot
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Custom-B...0-lb-Fortified-Thin-Set-Mortar-FB50/100122448

Reno U transition from Home Depot
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Schluter...vibyzh&cm_mmc=CJ-_-6147012-_-11210757&cj=true

Mapei Ultra color plus grout special ordered from Lowes
http://www.lowes.com/pd_593384-1295...rentURL=?Ntt=ultracolor+plus+grout&facetInfo=

Since I had to go to a 12x 24 tile to get them before it gets too cold out (barn is heated but I didn't want to take too many chances) I am going to do a brick pattern staggering each row 1/2 tile.

I think I am all set, but do have some questions about the floor drain in the center. I will post pictures but it slopes down about a 1/2 inch locally around the drain. Do I build that up with thinset, or should I cut the tiles to smaller pieces in that area to help them conform to the depression?

 

[CitadelBlue]

I've only seen cut tiles toward a floor drain and it never looked right. Suggest you cut the tile maybe use cardboard pattern and do it right.
I do recommend you spread your thin set on the floor AND butter your tile to ensure you get a good adhersion (hopefully that is spelled correctly).

 

[Rod N]

If you do a brick pattern I suggest you stagger the tiles 1/3, not 1/2.
This way if you are out a bit you won't see it.
This is what I did at my office when I did the floor.

 

[slickgt1]

It all depends what the plan, and how the tiles will land by the drain. It is one of those areas that you need to play with for a bit. The cuts will make it a focal point, just because it will not look uniform, so you need to come to terms with that right away. It is also hard to judge how it would look visually, as I can't picture the slope, or length of said slope. It might even be smart to use a completely different tile, something mozaic like, and highlight the drain.

You can cut up one of your main tiles, but I am recommending 3/4" squares if you are a rookie, and don't have a nice saw and blade. Cutting them up this small will ****.

My tile guy got it looking nice one time, but that is a lot of work a novice should not try, at least not without a really nice wet saw and a really nice blade on it.

He basically took a giant square tile, cut a hole for the drain through the middle. Then he put the tile over the drain, and use a compass to space the slots. Then he free hand drew on the tile the lines projecting out to the edges, marking them 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and so on. It was like 50 cuts, about 1' thick by the drain. Why I say you need a good saw and a good blade, because imagine you break one of those 50 slivers, at lets say sliver 47. You will get pissed like no other. Then you have to set all 50, in order, at the same time, and manage to adjust them all to look good. This being said, this is what I would do, after seeing the process.

 

[Radix2]

A brick pattern will add to the challenge to avoid lippage, with a 1/2 overlap the most difficult ( think about how the overlap constrains the tile from following curves).

Tiles should be back buttered (covered with thinset and the excess scraped off with the flat side of the trowel). A 1/2x1/2 or 1/2x3/8 trowel will be needed on the floor. Check your floor for flatness and understand where you need to compensate - big tiles need a flatttt floor.

There are clips that can help keep tiles level, but they do take some practice to use as well - look at the L.A.S.H. clip system they sell at the box stores - what they do is lock the edges together as you set to minimize lippage.

 

[Shea]

A 6' level or straight edge works great as a template for keeping nice even lippage.

 

[Dakota00]

Stay away from any type of tile leveling clips, especially on a garage floor!! As these clips will cause voids under your tiles. Which could result in tiles cracking if heavy weight is applied to the void spots.

If you have any pics of the drain and slope around the drain, please post them up!

 

[2slow]

I appreciate the 1/3 overlap tip for the brick pattern. Sounds like the way to go for lippage.

I called the tool rental place and they said I had two options for removing the paint:

1) Diamond grinding - they said the paint would gum up the diamond stones and I would have to keep going into and out of the paint.

2) Some sort of an attachment on a floor machine. (They thought this might work better for the paint, but leave a rougher surface.) I will have to get more details.


The floor has 3 coats of an oil based paint that is about 1 year old. Any suggestions as to the proper equipment to remove are appreciated.


I am paying a guy that lays tile to do the job. He has done work in my home and is good. He will back-butter all tiles. He does not like to use clips or spacers. I like the mosaic idea around the drain, I will have to see if I can find something that matches as I would not want to make him do it by hand.

The local pitch towards the drain probably is more like a 1/4" to 3/8" drop. (see images) Do you think that is too much to just build up with thinset?

 

[Dakota00]

It's best to remove all the coating if possible, but if that can't be done. I suggest roughing up the paint surface, then applying a mulit-surface bonding primer. Like one of these, http://www.custombuildingproducts.com/products/surface-preparation/surface-primers/mbp.aspx
http://www.mapei.com/public/CA/products/6324_ECO_Prim_Grip_EN_lr.pdf

Once the product is cured, then you can start tiling.

Seeing as you are having a pro to do the work. He should be able to handle the slope around the drain without any issues. That's including building up the area with thinset if need be.

 

[2slow]

Thanks for the reply! I would be more comfortable removing the paint, so that is my plan. Just looking for the best way to do so.

The tile guy said he could build up the gap with thinset, but I once did something like that on a home install and ended up with a cracked tile. He is a pro and I am not though. Just looking for the pro opinions here.

 

[Dakota00]

Maybe try a chemical stripper? Whatever doesn't come up, finish off with a floor grinder.

 

[OJ Bartley]

I'm trying to picture how the drain will look after the tile... if you build up around it, will it be a big drop to the drain, or will you be able to raise the grate? I think (depending on where it is) a mosaic might look cool, and allow the drain to function just like it was intended.

 

[2slow]

I thought about chemical stripper, but it has already dropped below freezing out here and I do not want to deal with getting water to the pressure washer. I have not found one that I can apply, scrape off and not have to rinse.

I have the heat in the building set at 60 and will leave it there until after the tile is down a few days to ensure the slab is warm enough.

If I built the tile up, I would raise the drain grate to the same level. I am going to hit the local stores tomorrow to see if I can find a mosaic that might look OK.

-Joe

 

[Dakota00]

You can also take the existing 18"x 18" tiles and cut them up into roughly 4.5"x 4.5" sizes. Which takes no time with a snap tile cutter. Using these smaller pieces around the drain area for slope. I would also raise the drain grate below the tile height and make a cover using a full size tile (cut to size) "fixed" to the grate to cover it up.. Having a 1" gap all around so the water can easily drain.

Something like this...

Here's a grate cover I made for one of my clients. He preferred to have the holes in the cover instead. (pic was taken when test fitting the cover)

 

[2slow]

Some internet research suggests this tool the "scape away" might be the ticket for removing paint. It attached to a regular low speed floor machine. I just have to see if I can find one for rent.

I am going to head to some stores later today to see what mosaic options are available for the drain. If that does not work, I will probably just have the tile man make some 6"x6" tiles out of the 12 x 24s as they should blend in well.

The tile drain covers look cool, but without support I fear they could crack. I think I will just raise the existing drain cover.

 

[Dakota00]

I forgot you're going with 12x24, lol.

The drain covers I made have a aluminum backing plate on them. So driving over them wouldn't crack the stone tile. Yes, that's not porcelain tiles, it's Lava stone.

 

[Rod N]

You can pay people to do this for you?
Now you tell me ! Lol

I would just keep it simple and raise the drain. Pretty easy to cut a circle in the tile.

 

[509SC]

You can pay people to do this for you?
Now you tell me ! Lol

I would just keep it simple and raise the drain. Pretty easy to cut a circle in the tile.

The problem with doing that is the water won't "self-drain". And when you squeegee the water toward the drain, very little will make it's way in. I would "honor" the pitch and cut the surrounding tiles into smaller pieces.

 

[2slow]

The project started this weekend. Saturday was spent removing the existing paint. This went _very_ slowly. It took nearly a full 8 hour day with me helping my pro to get it all off.

I rented a machine that had two counter rotating wheels that each had 3 carbide bits. It worked OK for a little while, but the carbides got dull very quickly. We ended up using all 4 edges. I was generally disappointed in the tool. I was removing 3 coats of oil based paint, not epoxy and it was very slow.

This is the floor completely scraped:

Today, my tile guy started laying the tile. It was a little bit of a slow start, but he thinks he will be pretty close to done laying tomorrow. Here is where we stand:

 

[Dakota00]

What happened with the 2 last rows that were laid? Pattern is wrong!!

 

[2slow]

Yeah, I know. My guy got off a tooth. I called him about that and he said he must have messed up and to pull the tiles. I pulled those rows up, scraped the thinset off the floor and washed all the tiles before anything hardened. I think he measured the 8" from the wrong end of the tile.

 

[Dakota00]

Good to hear you removed the tiles before they set. Otherwise looking great!

 

[OJ Bartley]

Yikes! I was going to say it looks great till I saw Dakota's comment, and checked the pattern. I hope he's doing the rest of the job well, that would make me nervous from a "pro". Fingers crossed!

 

[Rod N]

What happened with the 2 last rows that were laid? Pattern is wrong!!

I know tiling is a drinking sport but come on!

 

[motofool33]

nice progress

 

[Track t-4]

Good catch, Dakota!

 

[2slow]

Tile guy made good progress today. Pattern is fixed now. I was surprised that Dakota picked that up so quickly. Currently it is about 2/3 layed. I think he will have it ready for grout tomorrow.

 

[Dakota00]

Good catch, Dakota!

Pattern is fixed now. I was surprised that Dakota picked that up so quickly.

Guys, I'm a tile/stone setter by trade... Stuff like that is fairly easy for me to spot out. That's why I'm on this forum, to guide and to save you guys from F-ing up!!

 

[Track t-4]

That's why I'm on this forum, to guide and to save you guys from F-ing up!!

I've read your thread and various comments/suggestions on this site and you're doing a super job of that. Thanks for being there!

 

[2slow]

The floor is mostly layed. Tile guy still needs to finish inside the furnace room, around drain, and grout / install cove base. He should be done tomorrow.

The job looks pretty good.

I almost never pay anyone to do anything and can nit pick some things about the job. The grout lines are a little bigger than I wanted. Some tiles have a little more lip-age than I would have tolerated if doing it myself. Most concerning, some of the extreme edges / corners of the tiles do not have solid thinset contacting the tile. (this was actually due to the way he "back buttered" He spread thinset on ground first, than back buttered the tiles, but when he back buttered he did so relatively thick and probably only covered 95% of the back of the tile. So when it was set down there would sometimes be sometimes be a small gap between the tile and the thinset on the ground at the extreme edges where the tile was not back buttered.)

That said, he will have the entire job done in 5 days including removing the paint and reinstalling the cove base. If I was doing it myself, it would take me months...

Overall I am happy and hope it will last a lifetime.

This was the status tonight:

 

[Dakota00]

Most concerning, some of the extreme edges / corners of the tiles do not have solid thinset contacting the tile. (this was actually due to the way he "back buttered"

Seeing as how he rushed the job, you better make sure he takes his time and does a proper job of grouting. That means packing the joints (fill the voids) with grout so the edges will be somewhat protected from shearing.

EDIT: That's why I stress my point, that a proper installation is key for a tiled floor to be able to take the abuse and still last a lifetime!

 

[slickgt1]

Seeing as how he rushed the job, you better make sure he takes his time and does a proper job of grouting. That means packing the joints (fill the voids) with grout so the edges will be somewhat protected from shearing.

EDIT: That's why I stress my point, that a proper installation is key for a tiled floor to be able to take the abuse and still last a lifetime!

When i finished all my tiles, i tapped each one. I found 2 with voids. I mixed up a very watery thinset/grout mixture and let it flow in. Fixed it up quite well. Doubt this is feasable for an entire floor.

 

[OJ Bartley]

2slow, it looks great!! I know what you mean about the small problems, and my floor has some of the same, despite me thinking I would be able to avoid it. I did try to make sure I had no voids as a main priority, but there are a few lips and uneven gaps that I just left alone. I think the key for strength will be as Dakota and slick said, make sure the grout is done well. I have a few spots from my first section (never having done grout before) where I wiped a bit too much away and it lies too shallow. Live and learn. A pro should be able to avoid that no problem.

 

[Dakota00]

2slow,

Any updates? Floor done?

 

[2slow]

Floor is done. I will try to post some pictures tonight. Cove base is up and it all looks good.

The grout dried quite a bit lighter than the sample card. A Mapei rep is going to come out Wednesday to look at it. It is the right color when wet, but light when dry...

Thanks for all the help and advice!

-Joe

 

[Dakota00]

Lighter grout color could be due from over washing. OR too much water in the grout when mixed, basically washing out the color from the grout. They might recommend a color enhancing sealer. Which may work, or may not... Making the grout look even worst resulting in a blotchy color finish. If you go this route, do a test spot in a small section you wont see.

 

[Track t-4]

2slow,

Did you use the Ultracolor II?

 

[2slow]

I used Mapei Ultracolor plus in warm gray:

http://www.lowes.com/pd_185276-1295-69325000_0__?productId=3510404&CAWELAID=1518407572

When I called Mapei, they were very surprised to hear that it turned out light. They said the Ultracolor was formulated in a different way than the standard stuff and it should not have happened. The Mapei rep was surprised enough that he said he wanted to send his rep to take a look at it / get a sample of what was left in the bags.

He suggested it could be haze, so I have been cleaning it with a solution of one part white vinegar to 3 parts water. Here is what it looked like tonight, all be it a little wet...

 

[JoeMayo]

I'm slowly looking at porcelain over epoxy now. At 1.99 a tile it looks better than 5$ a sqft the epoxy guy wants.

 

[2slow]

All in, I have over $6/ ft^2 into it.

Scraping the floor cost over $300 for the rental tool, and carbide bits. Either the tool stunk, or the oil based paint was pretty good stuff...

Tile was 2.29/ft + shipping from build direct = $2,200

Used 16 bags of thinset @ ~$30/bag = $480

4 bags of grout @ $50/bag = $200

Tile guy = $1600

Ignoring the paint scraping I have about $4500 into a 675 ft^2 area

If you can find a good deal on tile and do it yourself, it would be cheaper than epoxy by a bit. If you hire the job out and can't find a tile you like in the clearance aisle, it gets pricey...

Hopefully it is done once and forgotten. I can not say the same for epoxy. I have too many friends that spent $5/ft2 for epoxy just to have it wear...

If you want something cheap and can live with hot tires picking it up, this is the oil based paint I used, and it was tough stuff when trying to remove it.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_46516-4-057.0002000.007_0__?productId=3343608